I was wondering, does anyone have any sage advice for diagnosing fliers? I'm running the Matador R5M at short ranges and have been getting more more fliers than usual recently. I serviced all of the o-rings in the reg not too long ago and I have the barrel tension nut set to I think 13 ft lbs (any lower and I got a lot of fliers). I'm wondering if it's just the pellets (JSB King 25.39's at around 860 fps). Maybe the barrel needs cleaning? It happens once every few mags but it's like one shot has a noticeable POI shift of like and inch or more and then it goes back to lights out. It's the weirdest thing.
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Fliers
- Thread starter damageINC
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I would run a few patches through the barrel , but one Flyer in 30 or 40 shots is not outrageous.
maybe keep a closer eye on loading pellets?
maybe keep a closer eye on loading pellets?
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This is funny.
"DamageINC", this is not necessarily aimed at you, but...
Everytime I see someone writing about "fliers", is makes me laugh a little. It's ALWAYS, well, 99.5% of the time...the gun, the wind (even though the next 20 shots are nice !), a bad pellet (that's one of my favorites), my dog bit me, my wife hit me... It's never the shooters fault !
WTF ?
ALL it takes is for the shooters heartbeat to happen at the wrong time to give a...flier. EVERYONE, has little muscle glitches every now and again, some not even noticeable to send a pellet/slug flying...BUT...it's never the shooter !
For you "bad pellet" guys...really, you load your magazine, or especially the single shot guys, you do this blind, or watching your naked next door neighbor ? Even a slight glance at each pellet will show up a bent skirt, or otherwise dented, or just a bad pellet/slug.
So...the..."bad pellet" excuse is not real.
Ok, maybe the gun has a little problem with a "leaking, or over pressured regulator", maybe 5%, a sudden "bad breach o-ring", that fixes itself on the next shot... I call maybe 1% for all US shooters.
The rest...is the guy or girl controlling the gun. STUFF happens, admit to it. You aren't B.S.ing anyone...
Haters...blast away
Mike
"DamageINC", this is not necessarily aimed at you, but...
Everytime I see someone writing about "fliers", is makes me laugh a little. It's ALWAYS, well, 99.5% of the time...the gun, the wind (even though the next 20 shots are nice !), a bad pellet (that's one of my favorites), my dog bit me, my wife hit me... It's never the shooters fault !
WTF ?
ALL it takes is for the shooters heartbeat to happen at the wrong time to give a...flier. EVERYONE, has little muscle glitches every now and again, some not even noticeable to send a pellet/slug flying...BUT...it's never the shooter !
For you "bad pellet" guys...really, you load your magazine, or especially the single shot guys, you do this blind, or watching your naked next door neighbor ? Even a slight glance at each pellet will show up a bent skirt, or otherwise dented, or just a bad pellet/slug.
So...the..."bad pellet" excuse is not real.
Ok, maybe the gun has a little problem with a "leaking, or over pressured regulator", maybe 5%, a sudden "bad breach o-ring", that fixes itself on the next shot... I call maybe 1% for all US shooters.
The rest...is the guy or girl controlling the gun. STUFF happens, admit to it. You aren't B.S.ing anyone...
Haters...blast away
Mike
That got dark real quick. I characterized them as fliers because I wasn't seeing this sort of thing when I initially got the gun. Currently it happens fairly consistently every couple mags. I don't fancy myself a deadshot by any stretch, but I also haven't gotten worse since I first purchased the gun. When I first got it, I had to learn proper sighting in and seeing how stuff operates. But I didn't see weird shots that just flew off by a couple inches in a random direction. It felt like I was doing something wrong when a shot went off (scope not adjusted correctly, pulling it with trigger control issues). This doesn't feel like that at all.....just trying to troubleshoot.
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@MikeVV, I agree in general with what you are saying. When I get “flyers” I always assume it has to do with me. But some really good shooters might be able to tell if they’re getting flyers? Particularly bench rest shooters? So maybe the term is just misapplied. Flyers “do occur” how to trouble shoot (pun) the issue is the question.
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Sage advice...I'm chasin' fliers in a high end gun right now...what I'm lookin' at in no particular order...
Clean barrel is a good place to start.
Trigger...too heavy and or creeps.
Barrel loading up needs polishing.
Gun not broken in, marksman not familiar with it yet.
Mag issue.
Wind.
WIND!!!
Marksman.
Unsteady bench rest.
Sight picture different shot to shot...
Pellets the last thing I worry about.
My money is on the trigger or bore issue I just started my chase after first shoot..
Check out the surface finish of the charging hole bores in this Styer Pro X mag...if a revolver cylinder bore was that rough cases would be locked in after firing...I have a feeling lead pellets don't like it either...they fit tight can't be good for consistency...but hey what can you expect from a 3k gun...lol.
Clean barrel is a good place to start.
Trigger...too heavy and or creeps.
Barrel loading up needs polishing.
Gun not broken in, marksman not familiar with it yet.
Mag issue.
Wind.
WIND!!!
Marksman.
Unsteady bench rest.
Sight picture different shot to shot...
Pellets the last thing I worry about.
My money is on the trigger or bore issue I just started my chase after first shoot..
Check out the surface finish of the charging hole bores in this Styer Pro X mag...if a revolver cylinder bore was that rough cases would be locked in after firing...I have a feeling lead pellets don't like it either...they fit tight can't be good for consistency...but hey what can you expect from a 3k gun...lol.
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HI I have owned all edguns and I have probably saw every issue they have as I got many firends with them as well , of first
you tune is fine for this ammo
The R5m is a surperdly accurate platform and deadly accurate out of box and with some fine tuning polishing ect can be a great long range slug gun , it requires little cleaning and is one of the most durable pcp guns u can buy
I would get all your mags , remove orings and get your pellets and they need to fall threw under their own weight , if not slightly hone with rolled sand paper , I have saw a few mags too tight and distorting the pellet and causing a random flier .
I see you even toqured your barrel tension er , ok one thing I would do since you messed with removing barrel tensioner is put a level on your rail ,level it on gun vice or tripod next you see 2 holes where your tensioner nut is put 2 steel rods or drill bits in them and then put a bubble level their and level that and then tighten ,
I never torqued one however as ED and Brian told me years ago , when I would ask how tight do I tighten nut , as I at time was making custom slug barrels or polishing my barrels in my lathe and re-crowning , Their answers were it needs to be tight , so I tightened all like spark plug tight ,
Let me know when you do this
if you still have issue message me
LOU
you tune is fine for this ammo
The R5m is a surperdly accurate platform and deadly accurate out of box and with some fine tuning polishing ect can be a great long range slug gun , it requires little cleaning and is one of the most durable pcp guns u can buy
I would get all your mags , remove orings and get your pellets and they need to fall threw under their own weight , if not slightly hone with rolled sand paper , I have saw a few mags too tight and distorting the pellet and causing a random flier .
I see you even toqured your barrel tension er , ok one thing I would do since you messed with removing barrel tensioner is put a level on your rail ,level it on gun vice or tripod next you see 2 holes where your tensioner nut is put 2 steel rods or drill bits in them and then put a bubble level their and level that and then tighten ,
I never torqued one however as ED and Brian told me years ago , when I would ask how tight do I tighten nut , as I at time was making custom slug barrels or polishing my barrels in my lathe and re-crowning , Their answers were it needs to be tight , so I tightened all like spark plug tight ,
Let me know when you do this
if you still have issue message me
LOU
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Almost 100% of the time…if the gun is moved during the shot cycle the shooter will know before impact. At least experienced shooters will know. Yeah I understand ppl blaming any flier pulling the gun. But it’s not always the case.
That being said..I’ve owned some pretty high end guns that shot 1” with the mag and .25” groups without the mag.
So there can be issues. Just start removing factors that could be an issue. See if things clear up.
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Another source of ostensibly random fliers is lead buildup getting stripped off by the pellet and sending it awry. See Mike’s comments (thomasair)
www.airgunnation.com
22 RD Monster comparison…..
I still don’t get it. How does a barrel throw the flyer than return to pellet on pellet, consistently, for another 75 or so - then do it again. It’s the pellet.
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Hello @damageINC,
Glad to hear you got your R5M back together and shooting after our recent discussion. I use the same pellet around 890 feet per second in my R5M. I have a few thoughts that might help your accuracy. I don't usually punch paper for groups with mine, I sight it in using steel spinners and repaint them when necessary in order to read my hits and check my zero. I cannot say with any personal data how well mine is doing with flyers but I have some general tips.
I agree with @jwrabbit123 about checking your magazines carefully and look for any burrs or tight chambers that might be damaging your pellets.
When I cycle my action, I always do it slowly and deliberately, especially charging slowly in the forward direction where the pellet is pushed through the magazine and seated in the lead-in area. I try to make the most consistent and repeatable charging action each time without rushing it.
I also lube my pellets with a combination of krytek finish Line wax and a little bit of ballistol. I do this by dripping the lube into a round corelle cereal bowl, pouring in a tin of pellets, and gently shuffling them around the way a chef sautes vegetables, flipping them back on themselves against the rim. I rotate the bowl 90° every few flips until all the lube looks well distributed. This usually dislodges any flakes or debris that might be on the pellets and then I wipe the bowl and any excess lube out afterwards with a paper towel. Sometimes there are a few flakes. Yes you could say I saute my pellets haha. Some of this lube transfers to the o-rings on the magazine o-rings and helps the pellets slip through easily without damaging skirts.
Another thing I do is when I load my magazines, I tap them gently, forward face down, on a wood surface to seat the nose of each pellet flush with the front of the magazine, so each pellet has the exact same chambering travel distance when charging.
You might want to remove your breech block (see excellent video from Edgun West It's easy to do) and inspect the entire breech area for any burrs or debris. You can clean or swab away any deposits or lube from the breech O-ring and transfer port area. You might need a magnifying eye loupe and a flashlight to inspect the transfer port for any burrs and use a dental scraper if necessary to smooth out any rough edges you see.
I also extensively polished my barrel, first with JB bore compound and then simichrome polishing paste.
If you take the stock off you will notice there is an access hole for lubricating the hammer/trigger sear areas. The surfaces are exposed when the hammer is uncocked. I cleaned these and applied some molybdenum disulfide grease to the mating sear surfaces without changing the trigger pull weight adjustment and my trigger action is much nicer and more consistent.
And finally as far as technique goes, I find that maintaining some shoulder pressure, keeping the butt pressed into my shoulder, provides more consistent results. I most often shoot (pesting) with a bipod in a standing position from door frame or against trees and anchor one of the feet against an object and lean into the butt a little bit with my body. I frequently grab the other leg with my off hand as a grip and pull the rifle into my shoulder a bit with a gentle cheek weld.
Since you've recently done some repairs on your valve, it may take a while to blow out any little blobs of silicone lube that might have worked their way up from the transfer port. It may help to pull a patch or two through every few magazines.
Good luck and have fun shooting!
Feinwerk
Glad to hear you got your R5M back together and shooting after our recent discussion. I use the same pellet around 890 feet per second in my R5M. I have a few thoughts that might help your accuracy. I don't usually punch paper for groups with mine, I sight it in using steel spinners and repaint them when necessary in order to read my hits and check my zero. I cannot say with any personal data how well mine is doing with flyers but I have some general tips.
I agree with @jwrabbit123 about checking your magazines carefully and look for any burrs or tight chambers that might be damaging your pellets.
When I cycle my action, I always do it slowly and deliberately, especially charging slowly in the forward direction where the pellet is pushed through the magazine and seated in the lead-in area. I try to make the most consistent and repeatable charging action each time without rushing it.
I also lube my pellets with a combination of krytek finish Line wax and a little bit of ballistol. I do this by dripping the lube into a round corelle cereal bowl, pouring in a tin of pellets, and gently shuffling them around the way a chef sautes vegetables, flipping them back on themselves against the rim. I rotate the bowl 90° every few flips until all the lube looks well distributed. This usually dislodges any flakes or debris that might be on the pellets and then I wipe the bowl and any excess lube out afterwards with a paper towel. Sometimes there are a few flakes. Yes you could say I saute my pellets haha. Some of this lube transfers to the o-rings on the magazine o-rings and helps the pellets slip through easily without damaging skirts.
Another thing I do is when I load my magazines, I tap them gently, forward face down, on a wood surface to seat the nose of each pellet flush with the front of the magazine, so each pellet has the exact same chambering travel distance when charging.
You might want to remove your breech block (see excellent video from Edgun West It's easy to do) and inspect the entire breech area for any burrs or debris. You can clean or swab away any deposits or lube from the breech O-ring and transfer port area. You might need a magnifying eye loupe and a flashlight to inspect the transfer port for any burrs and use a dental scraper if necessary to smooth out any rough edges you see.
I also extensively polished my barrel, first with JB bore compound and then simichrome polishing paste.
If you take the stock off you will notice there is an access hole for lubricating the hammer/trigger sear areas. The surfaces are exposed when the hammer is uncocked. I cleaned these and applied some molybdenum disulfide grease to the mating sear surfaces without changing the trigger pull weight adjustment and my trigger action is much nicer and more consistent.
And finally as far as technique goes, I find that maintaining some shoulder pressure, keeping the butt pressed into my shoulder, provides more consistent results. I most often shoot (pesting) with a bipod in a standing position from door frame or against trees and anchor one of the feet against an object and lean into the butt a little bit with my body. I frequently grab the other leg with my off hand as a grip and pull the rifle into my shoulder a bit with a gentle cheek weld.
Since you've recently done some repairs on your valve, it may take a while to blow out any little blobs of silicone lube that might have worked their way up from the transfer port. It may help to pull a patch or two through every few magazines.
Good luck and have fun shooting!
Feinwerk
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Maybe a flyer is caused by a lead fragment left by the last pellet shot but cleared by the next shot IE: flyer ? just a thought .
EDIT
A 95% barrel builds up lead slowly. As the build up takes place your poi will usually move very slightly each successive shot. ….then the build up releases when it becomes too great and you get your flier. If you are patient enough.. this can be seen with a bore scope down the barrel every shot till you reach a flyer. You have to locate the problem area first. Most barrels have multiple problem locations. Most barrels are less than they could be because of machining.
I don’t get any more flyers at 100 than I do at 50.
Mike
EDIT
A 95% barrel builds up lead slowly. As the build up takes place your poi will usually move very slightly each successive shot. ….then the build up releases when it becomes too great and you get your flier. If you are patient enough.. this can be seen with a bore scope down the barrel every shot till you reach a flyer. You have to locate the problem area first. Most barrels have multiple problem locations. Most barrels are less than they could be because of machining.
I don’t get any more flyers at 100 than I do at 50.
Mike
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You mentioned you just serviced the reg. I had a Taipan that would throw fliers and it turned out to be a barely leaking reg. Might be worth checking.
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Fliers? Never had one in my life, you are obviously doing something wrong. But, I have some ocean front property in West Virginia I can sell you!
Now that I've got the lies out of the way..... There are many potential causes of fliers, rifle, pellet, shooter, conditions, etc. I can only add one thing. In cases as you describe, where no change in shooter or pellet can be observed, I have most often found a dirty barrel to be the culprit, and I would start there. Internally, it could be an issue with the valve, reg, or again, dirt. Twice, my RAW started throwing fliers, and I mean serious fliers, 3 inches at 25 yards. Once it was a dirty barrel, and once it was a dirty hammer assembly. I cleaned and very lightly lubed it, and the problem has not recurred in several years. The hammer assembly designs vary, so be cautious with cleaning and lubing without specific and knowledgeable advice (not mine). Some rifles have such a complicated barrel assembly, with various things attached at different torque levels, diagnosis can be a challenge. Good luck.
Now that I've got the lies out of the way..... There are many potential causes of fliers, rifle, pellet, shooter, conditions, etc. I can only add one thing. In cases as you describe, where no change in shooter or pellet can be observed, I have most often found a dirty barrel to be the culprit, and I would start there. Internally, it could be an issue with the valve, reg, or again, dirt. Twice, my RAW started throwing fliers, and I mean serious fliers, 3 inches at 25 yards. Once it was a dirty barrel, and once it was a dirty hammer assembly. I cleaned and very lightly lubed it, and the problem has not recurred in several years. The hammer assembly designs vary, so be cautious with cleaning and lubing without specific and knowledgeable advice (not mine). Some rifles have such a complicated barrel assembly, with various things attached at different torque levels, diagnosis can be a challenge. Good luck.
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I've read every post and I'm pretty sure I haven't seen this one....Parallax. If you aren't dead perfect on your parallax and put your head/eye in EXACTLY the same position, your groups will suck. That said, I'd love to have a definitive answer but, way too many variables.
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I think you have a point with what you’re saying, especially the heartbeat issue. There’s a big difference from person to person how hard ones heart beats and how much it effects accuracy. I’ve noticed that my crosshairs jump every time my heart beats. It’s going to effect accuracy if the trigger breaks at the wrong time and there’s nothing I can do about it.
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So a little update on this. I had continued to get fliers and at 24 yards I was seeing them straightline in a completely different direction to where I was aiming. More frustratingly it wasn't consistently off.
Yesterday I finally got around to just removing the barrel and cleaning it. Man that made a huge difference. Results are early but the first 9 shot string with no changes to my technique or mags and it's back to being a laser beam. Clean your barrels. My guess is mine needs it every two tins ~ 600 pellets. I think I was over 1000 at the time.
Yesterday I finally got around to just removing the barrel and cleaning it. Man that made a huge difference. Results are early but the first 9 shot string with no changes to my technique or mags and it's back to being a laser beam. Clean your barrels. My guess is mine needs it every two tins ~ 600 pellets. I think I was over 1000 at the time.
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I know others preach not bothering to clean barrel, but I always clean mine after each trip to range. It will make a difference on certain guns, guaranteed. Like the RAWs, the Weihrauch, etc.
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