For me…..Who else doesn’t count fly offs?

Okay, while I am reading the threads and some recent videos on YouTube I see people counting fly offs as a kill without recovering the body.

Yes, I know some times you can’t for a variety of reasons. My last trip to Idaho I shot a dove and it flew away then “crash” into a tree. I walked 400 yards across a field to try to recover it, but couldn’t find the body where it should have been, so I didn’t count it as a kill. Plus I feel guilty because it wasn’t a clean kill.

I am not trying to pass judgement at all. It is just IMHO of what I count as “counting coo.” 
 
Sorta related, but have you guys noticed that the big YouTubers (I watch Ted and Matt primarily) really cared about making super precise shots back when they were hunting with pellets and now they don't really seem to care as much?

I understand that a 75+ fpe slug is gonna whallop a pest bird as long as it touches center mass. However, I feel like I'm seeing a ton more birds get up and fly 10-20 yards instead of dropping straight. Maybe it's because they don't really care if they hit off target by an inch or a little more?

Not ragging on them, they are far better shots than I'll probably ever be. Just observing that I feel like I'm seeing kills not as clean and efficient as I did when they were shooting at a fraction of the FPE.
 
Depends, if I see it "crash" ie roll over and fall uncontrolled it's a kill. Also we have a pair of resident Hawks, I hit a squirrel in the side of the head out of my window. He did the tail wagging kick. I watched till he was still. I stopped at the bathroom on the way to the yard. When I got to where he fell on some bare dirt, blood and talon marks. I count that one too. 

Jim
 
At between 100 and 250 bodies a day I do not pick them up in the barn yard where there are cows or with ground squirrels in the alfalfa. In the feeding area I always pplice the area. That seems to be the norm on the farms I pest on.

Forgot As to fly offs or crawl aways if you shoot the numbers I do it will happen. Come on this is vermine we are dealing with. A pigeon eats 1/2# of grain a day and a ground sqirrel eats 54# of alfalfa a year. I killed 5000 birds and 5000 ground squirrels last year, now calculate how much xtra $$$ that puts in the farmers account.
 
Sorta related, but have you guys noticed that the big YouTubers (I watch Ted and Matt primarily) really cared about making super precise shots back when they were hunting with pellets and now they don't really seem to care as much?

I understand that a 75+ fpe slug is gonna whallop a pest bird as long as it touches center mass. However, I feel like I'm seeing a ton more birds get up and fly 10-20 yards instead of dropping straight. Maybe it's because they don't really care if they hit off target by an inch or a little more?

Not ragging on them, they are far better shots than I'll probably ever be. Just observing that I feel like I'm seeing kills not as clean and efficient as I did when they were shooting at a fraction of the FPE.

you are right
 
Sorta related, but have you guys noticed that the big YouTubers (I watch Ted and Matt primarily) really cared about making super precise shots back when they were hunting with pellets and now they don't really seem to care as much?

I understand that a 75+ fpe slug is gonna whallop a pest bird as long as it touches center mass. However, I feel like I'm seeing a ton more birds get up and fly 10-20 yards instead of dropping straight. Maybe it's because they don't really care if they hit off target by an inch or a little more?

Not ragging on them, they are far better shots than I'll probably ever be. Just observing that I feel like I'm seeing kills not as clean and efficient as I did when they were shooting at a fraction of the FPE.

you are right

Good to know that at least one other person agrees with me. Every time they shoot a bird an inch low and say "anchored that one" while it flies 20 yards before crashing... I'm just like, "No, you didn't. Go watch your own video from when you were shooting @ 30 foot pounds..."

And I totally understand that they were shooting like 100 yards max then and now 150 yards with their fancy FX slug guns is the new norm. But still...


 
That's why I'm glad I got a Tactacam! It's amazing what hardy little animals California Ground Squirrels are. Been many times I thought I'd missed a shot but in reviewing footage it confirmed that my "misses" were solid heart/lung shots. Even after a .30 cal solid hit they can still make back down the hole! Now I'm getting to count kills that I wouldn't have before. 
 
Think a simple clarification of terminology would fix everything. 


Kill=dead body, fly off, run off.....they be dead

Body count=dead bodies collected



So just don’t count kills and count bodies instead. No more confusion, and who is really counting anyways? It’s not like IRS is going after you for proof/receipt of a kill so they can audit you on it. 


IRS: “sir, you only have receipts for 15 kills but you claimed 25”

you: “the grim reaper only gave me receipt for 15 because I only turn in 15 bodies but I swear I got 25”

IRS: “sorry sir, no receipt no kill. You know the rules! Your penalty will be.......1 million dollars!!!”
 
When reading discussions on fly-offs and birds' anatomy, well... — it seems like we all kill a lot more quarry than we can recover bodies.


Here's a quote from one of those discussions (by Bob Sterne, GTA):

"I do a lot of Grouse hunting, mostly head shots, and occasionally have a fly-away, despite a solid hit, red mist, and if the bird is recovered often half the skull missing....

My son, who is a Nurse and has studied a lot of anatomy gave me THE ANSWER....
Birds have their central nervous system spread out along the upper part of the spinal cord, the brain-stem if you prefer.... It is that part of their nervous system that controls the flight muscles....

Even with a solid hit to the brain, providing an instant kill, the message that the bird is dead just doesn't reach the flight control system....

The same thing can happen with a hit to the heart and/or lungs.... The "flight response" takes over on impact, the bird launches, and can fly for some distance, often under what looks like control, before running out of blood and folding....


It doesn't always happen, of course, and is more common with a chest hit than an impact to the fusebox…. but it happens often enough to be really frustrating when you're hunting for food...
Bob" 







🔶 Different shooters, different ways of counting.... 😄 Here are some examples I've seen:

Some classify their hits like this:

DRT = dead right there 

F&D = fly and die (feathered quarry)

R&D = run and die (furred quarry)

H&D = hide and die (hide in burrows and holes)

HBS = hit but survive :-( 

Miss





Others define the kill probabilities:

Confirmed kill = 100% (death visually confirmed)

Probable kill = 70% (for example: "audible thud, and at least 10 feathers flying", or "red mist", "dropped straight down and out of sight", etc.)

Possible kill = 40% (for example: "at least 5 feathers flying, but no audible thud", or "5 feathers, but flies away without visible impairment", etc.)

Miss







🔶 It seems if we limited ourselves to only counting DRT hits we are more strict than most powder burner hunters....

I explain:

🔸The phenomenon that quarry after getting hit hurries off for long ways before dropping dead seems to be very common with powder burners.... For example, deer, after getting a perfect hearth/lung shot, can run off for hundreds of yards(!), before dropping dead....

Why would killing be any different with airguns?



🔸However, an important difference between powder burners and airguns is not in the killing, but in the recovery: 

Airgun quarry is very small — so finding it after a non-DRT hit is much more difficult than finding a deer, with blood trail and all. Airgun quarry can hide and die in burrows and holes, typical powder burner quarry can't....





So, it seems that only counting DRT's as kills is more strict than how power burner hunters count their kills....



Just my 2c. 😊

Matthias




 
There is something rewarding (not to be confused with morbid) about retrieving your kill. I mostly hunt mice , rats and the occasional starling in my yard. Two weeks ago I shot a rat off the fence. It was around 2am. I was not going to go out there and retrieve it at that time. The next morning I went out there. No rat to be found. But. 
Here is a picture of my Zeroing Target that was about 18” below the rat when shot. 
.
31F27085-BE46-4000-8B65-CBDA99F66C6D.1626466887.jpeg


I feel confident that was a kill shot. Most likely a cat or possum came by and took the rat. I’ve also shot mice at a distance of 4 yards with .22 cal pellet only to watch them run off. Then the next day I go and look and there they are with a hole clean though and about two to three feet from where I shot them.