Empirical evidence of groups.

Jump to latest Follow Reply
C

Cliff_Allen

Member
Jul 14, 2015
625
35
maine, United States
I see a lot of us that enjoy target shooting and sharing the results here on the forums, to demonstrate how well our gun is shooting. However, I think a lot of people take these groups with a grain of salt and don't necessarily believe the results to be true.

How many of you believe the groups you see posted here on the forum as being potentially manipulated?

I'm only asking because I would like to hear opinions from forum members about the best way to post groups that would be believable beyond a doubt. Do you only trust video you see of groups being shot? Or do you still think the video's are easily manipulated and still can't be trusted? For example, I made a video a while ago of me shooting a 33 shot group at 51 yards that just about fit under a dime but I'm not sure everyone who watches it doesn't say "well there is a cut scene where he could have manipulated the data" etc. etc. What about Ted's groups on video, or anyone else for that matter?

I for one would like to be able to post groups that everyone can believe to be true and not just write me off as an FX fanboy or whatever. Thoughts? Is it even possible to post groups in a way that would be believable beyond a shadow of a doubt? 
 
I think more than the potential doctoring of the results of a group the distance is exaggerated. I will say Ted for one though is a beast, I mean he won the Extreme Benchrest and when I watched his video of how he practiced leading up to the event I have no doubt that all of his stuff is authentic. He really understands the mechanics and practices tirelessly. So....when there are 30 other people claiming similar results, I must admit my cynical side thinks of the old fisherman story who was alone when he caught the biggest Pink tuna :). I tend to believe others like Baxter Wilson (he at times has people with him), Rick Eustler, Paul, and a few others but who knows, maybe everyone is putting up such great groups due to advancement in the technologies?
 
Upvote 0
I think the only way to be 100% sure would be to be there in person lol. However I feel like if you want to believe it or not that's your choice I know the truth about mine and im not going to post something and lie about it and I expect others to do the same. That being said im sure people do that and if that's so then oh well truly won't bother me any nor will it bother me if someone doesn't believe my groups to be true. Just my 2¢
 
Upvote 0
"Olevey"I think more than the potential doctoring of the results of a group the distance is exaggerated. I will say Ted for one though is a beast, I mean he won the Extreme Benchrest and when I watched his video of how he practiced leading up to the event I have no doubt that all of his stuff is authentic. He really understands the mechanics and practices tirelessly. So....when there are 30 other people claiming similar results, I must admit my cynical side thinks of the old fisherman story who was alone when he caught the biggest Pink tuna :). I tend to believe others like Baxter Wilson (he at times has people with him), Rick Eustler, Paul, and a few others but who knows, maybe everyone is putting up such great groups due to advancement in the technologies?
Click to expand...
That is one of the things that I have admittedly skeptical about, people occasionally exaggerating the distance. That specifically is why I tried so hard to get a shot through the ranger finder on camera when recording the group I shot. I'm also with you in that I do tend to believe the more prominent, public members, Ted, Baxter, etc.
 
Upvote 0
My first reaction is usually to not believe anything anyone tells me about anything (I was born cynical... what ya gonna do!). 

With groups, I think a lot of people are very selective about which group they pick. They show you the 1/2" group at 50 to show what their gun is capable of but if they claim to do that every time... my brain has a built in anti-tamper device that won't allow me to believe it. 


It's the same for people who claim to make perfect hunting shots every time with instant kill zone head shots. I've never once believed people who claim stuff like that. If they tell me they do it with a springer then I have them arrested for fraud. 

As with most things, I like to look at the motivation first. People who are trying to sell something or people who just got a new air rifle are most likely to lie or exaggerate imo. 

Being generous, you could assume that some people guess the range wrong if they don't have a range finder. When you first get a range finder, you realize pretty quickly that 50 and 100 yards is further than you think.

when I first got my range finder, I found that my 50 yard target was actually 43 and my 100 yard target was 117 so I was way off.
 
Upvote 0
Oh and don't forget to consider the air gun being used.

There are a lot more people claiming to make consistent 1/2" 50 yard groups with Benjamin Marauders and AT44's than there are people who are really getting those results. 

I am fairly sure of this because I found both of them to be very hold sensative due to the less robust build quality. There is no tuning that out without replacing the parts that make it a Marauder or AT44. They just aren't rigid.

Somebody somewhere is now tempted to jump in to defend their gun and post a pick of their best group. While I admire the spirit in some small way, there is nothing that could be said to convince me it's a consistent occurrence, so don't do it for my benefit.
 
Upvote 0
"zebra"
With groups, I think a lot of people are very selective about which group they pick. They show you the 1/2" group at 50 to show what their gun is capable of but if they claim to do that every time... my brain has a built in anti-tamper device that won't allow me to believe it. 

Click to expand...
Zebra, yes, that's another thing that bugs me......cherry picked groups. I can throw a rock at a piece of paper 500 times and somewhere in there 5 of them will hit the same spot lol. I'd really like to see the standard raised to 10 shot groups like Ted says. That is pretty much all I shoot these days is 10 shot groups or more. 
 
Upvote 0
I think a good way to get an idea if a specific poster here is pulling a fast one or not is look at all of the groups/targets they post. If the only thing they post if sub MOA groups and 250 cards then they are likely at the very least not giving us the whole picture. No one shots a 25m 250 every single time they shot just as no one shots a sub MOA 100m group every time they shot. So if they post their 3" 100m groups right along with their 1/2" 100M groups and their 234 cards along with their 250 cards, they are likely telling the truth.
 
Upvote 0
"Cliff_Allen"
"zebra"
With groups, I think a lot of people are very selective about which group they pick. They show you the 1/2" group at 50 to show what their gun is capable of but if they claim to do that every time... my brain has a built in anti-tamper device that won't allow me to believe it. 

Click to expand...
Zebra, yes, that's another thing that bugs me......cherry picked groups. I can throw a rock at a piece of paper 500 times and somewhere in there 5 of them will hit the same spot lol. I'd really like to see the standard raised to 10 shot groups like Ted says. That is pretty much all I shoot these days is 10 shot groups or more.
Click to expand...
Personally I don't like 10 shot groups, and am disliking any groups anymore for testing. I feel I get a better idea of whatever I'm testing by shooting 5 or 10 separate bulls. I have a clean sight picture for every shot and I can see exactly where every shot lands. When I shot a group unless I intentionally change my scope clicks I lose my sight picture a few shots into it and can not see where every impact was. Yes there is statically value in using groups, but if I'm testing a velocity change or a pellet change practically speaking I feel like I get better information from shooting single bulls 5-10 times than a group or for that matter shooting 25-75 bulls and comparing results.
 
Upvote 0
I have to agree with @Percula since I think single shots on each bulleye tells you more than a big hole after shooting 10-30 shots in one spot. I use a 300ft survey tape to set up my targets on my range.(and it lets me test my range finder for hunting) I guess if I wanted to post a "silly target" ie not a real world target I would shoot one with one of my CZs in .17 or .22. I like to believe shooters that post how great their guns shoot at 50 yards, but a half inch circle is a nice shot with any rifle. Just think you could kill a bear with a air gun if you could make two shots that good? It would be blind after those two shots and you could walk up with your bowie knife and stab it. ;)

Either way you guys keep posting those really great targets (real or not) and it gives me something to try and match. And I just like to see what others are doing.
 
Upvote 0
I've thought on this subject before and finally come to the conclusion that I don't care. If someone wants to cheat, they are going to cheat. In this case the only person who looses is the clown who is trying to make him/her self look better. I don't think there are many people that stupid to be honest.

It is much more likely that the shooter who posts the occasional MOA 100 yard group is just really proud of that group. He/she may or may not realize that it is a one in a hundred thing. It is unlikely they are trying to falsify their data.

That is why Bob did the dimes challenge over on the other forum and why I did the ten dimes challenge a couple years ago:
http://www.oldspooks.com/agstuff/Ten-dimes-challenge.pdf

Nobody has ever done it with a springer but if anyone can it's Joe.
 
Upvote 0
 don't some groups at 50 yards that I cant belive my self. but I did them and never posted them.
I will put them on my wall some day because I know I did them and are proud of them.
. but no almost all groups I fire are never than good.
takes a lot of evert to be good and no one can be 100 % all the time.

2. 5 mm ctc at 50 yards out doors with my air wolf .177 5 shot groups. I don't it several times

to be honest most groups are never that small
 
Upvote 0
"oldspook"I've thought on this subject before and finally come to the conclusion that I don't care. If someone wants to cheat, they are going to cheat. In this case the only person who looses is the clown who is trying to make him/her self look better. I don't think there are many people that stupid to be honest.

It is much more likely that the shooter who posts the occasional MOA 100 yard group is just really proud of that group. He/she may or may not realize that it is a one in a hundred thing. It is unlikely they are trying to falsify their data.

That is why Bob did the dimes challenge over on the other forum and why I did the ten dimes challenge a couple years ago:
http://www.oldspooks.com/agstuff/Ten-dimes-challenge.pdf

Nobody has ever done it with a springer but if anyone can it's Joe.
Click to expand...
I like the idea of the 10 dimes challenge. I don't really shoot springers very much but I suppose it would be fun for someone to accomplish the challenge with a PCP at 50 yards. I might give it a whirl on my day off, weather permitting. 
 
Upvote 0
"Strever"isn't competition the answer ? at least it is for me
i'm 75 years old i feel good shooting benchrest and the match results are always posted

Dick
come and visit me and shoot an official competition in a nice setting :) http://redwoodsairgunclub.com/

Click to expand...


That. Looks. Awesome. I would love to have a venue like that to shoot at. You are one lucky duck. I love the idea of the shooting benches with the cinder blocks. Great set up!!!
 
Upvote 0
A group is a test of the gun's consistency. Trying to hit the bull on multiple targets with one shot each is a test of your skill. Do it against the clock and it's almost good training for small game hunting.

To make it a real and equivalent challenge, some of the targets would have to move every few seconds to make it extra hard to range properly. Oh, and some of them would have to be partially camouflaged against the background and some would have to be hiding from you out of your current line of sight. 

I stsrted a thread on this that split the room a few weeks ago. My contention was that shooting groups was not particularly difficult with a decent gun. The skill is not moving the gun between shots (which a good rest takes care of). 

If you don't care where the first shot goes and all you focus on is making sure not to move the gun for follow up shots, you don't even need to read the wind or range it and these are too of the biggest skills needed to call yourself a good marksman imo. 

Other than testing that my gun is working properly, a group can be good for checking I have a consistent hold but unlike a lot of other people here, I can't seem to feel any sense of personal accomplishment when the group is tight. I feel like the gun deserves the credit.

 
Upvote 0
I had someone doubt some groups posted on you-tube he also said there was no way the distance was 70 yards. Went back out with a 100 yard tape and walked the 70 yards on video. Did this a couple of times to prove the distance and groups.

If someone doesn't believe the distance or groups I post now too bad. I can look back anytime to see the guns I owned and their accuracy. Why people would post BS groups or distances is beyond me. If someone is selling a gun and lies the buyer is going to be pissed and leave negative feedback.

I have seen Tony at Talon Tunes post BS photos of groups and distances to sell a gun. In the thread below he states he shot dime groups at 55 yards in swirling winds with a 177 shooting 18 fpe. Posted photos. http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=35390

I have owned 2 extremely accurate 177 crickets. They both took hundreds of shots before capable of groups like Anthony posted. In swirling winds there is no way anyone is shooting 2 sub dime groups so I called BS on TAG. My posts were deleted and I was asked to stop. A couple of old timers posted I should stop being disrespectful.. After all Tony owns the forum where BS is called out. My guess is Anthony gets a pass and can post BS pics of groups because its business.

Rant over. You-tube video where I walk the 70 yards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mcoulter
Upvote 0
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Resources
Menu