Yep, of those that have showed up and shot the matches, everybody has gone along with the flow, 100% drama-free, just there to have fun. And I was one of those guys saying I needed to spend some time with shooting sticks.
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Extreme FT rules and positions
- Thread starter Centercut
- Start date
Yep, of those that have showed up and shot the matches, everybody has gone along with the flow, 100% drama-free, just there to have fun. And I was one of those guys saying I needed to spend some time with shooting sticks.
At 5'-7" I vote for the 8" bucket because using a regular height bucket would put me at a huge disadvantage. Might even be dangerous if I fell off.
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If you have a note from your doctor. Or your nurse. Or a lady that sometimes dresses like a nurse, as long as money changes hands.
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I am going to put my 2 cents in on this conversation. This match isn't a sanctioned match and there is no sanctioning for it. It was put together by the match direction and a few other folks with the intention of give us shooters another type of field target shooting. I have shot the course and it took a lot of work to set up and organize. So the match director came up with rules that he thinks are fair and equitable to all the shooters. I guess no one has heard of the saying " When in Rome". So I will probably piss some of you off but I can do that easily. If the rules are shooting off a small backless stool or bucket and some kind of shooting sticks then that is the rule. It doesn't matter that you can get into a pretzel and shoot standing on your head or if you want to shoot off a pillow. You shoot off the allowed equipment and get over it. End of story!
If you want to start your own match and do all the work setting it up with little or no help have at it and we will go by your rules you come up with. Everyone has to shoot the same way and and with the same type of equipment.If you dont have the proper equipment then a small stool or bucket and sticks will be provided. If you want to use a range finder to verify the ranges I say go for it but the ranges were measured using a tape measure. There are no wind flags and very little vegetation to give you wind readings. So you better be paying more attention to that than worrying about if you stool is under or over 8". The course is tough and it shows in the scores. The range has rules and they wont be bent to your liking and the course rules shouldn't be done that way either. Now if you are handicapped in any way then yes that can be looked into. So I say show up pay your match fee and go out and have a good time and let the best man or lady kick ass.
One other thought. For first time field target shooters I would say allow them to be in a Freestyle class to where almost anything goes for 2 matches. After that you shoot like everyone else in doing. Just be glad the director isn't doing things like NRL and make you shoot off a tree stump, weak handed and weak eyed. I will stop my rant and hopefully I made some sense.
If you want to start your own match and do all the work setting it up with little or no help have at it and we will go by your rules you come up with. Everyone has to shoot the same way and and with the same type of equipment.If you dont have the proper equipment then a small stool or bucket and sticks will be provided. If you want to use a range finder to verify the ranges I say go for it but the ranges were measured using a tape measure. There are no wind flags and very little vegetation to give you wind readings. So you better be paying more attention to that than worrying about if you stool is under or over 8". The course is tough and it shows in the scores. The range has rules and they wont be bent to your liking and the course rules shouldn't be done that way either. Now if you are handicapped in any way then yes that can be looked into. So I say show up pay your match fee and go out and have a good time and let the best man or lady kick ass.
One other thought. For first time field target shooters I would say allow them to be in a Freestyle class to where almost anything goes for 2 matches. After that you shoot like everyone else in doing. Just be glad the director isn't doing things like NRL and make you shoot off a tree stump, weak handed and weak eyed. I will stop my rant and hopefully I made some sense.
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@Sturkis, best comments I've seen out of this whole dumpster fire discussion. Spot on in all regards.
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I get more and more confused every time someone posts another thought. One thing I can agree with on the post by @sturkis is show up pay your match fee and have a good time. This is something I have been doing since it started. I am completely baffled by the continuous pounding of shooting with buckets and sticks. It’s not a rule, it’s never been a rule and if you assumed it was a rule then that is on you. I have shot off of my bumbag and sticks and specifically asked the match director of it was ok and was told no problem. There has NEVER been any indication that it was a rule. based on every match I have attended and have attended them all it has been stated by the match director that this is OUR match and any suggestions can be looked at to make it what we want. Send an email with thoughts and suggestions and it will be addressed at the next match. We will vote on as a group and that is how the rules will made. Why all of a sudden this is such a BIG issue is quite perplexing to me.
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@Sturkis...while I might agree with the message that you send here, I think it's outside the debate that's going on.
From the very beginning, we have been told it's OUR match and that we will vote on the rules. Since you have actually shot in a match, you should have a copy of the rules that were provided at the last one. If not, here is a refresher...
Given that there is no rule restricting seating other than back or arms support, most of what you say is irrelevant. The discussion here is around FORCING seating to be one dimensional and it is being propagated as if it's a rule already with no discussion. I feel like there is quite a bit of animosity surrounding this with not much logical support. In several of our replies, we are merely saying that restrictions on MORE is fine but restricting a simpler form doesn't make a lot of sense , especially when it is not being considered an advantage.
But above all that is still my statement that we were supposed to be voting on this as a group and no discussion has happened prior to stating that it is now a rule. It seems like there is a pretty good representation of the intent in the rules as they are. Not sure why several here want everything to be more complicated. The prone advantage can be controlled by course setup.... why make unnecessary rules? Bum bags have not been shown to be an advantage without the harness. Is a rule necessary here?
My arguments are just based around unneeded complexity and over control. I REALLY hate a lot of what's gone on in AAFTA since I began competeting so many years ago. I still shoot it because I enjoy it but I guess I don't really understand some people's need to CONTROL things. This one, in particular, is pretty baffling.
Soooo.... until we actually vote on it.....
Bob
From the very beginning, we have been told it's OUR match and that we will vote on the rules. Since you have actually shot in a match, you should have a copy of the rules that were provided at the last one. If not, here is a refresher...
Given that there is no rule restricting seating other than back or arms support, most of what you say is irrelevant. The discussion here is around FORCING seating to be one dimensional and it is being propagated as if it's a rule already with no discussion. I feel like there is quite a bit of animosity surrounding this with not much logical support. In several of our replies, we are merely saying that restrictions on MORE is fine but restricting a simpler form doesn't make a lot of sense , especially when it is not being considered an advantage.
But above all that is still my statement that we were supposed to be voting on this as a group and no discussion has happened prior to stating that it is now a rule. It seems like there is a pretty good representation of the intent in the rules as they are. Not sure why several here want everything to be more complicated. The prone advantage can be controlled by course setup.... why make unnecessary rules? Bum bags have not been shown to be an advantage without the harness. Is a rule necessary here?
My arguments are just based around unneeded complexity and over control. I REALLY hate a lot of what's gone on in AAFTA since I began competeting so many years ago. I still shoot it because I enjoy it but I guess I don't really understand some people's need to CONTROL things. This one, in particular, is pretty baffling.
Soooo.... until we actually vote on it.....
Bob
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Why not?
When you go hunting do you have to follow any rules on equipment you taking with you? or you using whatever you want or can carry with you
To many rules that are pushing new shooters away.
B
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One question guys.
Why limit the scope magnification to x25 if distances are know?
I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense to me, just another unnecessary rule, or I'm missing something?
Don't make it 100 pages long rule book for the game we basically play for fun in our "back yard"
I tried to get few people in to FT shooting but most of them passed after TRYING to read the rules
The simpler it is the more people will get involved.
B
Why limit the scope magnification to x25 if distances are know?
I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense to me, just another unnecessary rule, or I'm missing something?
Don't make it 100 pages long rule book for the game we basically play for fun in our "back yard"
I tried to get few people in to FT shooting but most of them passed after TRYING to read the rules
The simpler it is the more people will get involved.
B
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@arzrover,
I liked Sturgis comment because it pointed out that the guy that put in all the work could really just say, “nope, this is how it’s gonna be fellas,” and would have every right to do so, just like Airngasman pointed out that a match director should be able to do.
But Ben isn’t like that and he’s taking the long-view in all of this. Allowing us a vote and allowing the matches to be “shooter’s matches” gives us a chance to make this what we want it to be. On that note, I’m fully aware that my opinion counts for exactly one vote, nothing more. By being vocal on this I’m not trying to wrest control or become the head honcho.
I simply enjoy the matches and want them to continue in the format they have been occurring, which I think is what you also want. My desire to have an established shooting position is to keep things fair for everyone. As has been pointed out, everyone that is coming to matches “gets” it, and has been shooting from sticks, so this is really a matter of any potential future shooters and future growth of this type of competition.
We’ve had in-person conversations where you’ve shared your thoughts on bureaucracy and over-reach. We see eye to eye on all of that. The personal stance I have taken (and how I’ll vote when it comes down to it) is in line with that desire for keeping this simple. One simple rule limiting the allowed shooting position will keep Extreme FT from becoming the fragmented and over-complicated situation that regular field target is. One simple rule limiting the allowed shooting position keeps us all from getting pissed off when we’ve practiced for months from THE implied shooting position and some innovator (going with that word in an attempt at being less controversial) shows up in the future in some new-fangled position that puts the rest of us at a disadvantage and quite possibly some of us aren’t even physically capable of.
I don’t even care what that position is. If off-hand is voted in as the only allowed position, then by golly I’ll start practicing my off-hand. I just want one rule added (a very carefully worded rule at that) that keeps us all on a level playing field and won’t wipe away months (or more?) of practice (current or future) when some joker figures out a loophole and shows up to a match shooting in a more advantageous position than what the rest of us have been doing all along.
Airngasman has had some wonderful little pearls of wisdom throughout all of this discussion. At one point he stated something about history repeating itself. I’d like to not see that happen, and, IMHO, voting on one simple rule limiting us to one allowed shooting position (perhaps even the same position that we're already all shooting in?) will keep us from needing lots of other rules and further complication in the future.
(And if the vote swings the other way and it becomes a free-for-all, no holds-barred, toss-up, do whatever the hell you want situation…….insert evil villain making a sneaky face here……..oh boy will I ever be all over that. And I will also accept that vote for what it may be, the opinion of the majority….as long as we can prove there wasn’t any voter fraud, jk.)
I liked Sturgis comment because it pointed out that the guy that put in all the work could really just say, “nope, this is how it’s gonna be fellas,” and would have every right to do so, just like Airngasman pointed out that a match director should be able to do.
But Ben isn’t like that and he’s taking the long-view in all of this. Allowing us a vote and allowing the matches to be “shooter’s matches” gives us a chance to make this what we want it to be. On that note, I’m fully aware that my opinion counts for exactly one vote, nothing more. By being vocal on this I’m not trying to wrest control or become the head honcho.
I simply enjoy the matches and want them to continue in the format they have been occurring, which I think is what you also want. My desire to have an established shooting position is to keep things fair for everyone. As has been pointed out, everyone that is coming to matches “gets” it, and has been shooting from sticks, so this is really a matter of any potential future shooters and future growth of this type of competition.
We’ve had in-person conversations where you’ve shared your thoughts on bureaucracy and over-reach. We see eye to eye on all of that. The personal stance I have taken (and how I’ll vote when it comes down to it) is in line with that desire for keeping this simple. One simple rule limiting the allowed shooting position will keep Extreme FT from becoming the fragmented and over-complicated situation that regular field target is. One simple rule limiting the allowed shooting position keeps us all from getting pissed off when we’ve practiced for months from THE implied shooting position and some innovator (going with that word in an attempt at being less controversial) shows up in the future in some new-fangled position that puts the rest of us at a disadvantage and quite possibly some of us aren’t even physically capable of.
I don’t even care what that position is. If off-hand is voted in as the only allowed position, then by golly I’ll start practicing my off-hand. I just want one rule added (a very carefully worded rule at that) that keeps us all on a level playing field and won’t wipe away months (or more?) of practice (current or future) when some joker figures out a loophole and shows up to a match shooting in a more advantageous position than what the rest of us have been doing all along.
Airngasman has had some wonderful little pearls of wisdom throughout all of this discussion. At one point he stated something about history repeating itself. I’d like to not see that happen, and, IMHO, voting on one simple rule limiting us to one allowed shooting position (perhaps even the same position that we're already all shooting in?) will keep us from needing lots of other rules and further complication in the future.
(And if the vote swings the other way and it becomes a free-for-all, no holds-barred, toss-up, do whatever the hell you want situation…….insert evil villain making a sneaky face here……..oh boy will I ever be all over that. And I will also accept that vote for what it may be, the opinion of the majority….as long as we can prove there wasn’t any voter fraud, jk.)
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Curious... Ha, no doubt a communist plot to destroy all that is good and wholesome. Darn glutinites do that yuh know
The gist of the point I was trying to convey was concerning the "future" things that could become a problem.
#1 was the timer not being used.
#2 in the spirit of fairness for all, which I think is what EAFT is all about, was to make sure everyone can engage the target, not that this has happened so far in EAFT that I know of but I did see the hay bales in front of the first lane. I wasn't there the last two times so I couldn't say one way or another. The future, who knows???
If EBR AFT did allow the target KZ's to be just out of sight for some people on purpose, necessitating them to shoot off of sticks while kneeling or standing, while others still being able to engage by sitting, then I don't agree. Actually the first thing I thought of was Abby wouldn't even be able to see the KZ if she was standing which was true, that was downright unfair. If EBR AFT did it unintentionally, I still don't agree but oversights happen. I've shot tactical matches for 13 years so I'm familiar with "solving the problem" to engage a target but have NOT been in a place similar to what Abby experienced.
But again, whatever happens to EAFT happens, and it's hard to be perfect so I'll just roll with the punches as usual. As you know I don't complain much, prefering to laugh at the drama instead. It's just another gun game to me.
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I think the biggest issue at this venue is the acacia thorns and broken glass that has been out there since the club started. Personally I dont want to put a 3" thorn out of steve123's ass if he sits on one!! They are hidden and cant be seen all the time and if you are using a bag you might get stuck. Trust me they are long and sharp and dont care where they stick you. Maybe as the game progresses and grows then other styles could be incorporated ( not saying it will) but time will tell. This is still in its infancy and as everything evolves so will it.
I have shot with steve123 many times in PRS and they make targets difficult to see from certain positions. So you have to be flexible and innovative enough to overcome that because they wont change to course because you cant see a KZ from the position you chose to shoot from.You have to adapter to your surroundings. So I guess what I am saying is just have fun with it the way it is but bring your suggestions up and then they can be looked at and validated. Getting into a pissing contest isn't going to solve anything. I think we all want to see it grow in a positive way.
There are always " Gamers" that try to skirt the rules as in any sport as steve123 can attest to. So you have to be attentive to address the rules properly and very concisely or they will be skirted.
It is a great course and will be changing as time goes by. It is very challenging right now the way it is and you have to be on your toes all the time. If you haven't shot the course then dont question the methods or the way it is run at this time until you have tried it. Pay your match fee and bring your "A" game because anyone can win as it is now whether you are a seasoned shooter or a beginner. If the shooting Gods on with you then you will do good.
Come out and have a great time .shoot with great people and enjoy yourself!! It is fun and different.
I have shot with steve123 many times in PRS and they make targets difficult to see from certain positions. So you have to be flexible and innovative enough to overcome that because they wont change to course because you cant see a KZ from the position you chose to shoot from.You have to adapter to your surroundings. So I guess what I am saying is just have fun with it the way it is but bring your suggestions up and then they can be looked at and validated. Getting into a pissing contest isn't going to solve anything. I think we all want to see it grow in a positive way.
There are always " Gamers" that try to skirt the rules as in any sport as steve123 can attest to. So you have to be attentive to address the rules properly and very concisely or they will be skirted.
It is a great course and will be changing as time goes by. It is very challenging right now the way it is and you have to be on your toes all the time. If you haven't shot the course then dont question the methods or the way it is run at this time until you have tried it. Pay your match fee and bring your "A" game because anyone can win as it is now whether you are a seasoned shooter or a beginner. If the shooting Gods on with you then you will do good.
Come out and have a great time .shoot with great people and enjoy yourself!! It is fun and different.
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Yes, Franklink... I think we see eye to eye on most things... probably this included. I counseled Ben to set it like he wanted from the beginning. I shoot from the stool with sticks so I'm not trying to change that. In this event , if timed properly , it's difficult to see someone NOT shooting that way ... if you control the prone view. You know most of us are unlikely to seek an alternative position but I can certainly see that as a possibility for many reasons, and given that the other rules limit gadgetry already, shooting from a bum bag can pose no real advantage that I , or anyone else so far, can see.
What I ... and others are debating is unnecessary , unneeded rules. This seriously falls into that category.
Ben chose to require... not allow, shooter input. Then there was publication of a change(unneeded in my view) without any discussion or vote. THIS is what my argument is about to me.
@B.... Ben limited scope magnification in an attempt to limit the advantage of more money=more advantage. He's tried to do this with the disallowed devices listed in the rules above as well. Given that there are very few good ways to see the wind on this particular venue, mirage plays a big part, and higher mag means mirage is more visible. He realizes there are cheap, high mag scopes, just trying to set the limit at what is common for most scope brands.
Bob
What I ... and others are debating is unnecessary , unneeded rules. This seriously falls into that category.
Ben chose to require... not allow, shooter input. Then there was publication of a change(unneeded in my view) without any discussion or vote. THIS is what my argument is about to me.
@B.... Ben limited scope magnification in an attempt to limit the advantage of more money=more advantage. He's tried to do this with the disallowed devices listed in the rules above as well. Given that there are very few good ways to see the wind on this particular venue, mirage plays a big part, and higher mag means mirage is more visible. He realizes there are cheap, high mag scopes, just trying to set the limit at what is common for most scope brands.
Bob
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I’m with B on the scope power thing. The high mag is advantageous when you need the scope to range. Don’t see that the extra power would do much for a game with posted ranges. That rule will prevent me from playing, just because I don’t have a scope that conforms to the 25x rule and I’m not going to buy a scope for one game that won’t serve me in any of the other games I play.
I can’t help but enjoy the irony of a few guys creating 7 pages of controversy to fix something that apparently was never broken...all in the name of harmony and goodwill for the game.
Mike
I can’t help but enjoy the irony of a few guys creating 7 pages of controversy to fix something that apparently was never broken...all in the name of harmony and goodwill for the game.
Mike
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Bobby...I get the mirage thing. I use mirage a lot. Some guys can’t see it with any scope and some can certainly see it with 25x.
Mike
Mike
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This isn't one person going out hunting and doing whatever he/she wants. This is a shooting competition that has to have some type of structure to hopefully encapsulate some semblance of fairness for all. In other words there HAS to be rules.
It was either postulated to Ben, or he came up with his own opinion, that magnification at 24/25x would be disadvantaged compared to someone with say 50x magnification to due to the ability to make out mirage easier, thereby giving the person with higher magnification an advantage. There are no wind flags at EAFT, so feel of wind, natural indicators of wind like grass, leaves, etc, and mirage, are the only ways to determine intensity or direction of wind. It seemed capping at 25x was the most logical since 6-24's and 5-25's are extremely common these days.
The current rules in EAFT are simple in comparison to most other shooting sports. Hunting is hunting, but as you might know there are rules set in place for that too.
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@thomasair It really is pretty funny. I’m glad your enjoying it. I sit back and read and sometimes reread people’s posts and wonder how some of their thought processes work as I am sure they do the same with me. I really would love to see you shoot it sometime so if for any reason you do get a scope that would work and figure out a way to shoot for fun
we do have a blast and is is anyone’s game to win.
we do have a blast and is is anyone’s game to win. Upvote 0
The other part I struggle with is the heavy aversion toward specific rules. Sure, it’s no fun to sit down and try to figure rules to keep everyone in line....but it could have been done easily by now and it would be over with. Being specific doesn’t take away from the game. If something new comes up...add a few sentences in. No big deal.
Most beginners don’t need to read a bunch of rules and worry over this or that. They can just show up and learn by example very quickly....especially if teamed up with an experienced shooter. They can ask some questions and get everything they need.
For many...these are just games. Games require rules. Nobody should be expected to know the spirit of the creator and the vision they had for the game. Folks should have some latitude to tailor their shooting position to suit them best. Creative and determined folks will spend more time getting that together than those just shooting for fun. That should be respected, not frowned upon.
Mike
Most beginners don’t need to read a bunch of rules and worry over this or that. They can just show up and learn by example very quickly....especially if teamed up with an experienced shooter. They can ask some questions and get everything they need.
For many...these are just games. Games require rules. Nobody should be expected to know the spirit of the creator and the vision they had for the game. Folks should have some latitude to tailor their shooting position to suit them best. Creative and determined folks will spend more time getting that together than those just shooting for fun. That should be respected, not frowned upon.
Mike
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