FX Impact M3 vs. CZ 457 .22LR - How close are we getting?

[Cranky1]

I do see the point, and if we're going to compare high end guns we really should compare the M3 to a Vudoo or Anschutz, and not a medium quality rimfire. And I also agree that off a solid bench or solid ground, with exact distance and no time constraints, they "might" be close. I also think we're not comparing costs, the topic seems to have been if the Airgun is getting close to the Rimfire in accuracy - 50, 100, 200 yards, etc.

Using the Airgun in NRL-22, PRS, or XFT type competition, the accuracy is still a significant difference with the Rimfire on top. We've seen it for the past year at the Phoenix XFT, and at NRL-22 events across the country. Take a look at the NRL-22 Nationals 2020-2021 to see how close the Slug Airgun is to the high end Rimfire. Out of the 196 entries, the top Airgun shooter finished 111th, and the second Airgun shooter was at 168th.

You can also look at the recent N50 events where the Rimfires routinely outscore the Airguns. Yes, Airguns are making progress, but they still have a ways to go... One factor might be that airguns are just harder to shoot. If you've ever shot off bucket and sticks at 100 yards with both, you know exactly what I mean. I shot my .25 Impact with NSA 43.5 grain slugs (900 FPS) at 100 yards off bucket and sticks, then Mike Smith's .22 Vudoo, and the Rimfire was SO much easier, probably due to the much much shorter lock time....

It’s funny you mention lock time, I feel I need a lot better follow through with my airguns. I had a buddy that was a competitive skeet and trap shooter, used to shoot at the ata grand. He swapped from his beretta to a blazer, he consistently shot 2-3 more birds per 100. I actually got to meet some upper guys from blazer they claimed the faster lock time helped tremendously. The one guy used to work for cz and really praised. 


i would say the faster lock time, lighter hammer strike and less moving parts are all in favor of the 22rf

 

[L.Leon]

And in the RF world, that CZ is like a daisy in our AG world.

Not really. CZ makes excellent barrels, and that's the only component that absolutely has to be excellent for precision accuracy. Everything else is ergonomics of some sort. A good trigger makes a big difference in the ease (or difficulty) of shooting the rifle well, but it makes it no more accurate. Same can be said of the stock, bolt operation, etc. But in terms of the mechanical production of accuracy, most CZ rifles compare well with much more expensive rifles. Which may have little to do with pride of ownership.

@elh0102, I agreed, my CZ rifles and pistols have been very accurate, and consistently so. The Daisy reference means nothing. The Czechs are known for making awesome rifles and pistols.

 

[tommyb]

here are a couple N50 targets I shot at Rio Salado in their crazy wind conditions in the N50 Pro Class. In pro class you are scored with a.224 plug and not a 35 caliber one. This was shot with a Thomas Benchrest Slug gun and slugs were made by me. The rifle will shoot with a.22 LR Benchrest rifle. The nut behind the trigger is the big factor. It is a big eye opener no to be scored with a.35 plug. I don’t practice with it and shoot it maybe 2 times a month. It is a tack driver but I also have a Vudoo tactical rifle. I have to give the edge to the Vudoo but the more I shoot the Thomas the better I am getting with it. It is very capable to consistently shoot in the high 240’s if not 250’s. On the Extreme FT and NRL22 matches the .22LR in my humble opinion wins hands down. Just for anyone’s information my other card was a 239 12 x. 
Let the barbs begin!

No barbs from me anyway. Good shooting with that Thomas. Yeah, when I use that .223” scoring plug with my Anschutz custom 1907, there’s very little room for error when you are trying for high scores in Pro class.

I posted the 2021 aggregated summary of N50 match scores for reference, because of the interest in AG and RF comparisons.

http://national50.org/results/

 

[thomasair]

Here is some interesting info about lock time. The average “lock” time for a human being to operate a trigger is 200-300ms. This means that it takes 200-300ms for your finger to accomplish the task of pulling the trigger after your brain tells it to.

Air rifles will vary from 5-15ms depending on their design.

22LR from a longer barrel version is about 2.5ms. Six times faster than the worst airguns and twice as fast as the best. That sounds like a massive difference when you frame it that way.

So in real time….22LR can be as much as 12.5ms faster than the slowest airguns and 2.5ms faster than the fastest. When you add in the time and variability in our brain to finger lock time, it becomes completely insignificant since the brain to finger is around 100x slower.

When a human tries to “measure” lock time it relies on its senses. This means that vibration and noise are part of the data collection…while the actual exit time of the pellet from the barrel is impossible to figure. If you want to make an air rifle feel real fast you can tune it very lean and work hard to dampen any residual vibration. If you want to make it feel slow….tune it to use a lot of air or let a spring twang a little after the shot. Of course in any form you have not actually changed the lock time….but your brain will tell you that you did.

Perception and anecdote are very powerful sales tools for creating significant differences in insignificant features.

Mike 

 

[steve-l]

Mike, you are correct of course, but the best shooters never pull a trigger. They slowly press the trigger, not knowing when it releases. During that time the shooter must concentrate on the target/sight view. I know that is easy to say, but superb concentration is required to execute that consistently, where the trigger action, sight concentration and body stillness are 3 separate, unrelated actions. You not only have lock time, but barrel time as well to deal with. It is not instantaneous, that is why follow through is so important. Consider how difficult that is when you have a flash pan full of burning black powder in your peripheral vision and up to 3 seconds of lock time plus ignition time plus barrel time in the case of a musket. God bless Davy Crockett!

 

[thomasair]

Steve….of course that is correct too….and that makes lock time even more insignificant.

Lock time is a good sales tool, though.

Mike 

 

[elh0102]

When a human tries to “measure” lock time it relies on its senses. This means that vibration and noise are part of the data collection…while the actual exit time of the pellet from the barrel is impossible to figure. If you want to make an air rifle feel real fast you can tune it very lean and work hard to dampen any residual vibration. If you want to make it feel slow….tune it to use a lot of air or let a spring twang a little after the shot. Of course in any form you have not actually changed the lock time….but your brain will tell you that you did.

Perception and anecdote are very powerful sales tools for creating significant differences in insignificant features.

Mike

Very true last statement. I'm reminded of the high fidelity salesperson who brags to an audiophile about the frequency response that a piece of equipment can produce. But, what isn't said, it's beyond the range of human hearing!

 

[UpNorthAirGunner]

I just checked in on this post after being pretty tied up with a crazy week of work, and all I can say is WOW! This kind of conversation is what makes AirgunNation so fricken awesome. So many good points and counter points.... Finally quit snowing today so I will head back down that jeep trail to continue my testing. In the past week, I have had quite a few shooters reach out to me with additional details from my initial findings and research on precision .22LR. What kind of chamber you are running in your .22LR also play a part of velocity potential as far as burn rate and SD / ES. It is a fun rabbit hole to go down. And yes, Josh and I are working on this project together.... He just got his M3 this week in a really awesome .25 cal pellet tuned rig from Justin and Utah Airguns so he has been picking my brain as well on the airgun side. Josh is just as good at talking trash as he is at shooting. Here is his video:

https://youtu.be/iNZc4anrRs4

Josh is also a brother in arms serving in the Army. I couldn't let this opportunity pass to unleash some good ol' fashioned 19K Tanker trash talking... So here was my response:

Josh from Pursuit of Accuracy called me out for some head-to-head precision shooting challenges.

He just got his FX Impact M3 this week from Utah Airguns so while he practices and gets familiar with it, I’ll use this time to ACCESSORIZE my CZ 457 .22LR! I figured if I can’t beat him with skill, I will throw him off with some RAZZLE DAZZLE baby!

The barrel bling from my SilencerCo muzzle brake will have him puzzled (as am I quite honestly), the thermal cover over my Element Optics Titan will give him scope envy (no Josh, they don’t make these scope covers in junior miss sizes), running the 419 bolt knob and 30 MOA rail, and the Accu-shot Monopod in the rear will send indecisiveness racing through his mind as he fumbles with his DIY sock rear bag that also oddly smells of Vaseline. Oh… and I have STICKERS! Two of them!

Josh is heading off to Warrant Officer school soon (the most useless rank in the Army other than Corporal E-4) so we all should wish him good luck. I’ll have a warm McDonald's Happy Meal (girls version) waiting for him when he returns using the money I saved shooting my FX Impact M3 Airgun with Patriot Javelin slugs vs. that expensive Gucci ass ammo he has to shoot just to keep his SD/ES out of the double digits.

 

[rigbymauser]

Both the Impact and the CZ has its time and place. 


Back in the 1970s the advantage of shooting pellet guns was they were cheap in ammo, and you could use them where the .22Lr became too dangerous for the surroundings. The socalled “magnumspringer” appeared in the 1980s but yet it was still a gun one could shoot in the backyard and nobody cared. It was still after all a pelletgun right?. Things changed in 2000s where really powerfull pcp guns turned up. I had a Theoben Rapid in 25cal that did 721 ft/ sec with a 50grain lead bullet made for .25 acp. When it went through 2 inches of soft wood at 30 meters I realized it wasn’t just a “BB” gun that wasn’t dangerous. I had now to take the same precautions as I would have to with a .22Lr. The gap of a powerfull pcp and a .22Lr was now less. It was fun as it was impressive( at that time) how the airguntechnology have moved and look what we have here in 2022!!..Airguns that can shoot fullauto, semiauto and +100 ft/i s with great accuracy. I would say a sub 20 ft/ ibs is a backyard gun. From here things can become a slight more critical safetywise.

 

[shaunnj007]

I actually started using my FX Impact M3 for NRL22 competitions and am kicking the crap out of high end powder burners and pissing a lot of people off that an Airgun is beating them.

 

[Seeker]

Not close at all... With that Impact you better have an HPA source handy as well as spare O rings and sundries. With the CZ? Just a brick or two of good ammo and you're good for months.

Very well said. Plus just compare the price of these guns. @UpNorthAirGunner shoots M3 which is not stock at all and you need to spend 500+$ extra (in addition to the 2000+$ base gun) to achieve the power level of the weakest .22LR. You need a 700mm+ whip to achieve that. I would say THIS is insane. Airguns are just toys and let's stick to that.

 

[Removed]

The M3 must be the best Airgun on the market otherwise I doubt @UpNorthAirGunner would be using it almost exclusively.

 

[jps2486]

So there's this:

The FX costs almost $1500 more than the CZ, PLUS the price of a compressor and tank. So $2000 more for marginally better accuracy and almost the same power, running wide open.

I think the higher ammo cost is a bit of a moot point considering the difference in initial investment. FWIW, the one I had shot the CCI Standard Velocity cheap stuff better than any of the exotic stuff anyway.

Cool comparison either way.

At the end of the day, the FX still looks like a Super Soaker, is inherently fragile, and shoulders up like a coffee maker. But if performance is everything, I guess the cost and form factor dont matter much.

My Vudoo cost $2500 and my Anschutz 1710 cost $3000. Ah, the quest for accuracy. It still boils down to the indian, not the arrow.

 

[abqjoe]

I own high end powder burners as well as high end air rifles and it all boils down to the fact that they both have their place. I shoot my air rifles much more because I can shoot them in my yard without breaking any laws, and I can do so very quietly because of moderators. I love them both, will continue to own them both, because both make me very happy.

 

[rhoppert1]

Comes fown to tuning really, yes the cost is more for the pcp but it also depends on how much you shoot and what ammo. If you are running high end 22 and shoot a ton the pcp will make up the cost in the long run. As far as accuracy if you are a tinkerer and willing to put the time in tuning the accuracy I’d getting really close