Field Target is an arms race.
- Thread starter Franklink
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I know myself...and know there are a lot of guys that understand the game from day one.
Mike
Mike
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Figuring out the wind is just part of the recipe for ft success.
If it was chance, we wouldn't see the same couple people at the top at most of the matches they attend.
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I was “oblivious” to the wind for 2 years
now I’m totally obsessed with learning this wind game!
To date no one has made a gun or pellet combo capable of defeating the wind! If they did people would pay dearly for it!!!
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So perhaps people should pay closer attention to what pellet has the best ballistic coefficient?I was “oblivious” to the wind for 2 years
now I’m totally obsessed with learning this wind game!
To date no one has made a gun or pellet combo capable of defeating the wind! If they did people would pay dearly for it!!!
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Yes siree. The arms race can be won a little bit by seeking out high BC pellets. And further equipment advantages can be gained by learning which rifling profiles produce slightly higher BCs. And even individual barrels will sometimes produce a higher BC. "Aggregation of marginal gains" collectively make a huge difference.
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Yes, it’s a thought but as I understand it, pellet weight is very important in the wind equation… so if an arms race, it’s also an ammunition race or a clear understanding of how the wind affects a pellet and barrel combination in relation to the wind
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Exactly .... The "LUCK" lye's in that your educated guess in correction other than straight on is better than the others your shooting against !!
Luck is for the unprepared willing to expect good result .... it fostered the Cliche of "Dumb Luck"
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thomasair in post #11 hit the nail on the head . I have been shooting various disciplines for 60 years some at the National Level. True, you need a certain level of equipment but most often not the latest greatest. What you do need is the desire to do a lot of work and spend s lot of time perfecting what is necessary to shoot at an upper level. Guys won't spend a couple hundred bucks on wind flags that will last them a lifetime but blow thousands of dollars often yearly shooting pretty much blind to the conditions. A timer is about 20.00 but I see many shooters without one or not utilizing one properly at a match. You should know how long it takes you to get off x number of shots. You pay for x number of minutes to shoot a match but only utilize less than half the time, why. Just 2 examples that have little to do with money, but on working smart at your skill set. Its the Indian not the arrow. You need straight arrows not pretty arrows. Its only an arms race if you let it be.
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If it is an arms race everyone with the latest greatest would be shooting world class scores without exception. That is not the case.
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I may regret this but, I have some stats. As yall might know I have plenty of expensive FT guns and Scopes. Even so, Prior to this weekend my highest percentage of KZ hits on a 64 shot known course was 58%.
This weekend was my first chance to run the course with - A) my new Thomas carbine and - B) my new NX8 sitting on top. I am comparing my new HFT rifle and scope to my Redwolf with a Sightron S3 (not a slouch by any means).
Although looking into the afternoon sun was problematic, West facing course, and I really needed to turn on my illuminating reticle, I didn’t, here are the results - note yards to target ranged to the right of score. One shot per target on a fairly still day.
71.8% or approx a 13% plus improvement.
For the safety of the shooter no standers or kneelers were involved.
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I may regret this but, I have some stats. As yall might know I have plenty of expensive FT guns and Scopes. Even so, Prior to this weekend my highest percentage of KZ hits on a 64 shot known course was 58%.
This weekend was my first chance to run the course with - A) my new Thomas carbine and - B) my new NX8 sitting on top. I am comparing my new HFT rifle and scope to my Redwolf with a Sightron S3 (not a slouch by any means).
Although looking into the afternoon sun was problematic, West facing course, and I really needed to turn on my illuminating reticle, I didn’t, here are the results - note yards to target ranged to the right of score. One shot per target on a fairly still day.
71.8% or approx a 13% plus improvement.
For the safety of the shooter no standers or kneelers were involved.
View attachment 572669
So was it the Thomas or the NX8 for the improvement?I may regret this but, I have some stats. As yall might know I have plenty of expensive FT guns and Scopes. Even so, Prior to this weekend my highest percentage of KZ hits on a 64 shot known course was 58%.
This weekend was my first chance to run the course with - A) my new Thomas carbine and - B) my new NX8 sitting on top. I am comparing my new HFT rifle and scope to my Redwolf with a Sightron S3 (not a slouch by any means).
Although looking into the afternoon sun was problematic, West facing course, and I really needed to turn on my illuminating reticle, I didn’t, here are the results - note yards to target ranged to the right of score. One shot per target on a fairly still day.
71.8% or approx a 13% plus improvement.
For the safety of the shooter no standers or kneelers were involved.
View attachment 572669
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I race motorcycles. I always say the harder you work at home. The better your luck at the track.
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My HFT-500 is a magic combo that can clear the corse. I decided to go back to my springers for the challenge. I spent two weeks with my Diana 48 and it cleared one lane twice after tweeting and getting used to it. It is a solid HFT rig now. Then my TX 200 I spent all weekend shooting with a new scope. It just about cleared the corse. The only miss was when I used the bullseye instead of the hold over or the trigger was touched and the gun went off. I shoot a lot and i’m starting to think it might not be the gun.
Next week I’m going to spend time with my old Browning Leverage and see how long it takes before it clears the corse. I think the whole gun and scope cost 250 bucks.
Next week I’m going to spend time with my old Browning Leverage and see how long it takes before it clears the corse. I think the whole gun and scope cost 250 bucks.
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I may regret this but, I have some stats. As yall might know I have plenty of expensive FT guns and Scopes. Even so, Prior to this weekend my highest percentage of KZ hits on a 64 shot known course was 58%.
This weekend was my first chance to run the course with - A) my new Thomas carbine and - B) my new NX8 sitting on top. I am comparing my new HFT rifle and scope to my Redwolf with a Sightron S3 (not a slouch by any means).
Although looking into the afternoon sun was problematic, West facing course, and I really needed to turn on my illuminating reticle, I didn’t, here are the results - note yards to target ranged to the right of score. One shot per target on a fairly still day.
71.8% or approx a 13% plus improvement.
For the safety of the shooter no standers or kneelers were involved.
View attachment 572669
I'm not surprised by your 13% improvement. It's likely multifactorial....the most obvious, and germane to this topic, is the equipment. But you've also been doing this longer now, so practice and experience. And the placebo effect of feeling you've now got the ultimate gun/scope combination is probably at play too.
So what were your misses? Mis-ranged? Brain fart/wrong holdover? Incorrect wind read? General instability? (And in a MUCH lower prevalence....flyers?)
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How about an old Sling and pebble (David and Goliath type ) with limits on sling length and pebble weight of course .
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Im kind of surprised of any improvement unless it was just conditions or whatever. The Thomas setup is not much more accurate than a RW. Not sure how you can really improve on 1/2 MOA or better at 50y from a RW. Its so minute at the difference that I dont see anyones score going up from it. Benchrest, possibly a tad but thats it. I shoot with too many of each. Its more the person understanding how to use their tools and have the dope and ranging setup right and handling the conditions properly. I beat many RWs and Thomas with my Marauder. You can buy accuracy to a point.
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Most all misses were related to targets with very small or illegal sized KZ's. For instance if i missed a target using holdover... i would then dial in the correct clicks and try again and the target would fall... so mostly holdover challenges, i didn't count the reshoots as it was just a dope validation.
Other misses had to do with me facing into an afternoon setting sun. I'm going to put my other NX8 on my other Redwolf and run the course the same way and time next weekend and see what the Gun V Scope, stats look like.
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I'm going to point out a few things here that I tend to think should be obvious but clearly are not when I hear the comments being made.
If you want to compare accuracy of anything...you don't do it by small sample group size or by shooting at a ft target. You do it by shooting benchrest cards. Lots of guns can shoot well for small sample sizes. Very few can shoot well over large sample sizes and large temperature changes.
If you don't have great wind reading skills...shoot br cards indoors from a rest or bags and obtain an average. Then do it with another gun. It will be very clear which is most accurate.
After you have established a bench average indoors.....now shoot cards indoors from your position. It will be glaringly apparent if you suck at your position. If you suck at your position then you better continue shooting from position indoors until you can at least nearly equal your bench scores.
When you can nearly shoot as well from position indoors in br cards....you're now ready to go outside and add wind on BR cards from position. Shooting at ft targets rather than paper is not going to help you know the wind. You must have 100% correct feedback every time which means seeing a hole in paper. Shooting a ft target that you cannot see where you hit is nowhere near as effective for learning wind as fast as possible. You will learn the wind the fastest by shooting over wind flags. Once you know wind over flags you can start looking at environmental cues that align with your flags so you can learn the wind without the flags.
Another huge factor in FT that most shooters seem completely oblivious to is how a gun shoots over a broad range of temperature. Lots of guns that are accurate in the morning cannot hit anything in the afternoon. Lots of them. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a lane partner hit everything in the morning after sight in and nothing after the temps came up. Most airguns do not maintain speed very well when temperatures change. Some guys learn their temp changes so they can compensate for it.
A properly tuned Thomas with the standard valve and spring will shoot the same speed range over a massive temperature change. Like 60-80 degrees. If you think that isn't significant in the game of FT....you are not very experienced or maybe you never go anywhere with a different climate. 40 degree temp swings are normal where I live. 60 degrees can happen.
Other guns also have mechanical poi changes due to temperature. This meaning that the poi is not changing with speed but because of some other shrinkage or growth of metal or other material. Thomas rifles don't do that.
If you don't know how these individual factors affect your performance....then you are wasting time. If you want to do the absolute best in the shortest amount of time with your given resources....stop practicing ft on metal targets. It will only make you sloppy.
Learning how to manage a gun and keep it in the most accurate zone is a skill that most FT shooters simply do not possess. Learning how to clean, when to clean and even the best pellets to use is not something you are going to do on a metal target with a big hole in it.
Learning to shoot 250s on 25m BR cards from position will take you places that you could never reach otherwise and it will take you there faster.
A 1/2 moa gun that never has a flier and maintains its poi over a massive change in temperature will always score more points than a 90% 1/2 moa gun that loses 40fps when the temp drops or gains when it increases. BR cards will show you this.
Mike
If you want to compare accuracy of anything...you don't do it by small sample group size or by shooting at a ft target. You do it by shooting benchrest cards. Lots of guns can shoot well for small sample sizes. Very few can shoot well over large sample sizes and large temperature changes.
If you don't have great wind reading skills...shoot br cards indoors from a rest or bags and obtain an average. Then do it with another gun. It will be very clear which is most accurate.
After you have established a bench average indoors.....now shoot cards indoors from your position. It will be glaringly apparent if you suck at your position. If you suck at your position then you better continue shooting from position indoors until you can at least nearly equal your bench scores.
When you can nearly shoot as well from position indoors in br cards....you're now ready to go outside and add wind on BR cards from position. Shooting at ft targets rather than paper is not going to help you know the wind. You must have 100% correct feedback every time which means seeing a hole in paper. Shooting a ft target that you cannot see where you hit is nowhere near as effective for learning wind as fast as possible. You will learn the wind the fastest by shooting over wind flags. Once you know wind over flags you can start looking at environmental cues that align with your flags so you can learn the wind without the flags.
Another huge factor in FT that most shooters seem completely oblivious to is how a gun shoots over a broad range of temperature. Lots of guns that are accurate in the morning cannot hit anything in the afternoon. Lots of them. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a lane partner hit everything in the morning after sight in and nothing after the temps came up. Most airguns do not maintain speed very well when temperatures change. Some guys learn their temp changes so they can compensate for it.
A properly tuned Thomas with the standard valve and spring will shoot the same speed range over a massive temperature change. Like 60-80 degrees. If you think that isn't significant in the game of FT....you are not very experienced or maybe you never go anywhere with a different climate. 40 degree temp swings are normal where I live. 60 degrees can happen.
Other guns also have mechanical poi changes due to temperature. This meaning that the poi is not changing with speed but because of some other shrinkage or growth of metal or other material. Thomas rifles don't do that.
If you don't know how these individual factors affect your performance....then you are wasting time. If you want to do the absolute best in the shortest amount of time with your given resources....stop practicing ft on metal targets. It will only make you sloppy.
Learning how to manage a gun and keep it in the most accurate zone is a skill that most FT shooters simply do not possess. Learning how to clean, when to clean and even the best pellets to use is not something you are going to do on a metal target with a big hole in it.
Learning to shoot 250s on 25m BR cards from position will take you places that you could never reach otherwise and it will take you there faster.
A 1/2 moa gun that never has a flier and maintains its poi over a massive change in temperature will always score more points than a 90% 1/2 moa gun that loses 40fps when the temp drops or gains when it increases. BR cards will show you this.
Mike
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