Finally a 1/2 group with R 🐺, plus 30 cal comparison Wolverine

[Flintsack]

So I finally broke the half inch barrier last night. However I’m still getting way too many flyers. Possibly caused by wind?

I decided to take my old wolverine out, one of the very first originals with the tube instead of the bottle.

I think I may prefer 30 caliber. The jury is a long way from out.

I realize the recoil is much more, however it also seems to do better in the wind which is I believe a bigger issue. We will see.

mike

 

[Yo]

Likely cause may also be 22 caliber pellet QC and or damage.

I have yet to experience QC issues with the 30 caliber 44gr JSB and their relabeled spinoffs. Knock on wood...

 

[Arzrover]

An interesting experiment with a friend ... we fired simultaneously at a single aim point each... 25 shots. When I would get a "flier", so did he. When you're shooting 100 yds w a pellet, it takes SOO little to move it around that we end up with extremes we call fliers. I've chron'd extensively with a LabRadar looking for clues. SOMETIMES I see the 50 or 75 yard velocity a little lower and it ends up slightly low on the target, but mostly they are just way off and no velocity correlation. I was lucky enough to spend a couple days with a top benchrester recently and he showed my wife and I a couple of clues to vertical as he had learned to decode. Even with that, only so much success can be had. I'm far from his level and equipment but trying to learn. 100 yds is DIFFICULT to consistently predict with the typical sensitivity of pellets. Yes, we can get good groups or scores sometimes, but right now, not happening for anyone that I've seen. 

I've only shot a 30 EVOL and RW w ART barrel and while they were very accurate , I find my 22 w MRDs easier to shoot accurately. 

You're certainly doing well with yours.

Bob

 

[Centercut]

Arzrover is correct, and I experience the same with my Bleu Wolf and RD Monsters. That 2 or 3 unexplainable low shots at 100 yards (7 ring) seem to happen almost every card. It isn’t due to speed changes, since my 60 shot ES is approx 12 or 13 FPS. Plus the shot to shot ES is almost always less than 5 FPS. I have some ideas that I’m testing out that have to do with barrel harmonics based on varying pulse widths in microseconds that control how hard the hammer hits the valve. In a mechanical regulated gun it hits the exact same every time, but in the RW it varies based on programming and bottle pressure. More to follow if I’m successful...

 

[stoti]

I’d really like to hear more on this topic as it relates to both mechanical and electronic guns. Unexplained fliers with both pellets and slugs is one of those things that I sit around thinking about. So many teeny tiny groups have been ruined with the random flier. Although totally still days are pretty infrequent here, when we do get them and everything is going great, nothing gets me thinking more than the random flier. Hold, consistency, trigger press, follow through, breathing, parallax, deformed pellet, wind, all run through my mind. When you shoot a lot and are getting tight groups, you can normally tell if it was you or an anomaly. The anomaly that causes fliers just drive me nuts, so I’d like to hear more insight.

Stoti

 

[tommyb]

I’d really like to hear more on this topic as it relates to both mechanical and electronic guns. Unexplained fliers with both pellets and slugs is one of those things that I sit around thinking about. So many teeny tiny groups have been ruined with the random flier. Although totally still days are pretty infrequent here, when we do get them and everything is going great, nothing gets me thinking more than the random flier. Hold, consistency, trigger press, follow through, breathing, parallax, deformed pellet, wind, all run through my mind. When you shoot a lot and are getting tight groups, you can normally tell if it was you or an anomaly. The anomaly that causes fliers just drive me nuts, so I’d like to hear more insight.

Stoti

Flint (Mike) - way to keep at it. Enjoying your recent posts!

Stoti - Subscribed... “Ah, the random flyer; a conundrum for the ages!“

I normally get to my outdoor local 50 and 100 yard range two times per week, for about three hours per session. I pretty much shoot at 100 yards for the entire time with the RAW HM1000x ( was a .30 and now a HP Poly .22 ) and my RW .25 cal Safari ( currently at AoA being swapped out with a new approved ART .22 HP ). One mechanical gun and one electronic. I am pretty much exclusively shooting the Monster .22 25g RDs.

My rough estimate/ guess is that I probably have shot approximately 50-75 EBR Target cards and maybe 50 NUAH cards In total this year for the regular virtual casual competitions. I love this type of a virtual friendly contest, given for where I’m at now with BR 100 yard shooting. 

I can honestly say that I do regularly have about four or five flyers per card, for ALL of the above mentioned cards. You read correctly, he did say “all” of the cards. Like everyone, I feel like I’m chasing a ghost here trying to minimize these flyers. Mine are a healthy combination of both misses and 7 and 8’s. My goals this year are trying to consistently shoot 220-225 range with both guns. 

I can’t do it yet, but I would love to find a way to minimize these flyers. I’m not naive and have learned from other BR regulars that there are many variables that can cause these flyers, but I’m very interested in continuing to identify ‘work arounds’ that might minimize the frequency which “ruins” so many cards. 

Very interesting topic.

 

[Chuck-in-Ohio]

The only addition I can make is that I have convinced myself that the errant outlying shot is either a freak microburst of wind, or ME.

I have seen the unexplained dive at 100 with .22 RDMs and with .25 Heavy MKlls shot from a FX Royale, an Impact, an Edgun Morana, and a RAW HM 1000X.

The last incident was from my Impact running a 5 shot string of .22 RDMs that chronied from 948 to 953. Shot 4 at 951 took a dive like Sonny Liston for no reason that I could discern. I felt that I was in the groove, the release felt good, sight picture was optimal as I watched the pellet fly in the scope........

Breeze stayed steady according to the flags, pellets were weighed and visually inspected, velocity was spot on etc. etc. etc...........

 

[tommyb]

The last incident was from my Impact running a 5 shot string of .22 RDMs that chronied from 948 to 953. Shot 4 at 951 took a dive like Sonny Liston for no reason that I could discern. I felt that I was in the groove, the release felt good, sight picture was optimal as I watched the pellet fly in the scope........

Chuck, exactly! I accept that some of these that dive and are fliers are “me,” but statistically it cannot be possible ( in my mind anyway), that there are that many ruined cards just from me messing up. About 95% of total NUAH and EBR Target cards have fliers and my average is in the 210 range for that total.

Many really experienced BR shooters on this forum and GTA have pretty much stated that this is likely to happen at 100 yards with an air rifle shooting pellets. However, how is it also true that there are a significant volume of 225-235 cards that do not have fliers?

Definitely higher skill and experience account for these good scores, but isn’t it strange that there are so many excellent scoring cards that really don’t have fliers? The randomness of the flier given everything else is being done correctly is weird.

Like I said, very puzzling.

 

[steve123]

The last incident was from my Impact running a 5 shot string of .22 RDMs that chronied from 948 to 953. Shot 4 at 951 took a dive like Sonny Liston for no reason that I could discern. I felt that I was in the groove, the release felt good, sight picture was optimal as I watched the pellet fly in the scope........

Chuck, exactly! I accept that some of these that dive and are fliers are “me,” but statistically it cannot be possible ( in my mind anyway), that there are that many ruined cards just from me messing up. About 95% of total NUAH and EBR Target cards have fliers and my average is in the 210 range for that total.

Many really experienced BR shooters on this forum and GTA have pretty much stated that this is likely to happen at 100 yards with an air rifle shooting pellets. However, how is it also true that there are a significant volume of 225-235 cards that do not have fliers?

Definitely higher skill and experience account for these good scores, but isn’t it strange that there are so many excellent scoring cards that really don’t have fliers? The randomness of the flier given everything else is being done correctly is weird.

Like I said, very puzzling.

One reason would be that there were no odd wind artifacts during that shooting session so the pellets went to the target without vertical deflection. 

Could be a really messed up pellet that was undetected???

Poor follow through or some error on the shooters part.

I shot a Tommy in his rest that had 0 movement, that was astoundingly accurate at 50Y but at 100Y there were those flyers here and there. Mike said there were flyers at 50Y too but much less noticeable.

Isn't it goofy we put ourselves through this, lol?!

I shot a 48/48 in our local FT match this weekend. That to me is rewarding because although not easy it's possible. Trying to get above 230 at 100Y on a EBR target has been such a huge struggle and a bit frustrating. 

 

[Flintsack]

Wow, congratulations on cleaning the course! Something I have never done to this date, I’ve had two 59’s out of 60....On one of those I dropped the first lane. 


40 shots no flyers 

 

[trlrman]

rw 25 hp ,single fill on the bottle from 250 down to 150 bar 50 shot's low power at 100 with a few fliers done yesterday

 

[Centercut]

Jim,

Which pellets? 18.1 JSB?

This was two magazines 20 shots RD Monsters at 100 yards with RW HP (Bleu) at 980 FPS. Coin is one inch AoA coin

 

[tommyb]

Jim,

Which pellets? 18.1 JSB?

This was two magazines 20 shots RD Monsters at 100 yards with RW HP (Bleu) at 980 FPS. Coin is one inch AoA coin

Pretty darn accurate. 16/20 shots are MOA At 100 yards if I analyzed this correctly. Mike, assume you kept same POA for all 20 shots? 

Cant wait to get my RW Safari back From AoA with the ART .22 HP barrel. Steve B told me they had to switch out a barrel and they are testing this week.

Fingers crossed! I will be so pleased if the .22 barrel shoots better than my .25 ART barrel, but we'll see. 

 

[trlrman]

Mike ,34 mkII 's 25 cal. it does pretty good on med but I did'nt think that was too shabby on low , just fun shooting not bearing down .

 

[Centercut]

Tommy, yes, same POA, evening without much wind... slight breeze. 15 of 20 are in about 1/2 inch ctc. The last shot was upper left and that’s when I said “good enough”.

Jim, that’s damn good on any power setting. Those .25 cal 34 grain are fine going slow...

 

[Chuck-in-Ohio]

Something just occurred to me, 

Is it erroneous to think of the wind as a constant, like a 2 MPH breeze is just that, 2 MPH steady?

Or, is it that there are eddies and sub currents within our steady breeze, that defy our best guesses and compensations.

Would a terrain feature like a slight rise, a shaded cooler spot, or well sundrenched hot spot influence the air currents enough to matter?



Pretty much just thinking out loud here and bouncing it off of you guys.



Some great looking targets and groups posted up by you all, CONGRATS.

Once I manage to get my 100 yard scores out of the low 200s, I might have something useful to add!

 

[AirSupply]

Arzrover is correct, and I experience the same with my Bleu Wolf and RD Monsters. That 2 or 3 unexplainable low shots at 100 yards (7 ring) seem to happen almost every card. It isn’t due to speed changes, since my 60 shot ES is approx 12 or 13 FPS. Plus the shot to shot ES is almost always less than 5 FPS. I have some ideas that I’m testing out that have to do with barrel harmonics based on varying pulse widths in microseconds that control how hard the hammer hits the valve. In a mechanical regulated gun it hits the exact same every time, but in the RW it varies based on programming and bottle pressure. More to follow if I’m successful...

I’m sure your right about harmonics.
With my Impact just as it comes off the reg and before there is more than 5 or 6fps change in velocity the groups open up. That’s with slugs. 

There is a reason the Delta Wolf has a reg. I have often considered adding a reg to my RedWolf it would just look awful and I couldn’t do it. I have shot my RedWolf tethered and it is better. 
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/harmonics-and-the-redwolf/

 

[tommyb]

Something just occurred to me, 

Is it erroneous to think of the wind as a constant, like a 2 MPH breeze is just that, 2 MPH steady?

Or, is it that there are eddies and sub currents within our steady breeze, that defy our best guesses and compensations.

Would a terrain feature like a slight rise, a shaded cooler spot, or well sundrenched hot spot influence the air currents enough to matter?



Pretty much just thinking out loud here and bouncing it off of you guys.



Some great looking targets and groups posted up by you all, CONGRATS.

Once I manage to get my 100 yard scores out of the low 200s, I might have something useful to add!

Chuck, I’m right there with you on the EBR challenges.

I’m averaging 210-212 with around 50-60 cards since Mike (CC) began the EBR Target Challenge. Wind is something I don’t understand, so I’m not qualified to comment. I’m just average at best with reading wind, and that’s being generous. 

Shot a wonderful 239 / 6X EBR 100 y card today with my Anschutz custom 1907 .22 LR, with sub MOA scoring. Broke out the RAW and shot a 206 and 208 with a 4 mph variable wind. I did adjust my holds for some, but had several fliers as well. 

No fliers with the .22 LR on the EBR 239 card. 

 

[Centercut]

Thanks for the input Michael. It doesn’t look that bad, but needs a plenum between reg and breech. I can only get it to 960 FPS. Reg set to 190 bar. Plenum can be bought from Altaros. It’s only 14cc but should be enough for .22. Without the plenum I shot two mags, 20 shots with an ES of 3 FPS. Power level 8 at about 960 FPS on HeliBoard. The more important thing is the solenoid hit is very consistent since input pressure is 190 to 191 bar. Without the plenum as is now the efficiency is horrible. Used to get 50 shots 250 to 190 bar, now get 30. Hopefully the plenum alleviates that. I’ll do an entire post on the method behind my madness once the dust settles, I have the plenum, and can get speed back to 980 to 985 FPS. I shot a couple of quick cards Sunday at 100 yards at LDs place after the 25M match with reg but no plenum. Speed at 960 with RDs. I of course was affected by wind drift but I had no inexplicable low flyer shots. Didn’t score the cards but estimate between 225 and 230.
Below: Bleu with Huma reg and CF bottle. Plenum next photo will go between breech and Huma reg.

 

[Chuck-in-Ohio]

I average 206 over my last 4 cards......☹ I got a ways to go!