Does a larger plenum on your regulator really make a difference?

The answer to this question in short is this- unequivocally, undeniably, resoundingly YES! Yes it does!

So I did an experiment over the weekend. I have a customized .25 AF Condor. It's a slug shooting beast of a gun. But AF rifles aren't known for their complexity in design. They are mechanically simple compared to FX's, or Daystate's, or Edguns, etc..... The utilize an inline valve assembly with a hammer weight propelled by a spring that opens a valve upon impact. They are designed for power, NOT efficiency. Well, there are several manufacturers out there who designed inline regulators for the AF platform. There's PCP Tunes, Altros, and the cheap Chinese manufacturers. The rifles are true PCP's, but they don't have a "bull pup" design. Thus they have an extremely long profile. So in order to add a regulator in the mix, it increases an already long rifle to an even longer rifle. These regulator manufacturers know this, so the plenum space on the regulators is relatively small. I own several of the PCP Tunes regs (which in my opinion have the best tolerance and manufacturing design). I have the V1, the V2, the V3, and the Texan regulator. I don't even own the Texan rifle, but the Reg can be used on smaller caliber Condors and provide extreme power and consistency in velocities. I'm going to throw it on one day....

However, my gun is currently running the V3 regulator. The V3 has 2x's the plenum space as the V1 and the V2. But the plenum space is still limited. They increased the inner volume of the regulator by expanding the circumference slightly. They did not increase it's volume by lengthening it. So the reg goes between the valve assembly and the bottle (as all regs do). And the reg can be set for whatever reg pressure you desire, up to 250 BAR with the ability to have 300 BAR in the bottle. But for this experiment, I'm glad I have the AF Condor platform. It's so mechanically simple that it simplifies the experiment. It's either going to work or it's not. 

When you get the PCP Tunes regulator, it has 2 gauges on it. One for the bottle, and one for the plenum pressure. So there's no need to keep the stock gauges on the collar portion of the valve assembly. I just used a 1/8" NPT plug with Megatape to fill that recession. But that location also provides access to the regulated side of the configuration since the pressure gauge is activated from the hole at the bottom that runs perpendicular to the air flow. When components are under extreme pressure, directional air flow is irrelevant. The entire space has equal pressure, and it will release evenly as well. 

So..... This was my idea. I was going to make my own power plenum and see if the theory would prove to be right. So I shot over to IMS metals, and purchased a 3/16" thick, round steel end cap. I also purchased a mild steel 1/8 NPT bolt. I cut a round tab out od a 3/16" piece of steel plate and drilled a hole through the middle of it to accommodate the bolt without impeding the threads. The bolt was pushed through the hole, and TIG welded on the inside. I then put the end cap with bolt attached onto the end cap, and TIG welded it shut. It's crude, but VERY strong, and VERY capable of handling the pressure that will be in the plenum.

Here are the pictures:

Plenum-1.1620757371.jpg


Plenum-2.1620757395.jpg


I realize the hole isn't centered in the middle of the bolt. This is because I improvised with a shotty jig on the drill press instead of doing it by hand. However, it's irrelevant to the functionality of the plenum because that will be screwed into the female threaded collar portion of the valve assembly, which reinforces the walls of the hollow bolt.

Here it is mounted on the regulator. I use a stubby bottle when playing with reg settings to conserve air.

Plenum-3.1620757619.jpg


Reg pressure set at 180 BAR

Plenum-5.1620757695.jpg


Bottle pressure set at 230 BAR

Plenum-4.1620757720.jpg


Mounted on the rifle. Notice the chronograph in the background.

Plenum-6.1620757771.jpg


And here are the results of my testing:

Plenum-7.1620757967.jpg


Notice that I got an increase of 19fps velocity over the high velocities on each string. I also got a 62% reduction in the extreme spread with the new plenum. Lastly, I got 1 extra shot with the same fill level before the reg dropped off. Again, I use a buddy bottle when I do tests like this. The bottle I normally use has twice the capacity, which exponentially increases the number of shots. So if I could get 9 regulated shots with the buddy bottle, I should get 25 or 26 with the regular carbon fiber bottle. I also usually put 250-260 BAR in the larger bottle.

So if you're ever wondering if a larger plenum (power plenum) really does make a difference, now you have proof. It really does. It creates more power with identical settings. I went from an average velocity of 851.75 fps to 876 fps (+24.25 fps), with a power increase of average 67.68 fpe to 71.58 fpe (+4 fpe).

The V3 reg I normally use with my carbon fiber bottle is set at 210 BAR. I'm pushing the 38gr .254 AVS slugs at 965 fps with those settings. Slugs are particular though. Those slugs may not like being shot faster than that. So I have 2 options with this. Either way, the power plenum will be added to the configuration. I think I'm going to make another one. But I can add the plenum and see how much faster the slugs shoot, and if they still shoot accurate (which will be a feat in and of itself, because they are like laser beams). Or if they are less accurate at the higher velocities, then I will back off the regulator and tune it down to say 200 BAR. Either way, the efficiency and lessening of an extreme spread will follow. So it's a win-win in my book.
 
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Interesting. I've had a PCPTunes V1 in use on my Condor (as well as an Altaros on another) for a long time now. I have 3600psi CF bottles on both (basically stock LOP even with the added regulator using those bottles) so I need to order their upgraded V3 regulator to take advantage of both the higher input pressure it can take as well as the higher regulated pressure possible. I like their products and service has always been good for me.
 
Adding additional plenum space has helped every gun I have done it to. Some more than others depending on how deficient they were to begin with. Except for my Taipan .22 Standard. It did nothing. Absolutely nothing. I’m still at the exact same settings before I added it. And I’m shooting slugs out of it so I’m leaning on it more than I did with pellets. 
 
Your hole threw the male threaded bolt is not even centered and looks mighty close to thread root (right side as viewed ).... NO THANK YOU !!!!

Violent release of HPA that close to my head i don't think so !



AS to increases in Plenum volume helping power as well a lower ES value ... Absolutely.


You obviously missed the section of my write up where I explained that, and you obviously didn't look how the threads insert into the collar of the valve assembly, and how the collar itself stabilizes the structural integrity of the bolt itself. I clearly explained that's why I'm not worried about it. LOL. It's simple mechanics and physics.
 
I was about to comment that how an earth you feel safe on using any pcp tunes regs after catastrophic failure of texan reg due massive design flaws... That nearly killed that poor man.. But then I saw that.. Il just leave it here and pray that you did atleast hydrotest it to 500+bars..


First of all..... No one almost died from the Texan regulator failure. It didn't fail right next to his face. Paul from PCP tunes has sold thousands of those regulators, and only ONE has supposedly failed. That leaves to question whether the user was following proper protocol. Or perhaps the regulator was damaged in shipping. It's milled from bar stock aluminum. Maybe it was dropped at some point under pressure. As soon as the reg failed, Paul went back to the drawing board and made a V2 of the Texan regulator, with thicker sidewalls to prevent that from ever happening again.

After that reg failed, a popular poster on here almost single-handedly destroyed Paul's business. Interesting enough, Paul gave this person a FREE Texan regulator to test. After the supposed catastrophic failure, the aforementioned poster railed on Paul and warned everyone not to buy the regulator, which obviously made people leery to buy anything from them. Interestingly enough however, this person never returned the free Texan regulator he got from Paul.

As far as hydrotest goes, It's unnecessary. That little plenum can handle more pressure that your carbon fiber dive tank. The filler wire I used for the TIG weld has a shear strength of 85,000psi. And the steel is 3/16" thick. So I doubt that the 2800 psi I have in it is going to do anything. I'm not a "fly by the seat of your pants" person. I understand metallurgy and welding. It's a passion of mine. That plenum is completely safe. 
 
Not talking an OUTWARD rupture at thread root and your just saying it is supported by the collar it screws into is not going to save you from longitudinal thread shear.

ANY sharp corner is a weak spot and especially within threads that are being PULLED APART same as if you were to tighten said screw in a female threaded hole and excessively tightening it.



We will agree to disagree and with that shared caring for your safety I'm done. Be safe out there !!



Scott S
 
Interesting. I've had a PCPTunes V1 in use on my Condor (as well as an Altaros on another) for a long time now. I have 3600psi CF bottles on both (basically stock LOP even with the added regulator using those bottles) so I need to order their upgraded V3 regulator to take advantage of both the higher input pressure it can take as well as the higher regulated pressure possible. I like their products and service has always been good for me.


Buy it. It's a GREAT regulator. They use the same belleville washer stack that they use in the Texan regulator. If you've ever pulled their regulators appart, you'll see how beefy the washers are in the Texan model. I noticed significant power gains and lower extreme spreads with it.
 
Not talking an OUTWARD rupture at thread root and your just saying it is supported by the collar it screws into is not going to save you from longitudinal thread shear.

ANY sharp corner is a weak spot and especially within threads that are being PULLED APART same as if you were to tighten said screw in a female threaded hole and excessively tightening it.



We will agree to disagree and with that shared caring for your safety I'm done. Be safe out there !!



Scott S


Well Scott, this first model was simply for proof of concept. So you can know I'm not a fool that just sticks his fingers into his ears, and says "La la la la" to drown out reason, I plan on making another one. The next one will have a little more attention to detail on it. I don't plan on making the hole through the thread as large. It's not necessary. And I plan on making sure it's nice and centered. So I her you bro...... No worries.
 
The larger plenums do work. I have a Gen1 Impact that required 145 bar to shoot the 34 grain JSB's at 830fps. That was about all the gun had to offer. I installed an FX Power Plenum, and was able to drop the Regulator Pressure to about 110 bar and shoot at 870 fps. I intend to add Dubber's power kit to see if I can reduce the pressure even further. This could be fun.

Now that I've installed the Power Plenum, I'm a firm believer!


 
Not talking an OUTWARD rupture at thread root and your just saying it is supported by the collar it screws into is not going to save you from longitudinal thread shear.

ANY sharp corner is a weak spot and especially within threads that are being PULLED APART same as if you were to tighten said screw in a female threaded hole and excessively tightening it.



We will agree to disagree and with that shared caring for your safety I'm done. Be safe out there !!



Scott S


Well Scott, this first model was simply for proof of concept. So you can know I'm not a fool that just sticks his fingers into his ears, and says "La la la la" to drown out reason, I plan on making another one. The next one will have a little more attention to detail on it. I don't plan on making the hole through the thread as large. It's not necessary. And I plan on making sure it's nice and centered. So I her you bro...... No worries.

Would be a good idea to heed what Scott is saying. We would like to keep you around for awhile. Please be safe.
 
I was about to comment that how an earth you feel safe on using any pcp tunes regs after catastrophic failure of texan reg due massive design flaws... That nearly killed that poor man.. But then I saw that.. Il just leave it here and pray that you did atleast hydrotest it to 500+bars..


First of all..... No one almost died from the Texan regulator failure. It didn't fail right next to his face. Paul from PCP tunes has sold thousands of those regulators, and only ONE has supposedly failed. That leaves to question whether the user was following proper protocol. Or perhaps the regulator was damaged in shipping. It's milled from bar stock aluminum. Maybe it was dropped at some point under pressure. As soon as the reg failed, Paul went back to the drawing board and made a V2 of the Texan regulator, with thicker sidewalls to prevent that from ever happening again.

After that reg failed, a popular poster on here almost single-handedly destroyed Paul's business. Interesting enough, Paul gave this person a FREE Texan regulator to test. After the supposed catastrophic failure, the aforementioned poster railed on Paul and warned everyone not to buy the regulator, which obviously made people leery to buy anything from them. Interestingly enough however, this person never returned the free Texan regulator he got from Paul.

As far as hydrotest goes, It's unnecessary. That little plenum can handle more pressure that your carbon fiber dive tank. The filler wire I used for the TIG weld has a shear strength of 85,000psi. And the steel is 3/16" thick. So I doubt that the 2800 psi I have in it is going to do anything. I'm not a "fly by the seat of your pants" person. I understand metallurgy and welding. It's a passion of mine. That plenum is completely safe.

First of all you should educate your self. No one died cause it went off when he wasnt touching or near that gun would be different case if he were. Second of all it didnt go off due user abuse but due massive design failure that tells 1. One who made it and designed it have zero clue how to design pressure tanks and 2. Should never ever do it again and 3. When we are speaking about deadly high pressure gasses where failure equals explosion like scenario even one is more than enough. End user isnt the one who tests how many fill cycles it lasts and that reg should not even fail at 750bars and it did if I remember correctly at under 200. That regulator had 90degree corners that you should never have in such container and that was the spot where it failed.

Also its pretty damn stupid to think some famous tuber destroyed his reputation he did it by him self by selling deadly products and he should consider him self lucky no one died. Free reg or not no one who understands how dangerous situation that is isnt going to stay quiet when stuff like that happens. Would you be happy if someone send you ticking timebomb at your house for free of charge ofc! I bet not.. 

What comes to your builds I dont really care what you do. Just saying that is dangerous as hell and stay safe. Doing hydrotesting is cheap life insurance but if you dont care you dont... Atleast you have been warned. 
 
I was about to comment that how an earth you feel safe on using any pcp tunes regs after catastrophic failure of texan reg due massive design flaws... That nearly killed that poor man.. But then I saw that.. Il just leave it here and pray that you did atleast hydrotest it to 500+bars..


First of all..... No one almost died from the Texan regulator failure. It didn't fail right next to his face. Paul from PCP tunes has sold thousands of those regulators, and only ONE has supposedly failed. That leaves to question whether the user was following proper protocol. Or perhaps the regulator was damaged in shipping. It's milled from bar stock aluminum. Maybe it was dropped at some point under pressure. As soon as the reg failed, Paul went back to the drawing board and made a V2 of the Texan regulator, with thicker sidewalls to prevent that from ever happening again.

After that reg failed, a popular poster on here almost single-handedly destroyed Paul's business. Interesting enough, Paul gave this person a FREE Texan regulator to test. After the supposed catastrophic failure, the aforementioned poster railed on Paul and warned everyone not to buy the regulator, which obviously made people leery to buy anything from them. Interestingly enough however, this person never returned the free Texan regulator he got from Paul.

As far as hydrotest goes, It's unnecessary. That little plenum can handle more pressure that your carbon fiber dive tank. The filler wire I used for the TIG weld has a shear strength of 85,000psi. And the steel is 3/16" thick. So I doubt that the 2800 psi I have in it is going to do anything. I'm not a "fly by the seat of your pants" person. I understand metallurgy and welding. It's a passion of mine. That plenum is completely safe.

First of all you should educate your self. No one died cause it went off when he wasnt touching or near that gun would be different case if he were. Second of all it didnt go off due user abuse but due massive design failure that tells 1. One who made it and designed it have zero clue how to design pressure tanks and 2. Should never ever do it again and 3. When we are speaking about deadly high pressure gasses where failure equals explosion like scenario even one is more than enough. End user isnt the one who tests how many fill cycles it lasts and that reg should not even fail at 750bars and it did if I remember correctly at under 200. That regulator had 90degree corners that you should never have in such container and that was the spot where it failed.

Also its pretty damn stupid to think some famous tuber destroyed his reputation he did it by him self by selling deadly products and he should consider him self lucky no one died. Free reg or not no one who understands how dangerous situation that is isnt going to stay quiet when stuff like that happens. Would you be happy if someone send you ticking timebomb at your house for free of charge ofc! I bet not.. 

What comes to your builds I dont really care what you do. Just saying that is dangerous as hell and stay safe. Doing hydrotesting is cheap life insurance but if you dont care you dont... Atleast you have been warned.


Please tell me what I need to educate myself on? I spoke on the phone with the poster who "raised the red flag" about the PCP Tunes regulator failure. We had a 1 hour conversation about details. So I can say with confidence I know more about the situation than you do. I also spoke with Paul from PCP Tunes about the failure. There are 2 sides to every story. And Paul tests those regulators to 350 BAR for 24 hours before he sends them out. So to say that the reason the regulator failed was due to a massive design flaw is presumptive and emotional. And to say he's dealing out deadly products is also presumptive and emotional. Products (with an "S" at the end) is a plural term. So tell me another product that's he's sold that has failed and would be considered deadly. 90 degree angles are irrelevant if the structural integrity (the shear strength) of the material is rated higher than the pressure inside. Paul's regulators are 1/4" thick aircraft aluminum milled from bar stock in a CNC. They can easily handle the pressures that he lists they are rated for. If there was a deign flaw (as you are insinuating), then ALL of the Texan regulators would be failing. But only 1 has failed. Also, the power plenum from FX has 90 degree angles inside. It's a cylinder with 90 degree flat bottoms on both ends. And Doug Noble makes his own regulators for his custom AF rifles. His plenums are huge cylinders with 90 degree flat bottoms on them. Here's a picture:

DN Plenum.1620834019.PNG


I like Doug a lot. He's a brilliant guy. And that's why I'm using his rifles and regulators as an example of the shape not being a design flaw. If 90 degree angles were a problem, then all plenums would be spheres. Now a 90 degree corner would be an issue. But those are non existent on any of the aforementioned regulators.

And yes, the post about the reg failing was devastating to Paul's business. He personally told me that. If a power plenum on a FX somehow ruptured, then FX would do the same thing Paul did. They would go back to the drawing board and figure out how or why it failed. Then they would beef it up. But Earnest Rowe understands physics and metallurgy, and he knows the plenum is rated to handle what it's advertised to be set for. And if one ruptured (given there are 10's of thousands of them out there that HAVEN'T ruptured), they would assume the incident was based on user error. Because the knowledge and manufacturing that went into the plenum, coupled with the 99.99% of lack of failure on other similar items (which if there's 1 failure, the number will never be 100% success rate again) allows them to make an educated assumption based off of the aforementioned circumstantial evidence. And that's exactly what Paul did.
 
First of all everything you just said is wrong. Iv seen pictures of that plenum and plenty of other ppl on other forum. Its not the outside shape that matters its the inside flat surface and 90degree corners on bottle side that failed. Makes me wonder how much you even know about it.. Secondly 24h of 350bars like wtf thats Way too low pressure and also stupidly long time to apply extra structural stress on material..

And as I said EVEN ONE FAILURE IS MUCH MORE THAN ENOUGH PERIOD.

You clearly have no idea about pressure tanks, their structures or general testing tolerances what comes to safe usage... Your extra plenum alone is kinda testimony of that... Do what ever I simply cant be bothered anymore.. 
 
First of all everything you just said is wrong. Iv seen pictures of that plenum and plenty of other ppl on other forum. Its not the outside shape that matters its the inside flat surface and 90degree corners on bottle side that failed. Makes me wonder how much you even know about it.. Secondly 24h of 350bars like wtf thats Way too low pressure and also stupidly long time to apply extra structural stress on material..

And as I said EVEN ONE FAILURE IS MUCH MORE THAN ENOUGH PERIOD.

You clearly have no idea about pressure tanks, their structures or general testing tolerances what comes to safe usage... Your extra plenum alone is kinda testimony of that... Do what ever I simply cant be bothered anymore..


Your engineering credentials?
 
First of all everything you just said is wrong. Iv seen pictures of that plenum and plenty of other ppl on other forum. Its not the outside shape that matters its the inside flat surface and 90degree corners on bottle side that failed. Makes me wonder how much you even know about it.. Secondly 24h of 350bars like wtf thats Way too low pressure and also stupidly long time to apply extra structural stress on material..

And as I said EVEN ONE FAILURE IS MUCH MORE THAN ENOUGH PERIOD.

You clearly have no idea about pressure tanks, their structures or general testing tolerances what comes to safe usage... Your extra plenum alone is kinda testimony of that... Do what ever I simply cant be bothered anymore..


EVERYTHING I just said is wrong..... EVERYTHING?!?!? It's obvious you let your feelings trump your logic. And feelings don't think, feelings feel. When I said I spoke with the aforementioned people.... Is that wrong? Oh yeah..... You weren't there. And my conversation encompass "Everything" I just said. LOL. I know it's the inside surface that matters. And the inside flat surface of the Power Plenum from FX is a 90 degree flat surface butted up against a cylinder. Or how about the Tuxing filters? Again, a cylinder with a 90 degree flat surface on either end. Same with the Texan reg. I own one bro! I can look at it and spin it around in my hand. Have you ever held one in your hand or seen one in person. Ever taken one apart to look at it? Nope. You said so yourself. You've only seen one in pictures.

So when you say I clearly have no idea about pressure tanks, their structure, or general testing tolerances..... Again- TOTALLY presumptive and emotional. But since you're the expert on it, tell me friend, what makes you think your understanding is superior? With a statement like what you said, you're declaring superiority in understanding regarding these things. That's like accusing someone of being a know-it-all. You better KNOW YOUR CRAP if you accuse someone of being a know it all, because the statement in and of itself is a declaration to the world that "I know more than this person does." So please tell me what quantifies this belief. Based off of your superior knowledge (not your bantering emotions) tell me how my extra plenum alone is testimony of my lack of understanding of pressure. When I provided you with the shear strength of the steel, and the tensile strength of the filler rod I used- both of which have 35x's the rated strength of the pressure inside the plenum and the thickness and profile to easily handle the pressure..... Tell my how that plenum demonstrates a lack of understanding of pressure? It's working FLAWLESSLY! I proved the concept and the theory. So when you make something to prove concept or theory, and it works as expected.... That demonstrates a lack of understanding of what you're working on? That sounds counter-intuitive.

If you can come at me with logic and not emotion, then we'll talk. Until then.....

Pshh.1620840191.PNG

 
I think he was saying that plenum is no good because you hollowed out the fitting crooked and off center. If the gun dropped that fitting could shear that would be the fail point not the plenum body. Although I don’t know or care what the inside of plenum looks like. 


I won’t encourage anyone to make a fitting do something it’s working pressure isn’t rated for. That includes drilling it like that. A female carbon steel fitting that size is around 450 bar, but what if some new guy grabs brass it’s like 210 bar and then drills it?


airgun 101 easily explains that plenums work

I have 5 years of finite element analysis to my credit. 


I do agree that the sticky should be updated NOT Deleted, on GTA if Paul’s stuff has been independently tested.