Field Target is an arms race.

[Franklink]

I'm going to point out a few things here that I tend to think should be obvious but clearly are not when I hear the comments being made.

If you want to compare accuracy of anything...you don't do it by small sample group size or by shooting at a ft target. You do it by shooting benchrest cards. Lots of guns can shoot well for small sample sizes. Very few can shoot well over large sample sizes and large temperature changes.

If you don't have great wind reading skills...shoot br cards indoors from a rest or bags and obtain an average. Then do it with another gun. It will be very clear which is most accurate.

After you have established a bench average indoors.....now shoot cards indoors from your position. It will be glaringly apparent if you suck at your position. If you suck at your position then you better continue shooting from position indoors until you can at least nearly equal your bench scores.

When you can nearly shoot as well from position indoors in br cards....you're now ready to go outside and add wind on BR cards from position. Shooting at ft targets rather than paper is not going to help you know the wind. You must have 100% correct feedback every time which means seeing a hole in paper. Shooting a ft target that you cannot see where you hit is nowhere near as effective for learning wind as fast as possible. You will learn the wind the fastest by shooting over wind flags. Once you know wind over flags you can start looking at environmental cues that align with your flags so you can learn the wind without the flags.

Another huge factor in FT that most shooters seem completely oblivious to is how a gun shoots over a broad range of temperature. Lots of guns that are accurate in the morning cannot hit anything in the afternoon. Lots of them. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a lane partner hit everything in the morning after sight in and nothing after the temps came up. Most airguns do not maintain speed very well when temperatures change. Some guys learn their temp changes so they can compensate for it.

A properly tuned Thomas with the standard valve and spring will shoot the same speed range over a massive temperature change. Like 60-80 degrees. If you think that isn't significant in the game of FT....you are not very experienced or maybe you never go anywhere with a different climate. 40 degree temp swings are normal where I live. 60 degrees can happen.

Other guns also have mechanical poi changes due to temperature. This meaning that the poi is not changing with speed but because of some other shrinkage or growth of metal or other material. Thomas rifles don't do that.

If you don't know how these individual factors affect your performance....then you are wasting time. If you want to do the absolute best in the shortest amount of time with your given resources....stop practicing ft on metal targets. It will only make you sloppy.

Learning how to manage a gun and keep it in the most accurate zone is a skill that most FT shooters simply do not possess. Learning how to clean, when to clean and even the best pellets to use is not something you are going to do on a metal target with a big hole in it.

Learning to shoot 250s on 25m BR cards from position will take you places that you could never reach otherwise and it will take you there faster.

A 1/2 moa gun that never has a flier and maintains its poi over a massive change in temperature will always score more points than a 90% 1/2 moa gun that loses 40fps when the temp drops or gains when it increases. BR cards will show you this.

Mike

I dislike shooting paper, but my field target practice happens on paper. And almost always with a full sheet of 3/8" circles with a dot in the middle so I can see small changes in the impact point.

I'm a huge proponent of shooting from your actual ft position. I agree with Mike that knowing your gun is critical. And will add that being able to shoot it to its best capabilities from the bench is a different animal than being able to do so when supporting it with your body (like in an ft match). Ie. Shoot from a bench if you must to figure out the gun and how it behaves, in general, and in the wind, but also shoot it from your actual ft position to see if supporting the gun yourself changes anything. In summary, practice. Novel thought here, that practice = improvement = success. Such a foreign concept that some even call practice cheating.

 

[Bramezy]

I dislike shooting paper, but my field target practice happens on paper. And almost always with a full sheet of 3/8" circles with a dot in the middle so I can see small changes in the impact point.

I'm a huge proponent of shooting from your actual ft position. I agree with Mike that knowing your gun is critical. And will add that being able to shoot it to its best capabilities from the bench is a different animal than being able to do so when supporting it with your body (like in an ft match).

I agree, it all makes perfect sense.
I know @cavedweller is just enjoying life and airguns and trying them all! Enjoy it buddy.
If the fun is what your after then have it at. I am doing similar with what I have. I suppose its just what each person whats out of it. If just shooting your new Thomas increases your scores for any reason, then keep rocking it.

 

[cavedweller]

I'm going to point out a few things here that I tend to think should be obvious but clearly are not when I hear the comments being made.

If you want to compare accuracy of anything...you don't do it by small sample group size or by shooting at a ft target. You do it by shooting benchrest cards. Lots of guns can shoot well for small sample sizes. Very few can shoot well over large sample sizes and large temperature changes.

If you don't have great wind reading skills...shoot br cards indoors from a rest or bags and obtain an average. Then do it with another gun. It will be very clear which is most accurate.

After you have established a bench average indoors.....now shoot cards indoors from your position. It will be glaringly apparent if you suck at your position. If you suck at your position then you better continue shooting from position indoors until you can at least nearly equal your bench scores.

When you can nearly shoot as well from position indoors in br cards....you're now ready to go outside and add wind on BR cards from position. Shooting at ft targets rather than paper is not going to help you know the wind. You must have 100% correct feedback every time which means seeing a hole in paper. Shooting a ft target that you cannot see where you hit is nowhere near as effective for learning wind as fast as possible. You will learn the wind the fastest by shooting over wind flags. Once you know wind over flags you can start looking at environmental cues that align with your flags so you can learn the wind without the flags.

Another huge factor in FT that most shooters seem completely oblivious to is how a gun shoots over a broad range of temperature. Lots of guns that are accurate in the morning cannot hit anything in the afternoon. Lots of them. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a lane partner hit everything in the morning after sight in and nothing after the temps came up. Most airguns do not maintain speed very well when temperatures change. Some guys learn their temp changes so they can compensate for it.

A properly tuned Thomas with the standard valve and spring will shoot the same speed range over a massive temperature change. Like 60-80 degrees. If you think that isn't significant in the game of FT....you are not very experienced or maybe you never go anywhere with a different climate. 40 degree temp swings are normal where I live. 60 degrees can happen.

Other guns also have mechanical poi changes due to temperature. This meaning that the poi is not changing with speed but because of some other shrinkage or growth of metal or other material. Thomas rifles don't do that.

If you don't know how these individual factors affect your performance....then you are wasting time. If you want to do the absolute best in the shortest amount of time with your given resources....stop practicing ft on metal targets. It will only make you sloppy.

Learning how to manage a gun and keep it in the most accurate zone is a skill that most FT shooters simply do not possess. Learning how to clean, when to clean and even the best pellets to use is not something you are going to do on a metal target with a big hole in it.

Learning to shoot 250s on 25m BR cards from position will take you places that you could never reach otherwise and it will take you there faster.

A 1/2 moa gun that never has a flier and maintains its poi over a massive change in temperature will always score more points than a 90% 1/2 moa gun that loses 40fps when the temp drops or gains when it increases. BR cards will show you this.

Mike

Thank you for the concise wisdom! It was 94 degrees, and #0411 experienced zero shift from 72 degree indoor bench work ups to 96 degrees actual outside FT course.

 

[thomasair]

One year at Cajuns it was in the high 80s on the last day. After the match I put my gun in the trunk of the car and headed home to a massive snowstorm in Colorado, I left the gun in the car til the next morning after the storm and when I took it out the barrel was around mid 20s. The first shot over the chrono was within 4fps of my chrono test at the match nearly 65 degrees hotter. That's what they are supposed to do and what they will do if in tune with the original components as long as it's a newer gun from 2018 or later. Lots of guys ruin this feature by unwittingly making modifications to the valve and strike. It's one of the most important features of a ft gun and will trump absolute accuracy on the course over time. But if you can have absolute accuracy and absolute temp stability...then even better.

Mike

 

[JW.]

@thomasair

Hornady and Brian Litz have been doing a lot of podcasts and other media about shooting statistics and how a five shot group is essentially worthless.

I think to get a statistically significant group you need to shoot a minimum of 32 shots, something like that. I tend to shoot a lot of pellets as my testing 'groups', I figure I need around 60 shots without a 'flyer', because there are no real fliers, just bad pellets, barrels and shooters and a match is around 60 shots...

I may have to put a few 25m benchrest targets up in the shop and give it a go.

For some reason my original post needs moderation so I deleted it and posted without the quote. Weird.

 

[cavedweller]

I'm going to point out a few things here that I tend to think should be obvious but clearly are not when I hear the comments being made.

If you want to compare accuracy of anything...you don't do it by small sample group size or by shooting at a ft target. You do it by shooting benchrest cards. Lots of guns can shoot well for small sample sizes. Very few can shoot well over large sample sizes and large temperature changes.

If you don't have great wind reading skills...shoot br cards indoors from a rest or bags and obtain an average. Then do it with another gun. It will be very clear which is most accurate.

After you have established a bench average indoors.....now shoot cards indoors from your position. It will be glaringly apparent if you suck at your position. If you suck at your position then you better continue shooting from position indoors until you can at least nearly equal your bench scores.

When you can nearly shoot as well from position indoors in br cards....you're now ready to go outside and add wind on BR cards from position. Shooting at ft targets rather than paper is not going to help you know the wind. You must have 100% correct feedback every time which means seeing a hole in paper. Shooting a ft target that you cannot see where you hit is nowhere near as effective for learning wind as fast as possible. You will learn the wind the fastest by shooting over wind flags. Once you know wind over flags you can start looking at environmental cues that align with your flags so you can learn the wind without the flags.

Another huge factor in FT that most shooters seem completely oblivious to is how a gun shoots over a broad range of temperature. Lots of guns that are accurate in the morning cannot hit anything in the afternoon. Lots of them. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a lane partner hit everything in the morning after sight in and nothing after the temps came up. Most airguns do not maintain speed very well when temperatures change. Some guys learn their temp changes so they can compensate for it.

A properly tuned Thomas with the standard valve and spring will shoot the same speed range over a massive temperature change. Like 60-80 degrees. If you think that isn't significant in the game of FT....you are not very experienced or maybe you never go anywhere with a different climate. 40 degree temp swings are normal where I live. 60 degrees can happen.

Other guns also have mechanical poi changes due to temperature. This meaning that the poi is not changing with speed but because of some other shrinkage or growth of metal or other material. Thomas rifles don't do that.

If you don't know how these individual factors affect your performance....then you are wasting time. If you want to do the absolute best in the shortest amount of time with your given resources....stop practicing ft on metal targets. It will only make you sloppy.

Learning how to manage a gun and keep it in the most accurate zone is a skill that most FT shooters simply do not possess. Learning how to clean, when to clean and even the best pellets to use is not something you are going to do on a metal target with a big hole in it.

Learning to shoot 250s on 25m BR cards from position will take you places that you could never reach otherwise and it will take you there faster.

A 1/2 moa gun that never has a flier and maintains its poi over a massive change in temperature will always score more points than a 90% 1/2 moa gun that loses 40fps when the temp drops or gains when it increases. BR cards will show you this.

Mike

I'm still trying to create a particular type of FT target is designed to teach the shooter about wind as per what Mike is describing:
the inserted cards are basically BR cards, when you hit the target a paddle flips up to block a second shot. Retrieval of the card also shows a numerical score AND an indication of how well you hit (or missed) the Bullseye. Not necessarily practical for a match but certainly doable for a couple of shooters at a time or on your own clock at a range.

 

[Solo1]

My HFT-500 is a magic combo that can clear the corse. I decided to go back to my springers for the challenge. I spent two weeks with my Diana 48 and it cleared one lane twice after tweeting and getting used to it. It is a solid HFT rig now. Then my TX 200 I spent all weekend shooting with a new scope. It just about cleared the corse. The only miss was when I used the bullseye instead of the hold over or the trigger was touched and the gun went off. I shoot a lot and i’m starting to think it might not be the gun.
Next week I’m going to spend time with my old Browning Leverage and see how long it takes before it clears the corse. I think the whole gun and scope cost 250 bucks.

I believe your faith or belief that your equipment is perfect plays a big part in your score that and your belief in your ability.

 

[Bramezy]

I'm still trying to create a particular type of FT target is designed to teach the shooter about wind as per what Mike is describing:
the inserted cards are basically BR cards, when you hit the target a paddle flips up to block a second shot. Retrieval of the card also shows a numerical score AND an indication of how well you hit (or missed) the Bullseye. Not necessarily practical for a match but certainly doable for a couple of shooters at a time or on your own clock at a range.
View attachment 572743View attachment 572744View attachment 572745
View attachment 572747

I have seen these and keep trying to make something similar out of what I already have. Might have to call Paul lol.

 

[Solo1]

I practice with a field target to range then have a paper target next to it to shoot. Your working ranging and shooting same time

 

[Iowa Airgunner]

I believe your faith or belief that your equipment is perfect plays a big part in your score that and your belief in your ability.

No seriously this gum is stupid. It even hits the target when I misfire. It would be boring if it did not give me such a kick shooting it.

 

[1handwill.gc]

I'm still trying to create a particular type of FT target is designed to teach the shooter about wind as per what Mike is describing:
the inserted cards are basically BR cards, when you hit the target a paddle flips up to block a second shot. Retrieval of the card also shows a numerical score AND an indication of how well you hit (or missed) the Bullseye. Not necessarily practical for a match but certainly doable for a couple of shooters at a time or on your own clock at a range.
View attachment 572743View attachment 572744View attachment 572745
View attachment 572747

Wow, that’s perfect to practice wind reading

 

[JEFFPPC]

@thomasair

Hornady and Brian Litz have been doing a lot of podcasts and other media about shooting statistics and how a five shot group is essentially worthless.

I think to get a statistically significant group you need to shoot a minimum of 32 shots, something like that. I tend to shoot a lot of pellets as my testing 'groups', I figure I need around 60 shots without a 'flyer', because there are no real fliers, just bad pellets, barrels and shooters and a match is around 60 shots...

I may have to put a few 25m benchrest targets up in the shop and give it a go.

For some reason my original post needs moderation so I deleted it and posted without the quote. Weird.

Don't forget, they sell bullets.

 

[Croxton63]

I may regret this but, I have some stats. As yall might know I have plenty of expensive FT guns and Scopes. Even so, Prior to this weekend my highest percentage of KZ hits on a 64 shot known course was 58%.
This weekend was my first chance to run the course with - A) my new Thomas carbine and - B) my new NX8 sitting on top. I am comparing my new HFT rifle and scope to my Redwolf with a Sightron S3 (not a slouch by any means).

Although looking into the afternoon sun was problematic, West facing course, and I really needed to turn on my illuminating reticle, I didn’t, here are the results - note yards to target ranged to the right of score. One shot per target on a fairly still day.
71.8% or approx a 13% plus improvement.

For the safety of the shooter no standers or kneelers were involved.


View attachment 572669

Good work