Excellent barrel bore scope video from Matt!

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A great video by Matt as usual, however I was a bit suprised about his comments on the ART barrel at 28.50, as far as I know DAYSTATE worked with Ben Taylor before FX in conjunction to develop the ST process but niaively IMO didn't go forward with it, secondly a poly barrel is a poly barrel as far as concept and LW were making poly barrels for a long time previous.

We have disscussed at length about other "similar" looking concepts VS the IMPACT, I dont agree the DELTAWOLF is a copy of an IMPACT although it looks like one, just as the PROPHET and PRIEST do etc.

Also IMO a digital borescope is no match for a medical endoscope as far as bore examination goes, of course a HAWKEYE is an awful lot more expensive and delicate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAR1myxvFjs








 
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I'm just finishing the video. Having just purchased a rifle with a LW poly barrel, I was hoping to see one with some use.

Two things about smooth twist x

1. I know they are great, but they still make different liners for type of projectile; so it's not like buy one and you can shoot everything.

2. If a barrel really loves one pellet and shoots it lights out, I don't find issue with that. I like different airguns platforms, and firearms, so I am never opposed to having a dedicated rifle to a certain need (projectile specific.)
 
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LOL! looks like a few of us posted the same topic at the same time, some very interesting points being made here!

I was under the impression that some manufacturers now also stress relieved after hammer forging, the one benefit to hammer forging and also button rifling is that they usually last longer, the STEYR .308 barrels wouldusually do 10,000 rounds, my cut rifled barrels sometimes don't last 2,000 and don't even go there with 6.5-284 barrels!
 
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Not trying to start anything but I went back and watched the vid again. Matt did not say a word about the ART barrel being a copy. He said the Delta Wolf was trying to copy. Something I have seen many here say.
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Look at approx 29:30. Not trying to start anything but he certainly did say that Daystate was trying to copy FX with their ART barrel.

When talking about the ART barrel and why he’s not discussing it, he gives three reasons:

“Third reason is that it’s very very clear that Daystate has just tried to copy what FX has done to try and get the same performance and I don’t support companies that copy other companies…”

After that and at the end of that sentence he mentions the Delta Wolf. “Trying to be an Impact”. So he flat out says Daystate is trying to copy FX with the ART barrel and he also says the Delta Wolf is a copy of the Impact. I can understand his motivation since he is an FX employee being paid by FX to say this sort of thing. It’s just a shame he couldn’t make a good informative video without bashing another company.
 
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Now this my and purely my speculation: not all polygon barrels are the same.Traditional LW polygon barrels have always been 6 grooves or hexagonal as far as I can tell. Some very advanced Airguners on this forum have tried multiple times custom fitting a factory LW polygon barrel with sub par results.


FX is using 5 grooves design similar to R5 rifling. Because they have manufacturing method that is extremely fast they have tested hundreds of barrel/multi-radial profiles with tons of ammo. We all know that 1/100th of an inch makes night and day difference especially with slugs. 


the Art barrels incidentally are also 5 grooves which IMHO is not an accident and it is completely conceivable they just measured the internal profile of an FX barrel and told LW to make these barrels with these dimensions. We all know LW certainly isn’t going to spend much time testing airgun stuff. And having even only 20 different one off rifling profiles made by LW is expensive and very time consuming. One offs are not charged per barrel, it’s charged per process(parts and tooling) and man hours. 


Again this is purely my speculation and I’m pretty sure Matt with his in-depth knowledge of FX barrels wouldn’t say daystate is copying FX barrel just because it’s a polygon style barrel. Also don’t think it’s coincidence that they both shoot NSA .217 slugs very well. It is possible daystate simply rolled a dice and it landed on 5 so they decided on 5 grooves and picked a rifling profile for polygon style barrel that worked well. 




 
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From what I understand, Daystate has tried about 40 different barrel profiles in the testing of the A.R.T. program and the new Delta Wolf. Not all are 5 sided, some are 6. R&D is just that, Research and Development. I have one of those test barrels in my .22 DS RW HP (Bleu). If Matt had a reason to say Daystate copied, he should have stated that reason. But crickets...
 
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From what I understand, Daystate has tried about 40 different barrel profiles in the testing of the A.R.T. program and the new Delta Wolf. Not all are 5 sided, some are 6. R&D is just that, Research and Development. I have one of those test barrels in my .22 DS RW HP (Bleu). If Matt had a reason to say Daystate copied, he should have stated that reason. But crickets...
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good to know! Think we all agree that the copy statement isn’t necessary and doesn’t add any value to an otherwise excellent video. 
 
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Do you know what ART stands for? Accuracy Research Team which is apart of Daystates team that has been testing these barrels for along time. Not a standard LW Polygonal but a Daystate specific made barrel with its own specifications. 

Also just cause they shoot .217 NSAs doesn't mean anything. They also tweaked the barrels to get them to do that. Oh and unlike FX dropping NSA after all the testing with them to go with Rat Sniper Slugs aka FX Hybrids. Daystate has NSA making there Howler slugs.

Also funny how Matt came out with Patriot Javelin slugs after dealing with NSA for quite some time. You know those are pretty similar to them so he must have copied as well.

All this to say Matt knows basically nothing about the Daystate ART barrels and him making those accusations is very hypocritical. What Matt says isn't gospel that's for sure. Just a one sided story.
 
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You can’t dismiss the competition like Matt did in the video. FX didn’t invent the smooth twist,but they improved it. All arguments aside, if daystate improves upon Fx Smooth twist x, the consumer and industry benefits. Competition is necessary for innovation. Matt’s position is that of a FX employee/contractor. I still trust his knowledge, but his bias has to be considered. 
 
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You can’t dismiss the competition like Matt did in the video. FX didn’t invent the smooth twist,but they improved it. All arguments aside, if daystate improves upon Fx Smooth twist x, the consumer and industry benefits. Competition is necessary for innovation. Matt’s position is that of a FX employee/contractor. I still trust his knowledge, but his bias has to be considered.
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completely agree!



If FX can prove daystate truly copied their design that infringed the laws then they can duke it out in court. We as consumers certain do benefit with healthy competition! All the quibbling around on who copied who is not of my concern at the very least, granted it’s a way to kill some time on the internet….a positive in its own right. At the end of the day we have many guns that shoot phenomenally well to choose from so it’s a win for us regardless you have daystate, FX or both or both plus more. I for one refuse to give loyalty to a brand at all, they need to earn my business/$$$ at every single purchase. 


now back to the technical side of the video, I have seen from many other sources that hammer forge and button rifles are mass produced and cheaper barrels because majority of the process handled by machines and doesn’t need additional finishing steps. Cheaper doesn’t always mean not as good, hammer forge is most expensive to setup initially. Cut barrels are usually more custom order with a lot of manual steps like lapping and polishing and therefore more expensive but you can order custom twist rate like 1:7.25. I’m still a big fan of BSA and TJ hammer forged barrels because Airguns don’t have heat problems at all so it’s one of the most consistent with smoothest finish without the added cost of additional steps like lap and polish. I am curious if gain twist barrels will ever make it into Airguns, FX is in the best position to implement it and it would be similar concept as the original ST barrels. 


the sharp land marks from the LW lands are much more pronounced so it does make sense that it catches more wind but with out side by side testing under exact condition it’s hard to quantify. However one of the reasons I personally really like FX barrels is the fact that I literally don’t clean my barrel either. The couple of times I did clean it he barrel the accuracy went down and took a while to come back so what Matt and Ted said about not cleaning FX barrels is 100% true in my personal experience. I think it would be very safe to assume same can be applied to all smooth/polygon style barrels. 




Edit: although I’m not sure I would agree with Matt on LW barrel isn’t good for long range shooting because LW makes a lot of long range barrels that do perform well. His Tikka barrel is not any different than a LW barrel with sharp lands beside the manufacturing process. LW do make a lot of 10M barrels with 1:12 twist but that doesn’t mean they don’t make barrels for long distance. Again having sharp marks on the pellet/slugs is conceivably a slight negative but without qualification it’s hard to argue one vs another. Given the polygon barrel’s sensitivity to ammo I think any gain is erased by the difficulty of achieving that little bit of gain. 
 
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In the AEAC FX tour Steve talked to the father (founder) and son. The father didn’t initially want to make the Impact, it wasn’t their look. The son forced it and it was a success. They reaped the benefits for several years. 
I’m sure Daystate users and dealers demanded something similar. The cold hard facts is that to have something with equivalent tuning, there are only certain places parts on an air rifle can go. 


if I asked you to design me a propane gas grill that has easy use of work, I bet that grill is going to resemble something already on the market. 
 
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There are only so many ways to make a "tactical" looking gun. If anything, the Delta looks like a PRS to me. My Evol looks very similar. Right now there are several guns out there that have that very same look to them.

And, not defending the "copy" comment. But he did say he doesn't know much about Daystate and their barrels. Evidently not. I agree that it was a good and informative video. That one little reason 3 could have been left off and it would have been so much better. While I was watching the video, I even said to myself "why'd he say that?" Overall, good video.



Crusher


 
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There are only so many ways to make a "tactical" looking gun. If anything, the Delta looks like a PRS to me. My Evol looks very similar. Right now there are several guns out there that have that very same look to them.

And, not defending the "copy" comment. But he did say he doesn't know much about Daystate and their barrels. Evidently not. I agree that it was a good and informative video. That one little reason 3 could have been left off and it would have been so much better. While I was watching the video, I even said to myself "why'd he say that?" Overall, good video.



Crusher

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I think we all said “why did he say that”?. It provided no value! In a tactical crazy world, I don’t see any real similarities other than pic rails all over?.

I don’t get it? I also thought, oh poop, Mike is going to make this fire bigger! 🤔 haha, bam! Just like that.
 
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Since he will not get to much in details about the how the smooth twist X-barrels are designed, it is hard for us to know what exactly he stated they tried to copy. Regarding the deltawolf, it looks similiar to a impact, but since it is a eletronic gun, I would believe it is quiet different inside. If we look further back, we may say FX and other brands did copy edgun. As far as I know he was among the first making a bullpup. It is almost like cars, some will look very similiar across different manufacturers, but they all will be different inside.
 
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Not trying to start anything but I went back and watched the vid again. Matt did not say a word about the ART barrel being a copy. He said the Delta Wolf was trying to copy. Something I have seen many here say.
Click to expand...

Look at approx 29:30. Not trying to start anything but he certainly did say that Daystate was trying to copy FX with their ART barrel.

When talking about the ART barrel and why he’s not discussing it, he gives three reasons:

“Third reason is that it’s very very clear that Daystate has just tried to copy what FX has done to try and get the same performance and I don’t support companies that copy other companies…”

After that and at the end of that sentence he mentions the Delta Wolf. “Trying to be an Impact”. So he flat out says Daystate is trying to copy FX with the ART barrel and he also says the Delta Wolf is a copy of the Impact. I can understand his motivation since he is an FX employee being paid by FX to say this sort of thing. It’s just a shame he couldn’t make a good informative video without bashing another company.
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I just watched the video and came to the forum to see if anyone was talking about this.

I’ve always liked Matt and trusted his opinions, but this comment really turned me off and made me wonder if he’s starting to get corrupted by money.

It’s my understanding that poly barrels have been around for a long while and the Impact itself is a copy of an AR-15… not to mention some of the other products that FX has “copied” and improved on over the years. It was very hypocritical to say that he’ll never touch the Delta Wolf because it’s a copy. There’s only so many ways to make a tactical bullpup rifle.

When FX eventually releases their hammerless design will he have to eat his words? 🤔
 
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