Derrick Wall Shoots a Perfect EFT Score!

[Nofilters]

Well at Phoenix Rod and Gun Club we ARE trying to be inclusive with this great venue/discipline. So we are announcing the launch of the Marksman Division. This will be a gun and scope pkg. MSRP limit of 700$. So the hunting guys can come to shoot them their hunting guns. LOL. Details and sponsors will be announced later. So just because it appears greed and ego are steering this ship. Of course, there are the hay boys too. Let it be known that reasonable and compassion for growth are still present in some of us. announcements and videos will be on azxft.com. Oh, I almost forgot to give mention the spirit of this idea. Kip Perow of AOA is the reason a lot of us are involved with air guns.

 

[Franklink]

Yep, I'm just one guy and it's just my opinion.

Just that self-appointed leadership always makes me raise an eyebrow. I only went down this path of discussion when Derrick mentioned growth and the greater good. A groundwork is being laid for the future.

My suggestions on proper leadership are my thoughts on trying to keep extreme field target a sporting organization, not a business.

 

[Nofilters]

Well I am definitely not perfect. I self appointed the initial rules at EFT. With the announcement that these were starting point of what myself and a few shooters felt to be fair. The rules would be ongoing evolution of what the SHOOTERS voted for. So a group has to start somewhere.

 

[Nofilters]

 

[Franklink]

Derrick,

I apologize that I'm at least partly to blame for derailing this thread and detracting from your accomplishment of the perfect score. (that wasn't the intent)

The first non-mulligan perfect score in extreme ft deserves recognition up there at the level of grand prix champion status. There was discussion in some of our AZ match reports about how long it would take for somebody to do it, and if it was even possible!

I was sad to read a handful of posts back that you won't be at EBR to give everybody a run for the money.

Truly impressive.

 

[AirNGasman]

Gentlemen,

Having far too much and too painful experience with AAFTA politics and associated CONTENTIOUS debates about rules and the Board Of Governors political structure called Democracy, at this point in this thread I feel compelled to make a few observations and comments.

Virtually everyone agrees Democracy is a fine political structure. I agree, with the caveat Democracy is kept within reasonable bounds. But like anything good, Democracy can be overdone; particularly as well-intentioned proponents of as much Democracy as possible begin lobbying/demanding to be given more voice in political processes than electing representatives to represent them.

To translate- the more voices involved in decision-making processes, the less efficient becomes decision-making! Often to the point of so many thinking they ought be more involved in decision making than electing representatives that decision making devolves into contentious debates of too many voices, some invariably believing they'll be better heard the LOUDER they screech. No, I'm not alluding to anyone in this thread; rather, what I've lived through in AAFTA-related debates that bear too much resemblance to some things popping up in this thread.

As a match director I sometimes ask opinions or feedback from my shooters. Sometimes even take a poll. To be brutally honest, one of my worst character traits, more often than not it's a mistake to solicit decision-making help from anyone lacking enough (vast) experience to be qualified.

My point? Democracy taken to extremes can become its own worst enemy. I don't have to tell you where to find a excellent macrocosmic example of that statement.

 

[steve123]

I’m betting the biggest impediment for growth is the cost and hassle of the targets. Spinners or bells would do away with many of the hassles. Make the game easy for match directors and it will be more likely to flourish.

Mike

True dat. And the Oregon GP event does exactly that. No reason a club can’t start with spinners. Knock downs are more positive but spinners are a reasonable substitute.

Since I can't tell exactly where I miss most of the time, and its easier to see where debris kicks up if one misses a spinner, or similarly at Wayne's EFT match where there's a white painted steel background to more easily see where one misses, I like spinners best myself.

Same reason why I like Ron's silhouette match with the black steel background.

 

[Removed]

Derrick my friend, congratulations to you my good sir. I know how hard you practice and all that time shows in your marksmanship skills. Cheers

 

[zx10wall]

Derrick my friend, congratulations to you my good sir. I know how hard you practice and all that time shows in your marksmanship skills. Cheers

Thank you, Dana!

 

[Nofilters]

Since I can't tell exactly where I miss most of the time, and its easier to see where debris kicks up if one misses a spinner, or similarly at Wayne's EFT match where there's a white painted steel background to more easily see where one misses, I like spinners best myself.

Same reason why I like Ron's silhouette match with the black steel background.

all that would be splits would count because the spinner would move.

 

[OldSpook]

Gentlemen,

Having far too much and too painful experience with AAFTA politics and associated CONTENTIOUS debates about rules and the Board Of Governors political structure called Democracy, at this point in this thread I feel compelled to make a few observations and comments.

Virtually everyone agrees Democracy is a fine political structure. I agree, with the caveat Democracy is kept within reasonable bounds. But like anything good, Democracy can be overdone; particularly as well-intentioned proponents of as much Democracy as possible begin lobbying/demanding to be given more voice in political processes than electing representatives to represent them.

To translate- the more voices involved in decision-making processes, the less efficient becomes decision-making! Often to the point of so many thinking they ought be more involved in decision making than electing representatives that decision making devolves into contentious debates of too many voices, some invariably believing they'll be better heard the LOUDER they screech. No, I'm not alluding to anyone in this thread; rather, what I've lived through in AAFTA-related debates that bear too much resemblance to some things popping up in this thread.

As a match director I sometimes ask opinions or feedback from my shooters. Sometimes even take a poll. To be brutally honest, one of my worst character traits, more often than not it's a mistake to solicit decision-making help from anyone lacking enough (vast) experience to be qualified.

My point? Democracy taken to extremes can become its own worst enemy. I don't have to tell you where to find a excellent macrocosmic example of that statement.

Well said, that is probably why we have a Republic and not a pure Democracy for our own government. Anyway, just watching the thread.

And to Mr. Wall: "Well done, sir!". Impressive when a real shooter shows folks how to do it without a bench. I'd be lucky to hit a page of paper.

 

[Franklink]

If we're really going to keep going with this......sigh.....

Gentlemen,
.......
Democracy is a fine political structure. I agree, with the caveat Democracy is kept within reasonable bounds.........
..............My point? Democracy taken to extremes can become its own worst enemy.

What we have now is nothing resembling a democracy or even a republic.
Self-appointment is the current primary problem, followed closely by conflicts of interest.
What I proposed IS within reasonable bounds.
A simple national leadership structure where the match directors (and only the match directors) are collectively making decisions is a far cry from "democracy taken to extremes." Match directors will ultimately be the one's doing the boots on the ground WORK, in and amongst their shooters, and have and will continue to EARN the privilege of leadership. (sending out group emails doesn't count as work or represent any great effort).

And preemptively (since this weak argument keeps coming up) there is not a need for a shooters rep because all the MDs are shooters!!! Having an additional shooters rep is redundant.

There is also no need nor place for one of the big 3 retailers to be on the board. If you're really going to claim growth and inclusivity as the sole aim of the current (again, SELF-APPOINTED) administration, then why don't we bring the other 2 big airgun retailers on board too? That way we're including everybody. And to be clear, that question is posed rhetorically and facetiously.

A solution at this juncture would be for the current self-proclaimed administration to say, okay we saw that somebody needed to to step up and "herd the cats", get the ducks in a row, etc. We retroactively realize that was best done in an interim fashion and are now turning all responsibility to all overarching/national-level decisions over to the match directors. Easy peasy, no more eyebrows raised. To not do so, only reinforces the concerns I have repeatedly presented.

(And no, this is no personal power grab nor desire to be recognized. Just saying what needs said. My only personal gain here is knowing that the proposed governing board of extreme field target has the future and integrity of extreme field target at heart.)

 

[Centercut]

If we're really going to keep going with this......sigh.....



What we have now is nothing resembling a democracy or even a republic.
Self-appointment is the current primary problem, followed closely by conflicts of interest.
What I proposed IS within reasonable bounds.
A simple national leadership structure where the match directors (and only the match directors) are collectively making decisions is a far cry from "democracy taken to extremes." Match directors will ultimately be the one's doing the boots on the ground WORK, in and amongst their shooters, and have and will continue to EARN the privilege of leadership. (sending out group emails doesn't count as work or represent any great effort).

And preemptively (since this weak argument keeps coming up) there is not a need for a shooters rep because all the MDs are shooters!!! Having an additional shooters rep is redundant.

There is also no need nor place for one of the big 3 retailers to be on the board. If you're really going to claim growth and inclusivity as the sole aim of the current (again, SELF-APPOINTED) administration, then why don't we bring the other 2 big airgun retailers on board too? That way we're including everybody. And to be clear, that question is posed rhetorically and facetiously.

A solution at this juncture would be for the current self-proclaimed administration to say, okay we saw that somebody needed to to step up and "herd the cats", get the ducks in a row, etc. We retroactively realize that was best done in an interim fashion and are now turning all responsibility to all overarching/national-level decisions over to the match directors. Easy peasy, no more eyebrows raised. To not do so, only reinforces the concerns I have repeatedly presented.

(And no, this is no personal power grab nor desire to be recognized. Just saying what needs said. My only personal gain here is knowing that the proposed governing board of extreme field target has the future and integrity of extreme field target at heart.)

Reardon, we all see your point of view and appreciate your input and your inexperienced views on how things should be run.
Unfortunately 3 of the 4 current MDs disagree with you.
Ron’s post was spot on and the voice of reason and experience. I’m done with this topic. Easy day….
And not to be nit picking, there are currently 5 not 4 MDs on the BOD since the season GP finale is at EBR and Robert B is the Match Director in addition to AoA being the major sponsor of the EFT GP series. So in reality, 4 of the 5 current MDs disagree with you…

 

[thomasair]

So a false democracy taking a vote is proof that a false democracy is a valid representation of the people?

Certainly can’t argue with that kind of logic.

 

[Nofilters]

WE ALL AGREE RIGHT ??????

 

[Centercut]

all that would be splits would count because the spinner would move.

 

[Nofilters]

View attachment 289585

people in regular AAFTA set targets so splits do not fall. This would mean that regular splits should not count, which was my point. I apologize I am not as educated and worldly as you. I am surprised you allow me in your presence.

 

[OldSpook]

So a false democracy taking a vote is proof that a false democracy is a valid representation of the people?

Certainly can’t argue with that kind of logic.

Do you shoot EFT? Just curious I know you build rifles for EFT but do you shoot EFT?

 

[Franklink]

Reardon, we all see your point of view and appreciate your input and your inexperienced views on how things should be run.
Unfortunately 3 of the 4 current MDs disagree with you.
Ron’s post was spot on and the voice of reason and experience. I’m done with this topic. Easy day….
And not to be nit picking, there are currently 5 not 4 MDs on the BOD since the season GP finale is at EBR and Robert B is the Match Director in addition to AoA being the major sponsor of the EFT GP series. So in reality, 4 of the 5 current MDs disagree with you…

Okay okay, I concede, a despotic organization is definitely better than what I proposed.

And it looks like you reorganized the "BOD" since yesterday, conveniently to try to bolster your stance. Yesterday we were told, paraphrasing here......7 people total: 4MDs, You (what exactly is your position again?), the Captain of Team Daystate, and Owner of AOA. And today there's 5 MDs, the new one having a different position than yesterday, but obviously still the owner of AOA. Was everybody involved in that quick redo of the organizational structure or just you calling the shots again. What else will you change in the future when it's convenient to do so? Will it be as important as the structure of the "BOD" or something less important like a quick little rule change to alter who is announced as the winner of a match? That simply proves my point, no single person should have that much authority, especially when they somehow gave it to themselves.


Lastly, I'm glad that you've issued a royal decree that this discussion is over.

The discussion might be over, but the issues identified therein will still be present.

It's been interesting to see your mentality and general attitude towards all this play out in this discussion. Confirmed what I hoped to not be true.

 

[Centercut]

ROFLMAO... Power? Good one. To do what pray tell? I have made no decisions that affect the EFT GP without consensus of the others. Just because one MD doesn't get his way doesn't mean there wasn't an informed majority decision. And who then is the MD for the final GP event at EBR? Please let me know, obviously I got it wrong? I think we both confirmed what we hoped not to be true about each other and see your mentality and general attitude towards all this play out, although I still think you're a good guy with opinions that are different from mine. And FYI, I'm certain that both Larry and I would give up being a voting member of the BOD and just help with all the adminstrivia if the MDs wanted it that way. Please call my cell if you'd like to discuss this further, I'd like to hear what you really think and why...
PS., somehow you have appointed yourself as the member of one club to speak for everyone in every club,, and for the MD of your club.. Seems like you criticized someone for seemingly doing similar?