I have recently started using the 6-24×50 Element Helix ffp scope , seem like I have to have my eye in the perfect position to have a full field of view. No wiggle room. I don't like this...... Is this normal for an Element scope ?
Element Helix
- Thread starter K80
- Start date
Hey on the bright side, at least every time you shoot you know you are in the exact same position so one less thing to worry about.
Upvote 0
Some like a small eye boxes and some don't. I like that it forces me to place my head the same way every time to get off a good shot. Also depends on what magnification you're using your scope, I get a little more leeway at lower power with my scope (Athlon G1 Helos).
Upvote 0
I have the same scope, I noticed the same thing when I first got it, after shooting it a few times I did not seem to have that issue. It might be that now I subconsciously line up with the eyepiece. At first I thought it was just because of my glasses. For me it was more critical to get the scope positioned for the correct eye relief, I think this made the biggest difference for me.
Upvote 0
Everything on a scope is a compromise and feature. All the precision long range scopes have tight eye box and all the hunting scopes have large eye box. It depends on your use case but tighter eye box forces you to have correct eye alignment so even the parallax is off you will like to hit your target. All the hunting scopes have large eye box because of fast target acquisition and when shooting a deer at 100 yards you got a target of small dinner plate so if the parallax is off it’s not big deal.
for most airgun use cases the targets are pretty small so a tight eye box can be consider a feature. The down side of tight eye box is hard to get behind unless you have adjustable cheek piece but most do not just like PB hunting rifles….another reason for large eye box. Speed or accuracy, you need to pick one.
for most airgun use cases the targets are pretty small so a tight eye box can be consider a feature. The down side of tight eye box is hard to get behind unless you have adjustable cheek piece but most do not just like PB hunting rifles….another reason for large eye box. Speed or accuracy, you need to pick one.
Upvote 0
Qball,
this eye box thing is something rarely described with clarity — I wished they had numbers to measure the eye box and add that to the scope specs!!
For me there's plenty to learn in aigunning and scopes, so help me out — how would I recognize a "hunting scope" from a "long range scope"?
Thanks,
Matthias
Upvote 0
Hey Matthias: you are correct that there is no clear definition and now and days most scopes try to do both but lean towards one way or the other.
Here is my take/opinion on it which isn't worth much:
Hunting scope: generally referred to scopes designed for hunting with Power Burners, airgun is too small of a market compare to PB. Features valued by hunters generally is speed, speed means faster to your eye, target acquisition and the shot. To achieve that most hunting scopes have fixed parallax. To shoot faster you also need simpler reticles and usually that means simple crosshair or at most BCD hashes. Most hunts are well under 100 yards or much closer if you are in the stand or blind. Most hunting rifles value simplicity and ruggedness so no adjustable cheek piece so a very forgiving eye box is needed for fast shouldering or to eye. Also very wide field of view and long/wide depth of field, this is for fast target acquisition. Keep in mind this will affect the accuracy but when your target is size of dinner plate at 30 yards a little parallax error is insignificant. When dinner and/or pride pops into view you need to take that shot fast!
Target scope: name of the game is precision, precision and precision so no need for big and forgiving eye box because you will have adjustable cheek piece and you want up most precision when it comes to eye alignment. You got all the time in the world because targets don't got legs and usually stays quite still and you know where they are at so you have all day to find it in the scope, adjust parallax, make sure parallax is correct by moving your eyes, check eye alignment again, control your breathing, adjust your grip, adjust your hold, adjust your shouldering, adjust your bipod, check your cant..........you get the idea! One can and will spend many many minutes before a single shot.
So at the end of the day you have 2 very different end goals: speed or precision. You can decide based on your use case what compromises you are willing to make on which feature to achieve your goal. It's a very complicated discussion but if you are clear on what you really want to do with your scope then it's fairly easy to pick and choose the features that matters to your use case. Examples are how far, how big/small are the targets, how fast you need to acquire the target, how fast you need to shoot, how big of an area you need to scan, do you have adjustable cheek piece, how quick you can shoulder your gun, hold over or click turrets ..... you basically need to look at every single feature and make a decision based on what you want to use it for. Any given scope can be quite good at one thing and horrible at another.
Hope I didn't add to the confusion and there really isn't a thing as airgun scopes, they don't exist except for maybe springer. We just happen to be shooting at smaller targets and relatively long distance (amount of hold over or turret clicks).
Upvote 0
Qball,
that was an excellent explanation, Thank you!
•Hurried shots vs. non-hurried shots, and
•Small targets vs. large targets (kill zones or bulls' eyes — the farther they are away the smaller they are).
Yeah, that sums up the different shooting scenarios pretty well.
And like you say, we airgunners are somehow caught in the middle....!
•Because our killzones are very small.
•And even though our shots are all "for powder burners very close, i.e., under 100 yards" — the pellet drop and the wind drift require large POA corrections (the powder burners' PBR is 100y long, our's is maybe 20 or 30y short...).
So, yeah, I'm always looking for scopes that somehow do it all...!
Matthias
that was an excellent explanation, Thank you!
•Hurried shots vs. non-hurried shots, and
•Small targets vs. large targets (kill zones or bulls' eyes — the farther they are away the smaller they are).
Yeah, that sums up the different shooting scenarios pretty well.
And like you say, we airgunners are somehow caught in the middle....!
•Because our killzones are very small.
•And even though our shots are all "for powder burners very close, i.e., under 100 yards" — the pellet drop and the wind drift require large POA corrections (the powder burners' PBR is 100y long, our's is maybe 20 or 30y short...).
So, yeah, I'm always looking for scopes that somehow do it all...!
Matthias
Upvote 0
And like you say, we airgunners are somehow caught in the middle....!
•Because our killzones are very small.
•And even though our shots are all "for powder burners very close, i.e., under 100 yards" — the pellet drop and the wind drift require large POA corrections (the powder burners' PBR is 100y long, our's is maybe 20 or 30y short...).
So, yeah, I'm always looking for scopes that somehow do it all...!
Matthias
Exactly!!! Anything after 30-40 yards with airgun we are basically getting into PB's longer distance target range in terms of how small our targets usually are and environmental affects! When shooting 100-200 yards we are already into the ELR range for PB.
Example: 145 grain 6.5 creedmoor ELD flying at 2550 FPS shooting at 1000 meters or 1100 yards will have wind drift of 1.2 mils with left hand 5mph wind. While shooting 23 grain slugs @900FPS at 110 yards will have 1 mils of wind drift. It's almost a factor of 10:1 and 1000 yards is very far for 99% of PB shooters. 99% of hunt will NOT need any hold over or under, most hunting rifles has maximum point bland range out to 300 yards and 99% of shots are well under 100 yards.
I tried the do it all scope like Vortex diamondback tactical and while the glass is descent but turrets are a bit off and most difficult part is the eye box is very forgiving, thanks to a popular feature I was having all sorts of accuracy issues thanks to parallax error. I got Helix and it forced me to get into better eye alignment and I was immediately shooting sub MOA groups at 100 yards, I was popping birds well pass 100 yards even. This help me realize the importance of good eye alignment and adjustable cheek piece. Fortunately we don't just have 1 gun that does it all so for closer guns I even go as far as fixed parallax LPVO and for longer distance guns I go straight to ELR style target scopes. Thanks to airgun being so quiet you have extra time and second shot chance so you can take your time and not rush a 100 yard shot. Do it all scopes most of the time really is just bad at everything scope! LOL
Upvote 0