Dual regulators and power plenum and pellet speed deviations

[BlackbirdPS]

Hello Fellow Airgunners,

While looking at the FX Maverick, one stand out feature is the two regulators. The first reg doing the big reduction in pressure, leaving the second reg's pressure differential much reduced, a lighter work load that results in very high shot to shot pellet speed consistency. 

Question: For the same result on other airguns, could we configure two regulators in line and separate them with a short power plenum?

km

 

[Centercut]

You could do that now if you wanted to. Install a Huma bottle reg onto an Altaros plenum to the normal bottle inlet to the gun.

I said you COULD do it, but what would your reasoning be? Assuming with proper tuning you can get an ES of 10 FPS or less, I question if that isn’t already “good enough”?

So let’s do a hypothetical. One gun that shoots .22 RD Monsters at 950 FPS, and has an ES of 10 across a 40 shot string And then same gun with two regs that shoot the same pellets at the same speed, but with an ES of 5 FPS. So one has a 5 FPS better ES than the other.

Lets look at what that means at 100 yards. So with a 10 FPS differential from low to high there is a 0.2 MOA vertical spread With the 5 FPS differential, there is a 0.1 MOA vertical spread. So worst case, the two reg would give a 0.1 MOA (0.1 inch) better vertical spread and that is worst case, the actual differential would be much less than 0.1 inch... I’m not sure about you, but less than 1/2 of a .22 pellet diameter is pretty much inconsequential Perhaps it may make a 1/4 inch difference at 250 yards? Anyone out there shooting 1/4 inch groups at 250 yards?

 

[hussn32]

I just have a really good feeling the fx impact mk3 will have dual regulators on it and maybe a few other surprises

 

[Odoyle]

The dual regs are probably a NO or LESS reg creep preventative measure along with not making the primary reg act stupid sometimes when filling the gun to over 3000psi.

AND allow safer primary reg adjustments with less chance of leak without full pressure of air.

 

[Odoyle]

Matter of fact I stopped a leak just by adding an inline reg.

 

[BlackbirdPS]

Thanks for your reasoned good reply. I didn't realize the gains were so small. 

If so, why would fx be going down this road?

 

[Odoyle]

Matter of fact I stopped a leak just by adding am inline reg.

I would say it's pure geniuous. Like adding an additional faucet valve inline to your kitchen faucet that's prone to leak. The valve at the tap is no longer under full pressure. No more drippy faucet.

 

[Kurt110]

The AMP reg on my 3 month old Impact has been pretty good. At 125 bar reg pressure and the HST set three turns out, I found a spot where it consistently delivers an ES of 7-8 FPS with H&N 27gr slugs with a speed of 960fps. The last three days, first shot registered exactly 958fps, so now creep and it’s being doing that for over 4000 shots. 
My friend’s Impact is the same, also a .22 PP. 
If the reg starts leaking, I will have it fixed. If it had to leak again I would install a Huma. But then again, my Crown’s AMP reg has been bulletproof for over 2years and over 5000 shots, no creep and single digit ES using AA 16gr pellets. 

I was chatting with top 25m bench rest shooters and they had tried dual regs but ultimately did not see the improvements that made it worth the effort. 

I use my Impact to hunt and shoot steel gongs at ridiculously far distances for an air rifle, and in the current configuration, it delivers. I often sit there in utter amazement and celebrate the fact that air rifles have come this far and so suddenly. 

On my wishlist for the MK3 is a trigger equal to my Crown, carbon fiber liner sleeve, dual transfer port and a shroud that tensions the barrel. Power wise, not keen to shoot the slugs much faster as already I have to be super careful where the slugs end up. And they MUST NOT remove the valve adjuster. It’s the primary feature I use to get slugs to shoot sub MOA. 

 

[Centercut]

Thanks for your reasoned good reply. I didn't realize the gains were so small. 

If so, why would fx be going down this road?

Marketing genius. Look at all the paid fanboy reviews talking about how wonderful dual regs are. And look at how easily lots of shooters are swallowing the hype. It seems like a good gun at a fair price, but the dual reg benefits are miniscule at best.

Tell you what, let’s see how many of the top FX shooters use the Maverick in place of their Impact in competition if dual regs are so beneficial...

 

[DeadOnShot]

The reason for a 2 stage regulator is a smaller regulated PSI tolerance. Better oxy/acetelene torches have used 2 stage regulators for better pressure regulation for years now.

I personally have seen first hand the benefits or using 2 stage pressure regulators for high pressures.

Ever wonder what caused those (not human inflicted) vertical fliers or a weird chronograph reading that people just normally throw out as a freak?

 

[Keyman62421]

I think the Maverick will shoot with the Impact.mine has shot with my Impact and carries better.

 

[Centercut]

I think the Maverick will shoot with the Impact.mine has shot with my Impact and carries better.

I agree but that’s not what the hype is saying. What all the paid fanboy reviews are saying is that It gives BETTER results than a single reg gun, I.e., the Impact. So what I said was if that is true, let’s see how many sponsored FX shooters shift to the Maverick in Competition. That would be Walking the Walk vice just Talking the Talk...

 

[Chuck-in-Ohio]

I think the Maverick will shoot with the Impact.mine has shot with my Impact and carries better.

I agree but that’s not what the hype is saying. What all the paid fanboy reviews are saying is that It gives BETTER results than a single reg gun, I.e., the Impact. So what I said was if that is true, let’s see how many sponsored FX shooters shift to the Maverick in Competition. That would be Walking the Walk vice just Talking the Talk...

That is a valid point, thanks for keeping it real.



I believe that we are at least 6 months or more from being able to determine if the Maverick is simply as good as, or so much better than the Impact, as it is currently being touted.

 

[Kurt110]

It is one thing to shoot pellets as well as the Impact. When it comes to slugs, and a range of different ones, and at extreme distances, I’m keen to see how it compares. 

 

[luisj]

Somos tan iparciales 

Hace unas semanas se comentaba lo buena y excelente que una carabina que todavía no ha salido y tardará unos meses en que salga al mercado (DELTA WOLF)

Nada negativo, todo positivo

Ahora dudas sobre si funciona o no lo nuevo de otra marca (FX MAVERICK)

Los que hablan bien de FX estan pagados con dinero o especias 

Los que hablan bien de DAYSTATE lo hacen gratis?

Sin animo de ofender

 

[balver]

Somos tan iparciales 

Hace unas semanas se comentaba lo buena y excelente que una carabina que todavía no ha salido y tardará unos meses en que salga al mercado (DELTA WOLF)

Nada negativo, todo positivo

Ahora dudas sobre si funciona o no lo nuevo de otra marca (FX MAVERICK)

Los que hablan bien de FX estan pagados con dinero o especias 

Los que hablan bien de DAYSTATE lo hacen gratis?

Sin animo de ofender






We are so iparcial

A few weeks ago it was commented how good and excellent a carbine that has not yet come out and will take a few months to hit the market (DELTA WOLF)

Nothing negative, all positive

Now you doubt whether the new from another brand works or not (FX MAVERICK)

Those who speak well of FX are paid with money or spices

Those who speak well of DAYSTATE do it for free?

No offense

Pardon the Google translation, but Luis, I agree with you 100%!

 

[Glem.Chally]

Somos tan iparciales 

Hace unas semanas se comentaba lo buena y excelente que una carabina que todavía no ha salido y tardará unos meses en que salga al mercado (DELTA WOLF)

Nada negativo, todo positivo

Ahora dudas sobre si funciona o no lo nuevo de otra marca (FX MAVERICK)

Los que hablan bien de FX estan pagados con dinero o especias 

Los que hablan bien de DAYSTATE lo hacen gratis?

Sin animo de ofender






We are so iparcial

A few weeks ago it was commented how good and excellent a carbine that has not yet come out and will take a few months to hit the market (DELTA WOLF)

Nothing negative, all positive

Now you doubt whether the new from another brand works or not (FX MAVERICK)

Those who speak well of FX are paid with money or spices

Those who speak well of DAYSTATE do it for free?

No offense

Pardon the Google translation, but Luis, I agree with you 100%!

 

[Dairyboy]

I'm with Mike here on this one. I think that FX is pushing this whole dual regulator thing as such a huge improvement over just a single. Makes it so much easier on the 2nd reg. While that's true I can see that the reg shouldn't have an issue with those kinds of pressure swings. Look at Cricket regs for example or Vulcan regs. There known as some of the best regs out there period. They don't have problems with pressure changes. Many other regs don't either. I feel like FX could have designed a better reg that could handle the pressure changes like many others out there but now are selling the hype of "2 regs equal more better". Again I think the Maverick is a cool gun on price point and simpler in ways than the Impact, but added complications with 2 regs doesn't make sense to me. 

 

[Macros]

I think the dual reg idea is sound. If the second reg has to deal with a more constant pressure, then it's deviation from set pressure will be less. Not by much, but at this stage we're dealing with fractions of a millimeter in terms of accuracy improvements and 1 or 2 fps differences in extreme spread, most of the gains of which will be swallowed up by the shooters errors. Doesn't mean they aren't worth it though. Even if it helps get rid of one low shot or flyer in a competitive shoot, it could make 'the difference'.

This maverick dual reg idea is in essence no different to the dual mechanical/electronic regulation of the delta wolf - it's just less ambitious without inbuilt chronys and touch screens. The point of that huma in the delta is exactly the same - allow the electronic regulation to deal with a much tinier pressure range and improve consistency by a tiny amount. Without it, it's basically a bullpup version of a 10year old Airwolf MVT.

It was said that the proof would be in how many shoot mavericks in competition in the next year or so because of the dual reg. I don't know how many would switch to it, but I'm pretty sure there will be a significant number of the various guns already being used that have been retrofitted with double regs in response, especially given how easy it is to do on many rifles.

 

[Chuck-in-Ohio]

I think the dual reg idea is sound. If the second reg has to deal with a more constant pressure, then it's deviation from set pressure will be less. Not by much, but at this stage we're dealing with fractions of a millimeter in terms of accuracy improvements and 1 or 2 fps differences in extreme spread, most of the gains of which will be swallowed up by the shooters errors. Doesn't mean they aren't worth it though. Even if it helps get rid of one low shot or flyer in a competitive shoot, it could make 'the difference'.

This maverick dual reg idea is in essence no different to the dual mechanical/electronic regulation of the delta wolf - it's just less ambitious without inbuilt chronys and touch screens. The point of that huma in the delta is exactly the same - allow the electronic regulation to deal with a much tinier pressure range and improve consistency by a tiny amount. Without it, it's basically a bullpup version of a 10year old Airwolf MVT.

It was said that the proof would be in how many shoot mavericks in competition in the next year or so because of the dual reg. I don't know how many would switch to it, but I'm pretty sure there will be a significant number of the various guns already being used that have been retrofitted with double regs in response, especially given how easy it is to do on many rifles.

Well put, and a well thought out view.



Put into the context of competition as stated above, it does make sense that every little bit you can gain should result in improved scores. The only fly in the ointment will be how the FX version of the dual reg set up compares to the Delta Wolf when we actually see them in direct comparison and contrast to each other.