FT etiquette question

[Franklink]

In my experience it is pretty typical to talk during the match about what the wind is doing, where the misses hit versus where the crosshairs where held, etc.

I'd suggest asking as many questions as you'd like, perhaps refraining as the person is in the act of taking a shot, as some might feel that breaks their concentration.

Having shot with you this past weekend, I found nothing wrong with your match etiquette. It's supposed to be enjoyable, and part of that is the conversation regarding the match, in my opinion.

 

[XSUltimate]

I was actually watching the thread string on the end of my barrel and telling Kevin where I thought he should aim. I think it may have helped him on a couple shot and maybe caused him to miss a couple based on my guesses. Maybe? I see no problem helping newbies!!
Thx
Dan

 

[scotton]

The correct and ethical way to discuss things like distance, wind hold, etc is AFTER everyone in the squad has shot the lane. With your inside voice so that the next shooters for that lane can't hear. That way you can learn without getting an advantage. It's fairly normal to have a quiet conversation after a tricky lane: "What did you range the second target at?" "Is there a gap in the trees causing the wind to change?" "You forgot to dial on the middle target", etc. You don't want to abuse this during a GP match because people are trying to focus on their own thing, but at a monthly match it's normal for shooters of all skill levels to have these quiet conversations. For brand new shooters, it's not uncommon to have them shoot a target after the scoring is done with the correct holdover or wind hold so they can see what they should do next time (assuming there aren't 4 people waiting to shoot the lane).

Another trick a lot of people do is mark on their score card where they missed and what they perceived the target distance to be. Then you can look for trends at the end of the match. If you missed all of the 45 yard targets low, your scope tape may be off or your dope may be incorrect. Jeff Cloud is really good about recording the wind direction and miss locations on his score cards.

 

[beerthief]

I really enjoyed this post . I have never shot an FT match ,after going to one practice match and three TN state finals @ the good ol' boys range i decided FT was not for me, so i guess that makes me an "armchair" FT person . I do have a dozen FT targets and put them out at home but Bench rest shoot them , still fun . Thanks for this thread.
Stan in
KY

 

[Motorhead]

In my years shooting FT up & down the west coast have witnessed events & there Match Directing style go from Easy going, fair amounts of unawareness and weak pre-prep .... To Very calculated management style with chores of helpers well assigned & executed

The Shooters however create the vibe of family & friends, having that unique trend among the FT shooters of all being friendly to & with one another.

 

[Airgunoregon]

Exactly right Scott,

The "Friendly Vibe" is what I like most about our FT game. The way we help the new comers learn at our local club matches is fantastic. Most of us old guys who have the experience are really proud when the newbie we trained, whoops our butt.

The hard part is to draw a line when the AAFTA Grand Prix match starts. The friendly comradery needs to stay, but the newbie lessons have to take a pause... until after the lane, or better still after the match.

There are competitors attending that will be in the running for the national scoring and it's not fair to the other competitors nationally, to help anyone contesting in that contest. Like said above, other squads might be also hearing. Learn to focus on the match at the GPs too. And the new comers need to learn those lessons too...

 

[Lgwoodworker]

The correct and ethical way to discuss things like distance, wind hold, etc is AFTER everyone in the squad has shot the lane. With your inside voice so that the next shooters for that lane can't hear. That way you can learn without getting an advantage. It's fairly normal to have a quiet conversation after a tricky lane: "What did you range the second target at?" "Is there a gap in the trees causing the wind to change?" "You forgot to dial on the middle target", etc. You don't want to abuse this during a GP match because people are trying to focus on their own thing, but at a monthly match it's normal for shooters of all skill levels to have these quiet conversations. For brand new shooters, it's not uncommon to have them shoot a target after the scoring is done with the correct holdover or wind hold so they can see what they should do next time (assuming there aren't 4 people waiting to shoot the lane).

Another trick a lot of people do is mark on their score card where they missed and what they perceived the target distance to be. Then you can look for trends at the end of the match. If you missed all of the 45 yard targets low, your scope tape may be off or your dope may be incorrect. Jeff Cloud is really good about recording the wind direction and miss locations on his score cards.

i met Jeff at a match in TX...he occupies a place in my mind not unlike an Olympian God. I will immediately emulate anything he does in the course of improving my shooting! While i write that tongue-in-cheek, he was one of the generous people i have met in my 5 minutes in this sport, letting me, a complete stranger, shoot his gun just to get a feel for pistol FT. Another person, Billy (last name unknown) let me shoot his gun for the Pistol FT part of the match. I was blown away by his generosity! And don't get me started on the cantankerous, crotchety, crank of a match director affectionately known as Og. He treated me and my wife like royalty. Thank you again, Ron @AirNGasman

In actual fact, i have yet to meet a person i don't like and/or admire. The biggest reason for me asking about etiquette are a couple of threads i have seen in the forum that lead me to believe that there are some that take the sport (and themselves, perhaps) a bit more seriously than I do. Don't get me wrong, i am highly competitive and want to win as much as the next guy, but I also recognize a "flavor" of competitiveness that I think we can all agree is not good for any sport. I don't want to engage in actions that will cause drama, or detract from the "vibe of family & friends, having that unique trend among the FT shooters"

Thanks again for all of your feedback. It has been very helpful

 

[scotton]

i met Jeff at a match in TX...he occupies a place in my mind not unlike an Olympian God. I will immediately emulate anything he does in the course of improving my shooting! While i write that tongue-in-cheek, he was one of the generous people i have met in my 5 minutes in this sport, letting me, a complete stranger, shoot his gun just to get a feel for pistol FT. Another person, Billy (last name unknown) let me shoot his gun for the Pistol FT part of the match. I was blown away by his generosity! And don't get me started on the cantankerous, crotchety, crank of a match director affectionately known as Og. He treated me and my wife like royalty. Thank you again, Ron @AirNGasman

In actual fact, i have yet to meet a person i don't like and/or admire. The biggest reason for me asking about etiquette are a couple of threads i have seen in the forum that lead me to believe that there are some that take the sport (and themselves, perhaps) a bit more seriously than I do. Don't get me wrong, i am highly competitive and want to win as much as the next guy, but I also recognize a "flavor" of competitiveness that I think we can all agree is not good for any sport. I don't want to engage in actions that will cause drama, or detract from the "vibe of family & friends, having that unique trend among the FT shooters"

Thanks again for all of your feedback. It has been very helpful

Yes, Jeff is like Chafo - the Greek god of irritation. Or maybe Figjam - the Greek god of FT hubris. Billy Davison is the Billy you shot with. He's a nice guy as long as you keep him away from the liquor cabinet (just kidding, Billy). Next time, shoot with Jim Byrd. He will have you laughing so hard you won't even know if you shot well or poorly. Ron treats everyone well because his memory is slipping so he can't remember who he owes money to.

 

[AirNGasman]

Great thread, Luis! Having spent as much time with you and the Missus as I could at y'all's first FT experience, no surprise your post is asking FT etiquette advice. Very thoughtful of you.

Everyone felt y'all were a great addition to the weekend. I can already tell you'll be a podium regular soon.

I used to give advice freely; especially to newbies. However I've seen some overdo advice, to the point the target of it took offense and left abruptly. So I now usually ask permission before giving advice. Think I recall asking you.

Anyway, consider this a personal invite to any of my matches. The June Grand Prix weekend will be a good 'un!

 

[PasadenaMike]

I’ll answer any questions they have during a match because it’s just what I do if I know the answer. Even if they know everything there is to know they stil have to know how to send it.

 

[dan_house]

Bunch of folks on this thread that have helped me considerably over the years. Every match I get to is a master class in gun setup, technique and a multitude of other things I cant think of. Its a fun sport, a great community, and Im a better shooter OVERALL from having participated in a large handful of matchs.

 

[thane]

Complaints in etiquette usually match the level of frustration a shooter is experiencing... everything going well=less likely to complain.

Keep your situational awareness meter engaged, have fun and be respectful especially on someones bad day.

For me, I like smack talk 100% of the time, the rougher the better. A skill I acquired being married to the same woman for 35 years... and don't ask for bonus shots unless it's a fun match and your score is in the dumper already.

 

[Garrettkq]

I'm not "that guy", but technically it's cheating or coaching. It could land one or both in the DQ column at a GP match. IF someone was to overhear you and push it, it could land both of you guys in hot water. The etiquette component comes in by not putting your squad mate in that position. Honestly, I'd recommend if you were having difficulty ranging, go with Unlimited class if your club offers it, and bring a rangefinder. There is a full spectrum of people that may Karen it and not be cool with it. But typically, in a local match, and if you're not in the winner's circle, people complain less. I have had people complain to me about others discussing this very thing. complaints range from "I was competing against X and he overheard Y tell Z how far it was." Then Butthurtness ensued. Even if you wait until after both shot the target, that could still be construed as coaching. The official answer is don't do it during the match; just wait til after the match.

 

[dayjd]

I'm curious to see what others think. But the first thought that came to me is distance.

In an AAFTA style match, distance is the taboo topic. For example, one guy shooting in Open or WFTF class, squadded with a Hunter class guy. The Hunter competitor is limited to 16x on the scope. If he's getting distances verbally from his squad mate, he's at an advantage over the other Hunter class shooters.

The hunter shooter under the rules must shoot first so any comment about distance to target would only be a WAG. However, if the Hunter shooters knocks it down with both shots the Open or WFTF shooter might be interested in what he shot it for. But, the rules may be bias against the Hunter shooter or someone thinks they are the likely ones to cheat so that's why we have to shoot first unless someone as a better explanation? After all a shooter with bucket and sticks and a 16x scope should not end up with a higher score than the seasoned Open shooter with a shooting jacket, 40 to 50 power scope sitting on the ground. Just my personal thoughts so please no one take it personal.

 

[scotton]

I'm not "that guy", but technically it's cheating or coaching. It could land one or both in the DQ column at a GP match. IF someone was to overhear you and push it, it could land both of you guys in hot water. The etiquette component comes in by not putting your squad mate in that position. Honestly, I'd recommend if you were having difficulty ranging, go with Unlimited class if your club offers it, and bring a rangefinder. There is a full spectrum of people that may Karen it and not be cool with it. But typically, in a local match, and if you're not in the winner's circle, people complain less. I have had people complain to me about others discussing this very thing. complaints range from "I was competing against X and he overheard Y tell Z how far it was." Then Butthurtness ensued. Even if you wait until after both shot the target, that could still be construed as coaching. The official answer is don't do it during the match; just wait til after the match.

Can you quote the rulebook where it says this is cheating? I just skimmed the rulebook and couldn't find any mention of coaching or discussing anything about the targets. It does mention good sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct, so maybe the Karens you are shooting with should be DQed for poor sportsmanship.

Honestly, if I had to put up with a bunch of complaining at a field target match, I would just stop. Field target should be fun, social and competitive. If those things get out of balance, I can find plenty of other things to do that don't involve whining.

I'm not coming at you, Garrett. I'm just tired of the squeaky old wheels getting all the grease in this sport.

 

[Frank in Fairfield]

I help everyone who needs help and who wants it.
We had one fellow shooting with us (He had his own club in Sacramento) who would absolutely go into a rage if anyone offered help or advice to anyone else.
Scott knows of whom I speak as he has had dealings with this fellow over the years.
I shoot field target to have something to do.
I am competition for no one.
Springer…
PCP…
Pistol…
Drop data…
No drop data…
My score will be at or near 50%

 

[Motorhead]

I help everyone who needs help and who wants it.
We had one fellow shooting with us (He had his own club in Sacramento) who would absolutely go into a rage if anyone offered help or advice to anyone else.
Scott knows of whom I speak as he has had dealings with this fellow over the years.
I shoot field target to have something to do.
I am competition for no one.
Springer…
PCP…
Pistol…
Drop data…
No drop data…
My score will be at or near 50%

We won't go there .. It prides me that our SVFTC group all share and in turn have nurtured some mighty fine national caliber shooters !!

 

[Frank in Fairfield]

A noted world champion..

 

[Garrettkq]

Can you quote the rulebook where it says this is cheating? I just skimmed the rulebook and couldn't find any mention of coaching or discussing anything about the targets. It does mention good sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct, so maybe the Karens you are shooting with should be DQed for poor sportsmanship.

Honestly, if I had to put up with a bunch of complaining at a field target match, I would just stop. Field target should be fun, social and competitive. If those things get out of balance, I can find plenty of other things to do that don't involve whining.

I'm not coming at you, Garrett. I'm just tired of the squeaky old wheels getting all the grease in this sport

DQed for poor sportsmanship... LOL Ya there is no shortage of complainers in the sport Hahaha.

Yeah sure thing...you saw the two places. "Common Rules. Penalties section: The penalty for deliberate infraction of the shooting rules, unsafe practice, unsportsmanlike conduct, or any form of cheating is disqualification." and in the Etiquette section, second paragraph:
"The penalty for deliberate infraction of the Shoot Rules, unsafe practice, ungentlemanly conduct or any form of cheating is disqualification."

Not in AAFTA, but in WFTF ... Section 3.1.4 "All shooters, irrespective of their age, should not be assisted with the shooting process or
coached during the competition session they participate in"

Well, ya know there are those people out there. Just don't do it, and the point won't come up. But remember, the question was about etiquette. Isn't there a saying "everything is allowed unless you win"

 

[scotton]

DQed for poor sportsmanship... LOL Ya there is no shortage of complainers in the sport Hahaha.

Yeah sure thing...you saw the two places. "Common Rules. Penalties section: The penalty for deliberate infraction of the shooting rules, unsafe practice, unsportsmanlike conduct, or any form of cheating is disqualification." and in the Etiquette section, second paragraph:
"The penalty for deliberate infraction of the Shoot Rules, unsafe practice, ungentlemanly conduct or any form of cheating is disqualification."

Not in AAFTA, but in WFTF ... Section 3.1.4 "All shooters, irrespective of their age, should not be assisted with the shooting process or
coached during the competition session they participate in"

Well, ya know there are those people out there. Just don't do it, and the point won't come up. But remember, the question was about etiquette. Isn't there a saying "everything is allowed unless you win"

Thanks, I figured it was probably a WFTF rule. Now that I've moved to Open class, I can say this - nobody wants to talk to WFTF shooters anyway, they're all weirdos . Except maybe to do a wellness check to make sure they aren't about to fall out from wearing a leather shooting coat in July.
So I guess since WFTF shooters have to follow the WFTF rulebook, we are in the odd position of a Hunter class shooter being allowed to discuss a target with a WFTF shooter, but that could cause a rule infraction for the WFTF shooter if he listens to the Hunter shooter.

I'll continue to show good etiquette and sportsmanship by discussing targets with (eligible) squad mates after the lane is done (quietly). And I'll continue to coach new shooters until they start to beat me, at which point I will give them terrible advice about pellets, scopes, guns and shooting techniques. Sadly, my good advice and bad advice are mostly indistinguishable.