Thank you, Cole. I would love to know the Xtreme Troyer Factor of all these courses. This could amp me up to travel and try other courses more often.
@AirNGasman , could you share the target KZ specs and distances?
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Derrick Wall Shoots a Perfect EFT Score!
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@AirNGasman , could you share the target KZ specs and distances?
Franklin-Congrats Derrick! Amazing shooting. Nobody has cleared one here in AZ yet, not even come very close actually.
@Podna, Art, do you have the stats to work up an Xtreme Troyer Factor on the Sept 3 course? (distance and kill zone size)
Not trying to take anything away from Derrick's outstanding accomplishment, simply would like to know. Troyer Factor's have long been used in regular FT to give interested parties an idea of the course, without having been there-a reference point if you will. And that's why I extrapolated it for Xtreme, to hopefully give us a frame of reference as this becomes more popular and more and more clubs are hosting them across the country.
Extreme Troyer Factor
(Full credit goes to Brad Troyer on all of this. And thanks to CTAC for this particular image) I really enjoy analyzing the numbers for sub 20fpe field target matches, and that typically entails using Brad's chart. A few days ago I realized how cool it would be to extend this out, in both...www.airgunnation.com
I asked the match director for the kill zone sizes yesterday and I expect he will send them today.
Podna
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As many have said before me, congratulations Derrick!!
A very deserving accomplishment for a true ambassador of our sport.
A very deserving accomplishment for a true ambassador of our sport.
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Thank you.
Dave, you are an excellent ambassador of this sport as well. A truly great gentleman would describe the likes of Mr. Dave Cole.
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Excellent. I’d like to know as well. The regular Troyer is based on .177 caliber. The Extreme Troyer seems most in AZ that Cole does the stats and ET on are .22. I don’t think .25 makes that much of a difference but for smaller KZs .30 caliber does - which makes Derricks 48/48 even more incredible. Think about it, what’s easier to throw through a basketball hoop, a basketball or a softball? On KZs that are small like 1.5 inches or less, there is a difference in clearance that can be significant and would raise the ET for .30. I don’t think it makes much difference and unless you’re doing the Extreme Troyer lane with a 5/8 inch KZ at 46 yards not worth factoring in. Just a thought…
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Troyer factor is only distance and kill zone sizes, with 2 difficulty factors being added for targets past x distances.
It doesn't factor in caliber size but I do see Mike's point about bigger caliber being slightly harder to squeeze through a tiny kill zone. Although that benefit is far outstripped by the better ballistics of the larger caliber stuff we're using in extreme ft.
Regardless, a perfect score is incredibly difficult and rather rare in sub 55 yard "regular" field target, and has proven even more elusive in extreme ft. Derrick is in rare company, only him in extreme ft so far, as far a I'm aware.
It doesn't factor in caliber size but I do see Mike's point about bigger caliber being slightly harder to squeeze through a tiny kill zone. Although that benefit is far outstripped by the better ballistics of the larger caliber stuff we're using in extreme ft.
Regardless, a perfect score is incredibly difficult and rather rare in sub 55 yard "regular" field target, and has proven even more elusive in extreme ft. Derrick is in rare company, only him in extreme ft so far, as far a I'm aware.
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I see what you’re saying, but the fact is the larger caliber .30 has lesser ballistic performance (BC 0.042 for 44 gr and 0.047 for 50 gr) than both the .22 RDM (0.052) and the .25 King Heavy (0.055). In fact, last weekend I shot a couple hundred pellets each side by side in fairly stiff winds and the .25 King Heavy was noticeably better than the .30 cal 50 grain pellets. The only benefit of the .30 is being better able to see the pellet in flight to see your misses, definitely not better wind performance.
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Mike,
Don't forget the higher chance of a split pellet knocking down the target with a .30 cal pellet.... more mass and foot pounds to shave off and hit the kill paddle for a knock down than a .22 or .25 cal.
It's a really hard thing to measure the chance of, so one can't really assume that it's harder to knock down smaller kill zones with a .30 cal pellet.
Wayne
Don't forget the higher chance of a split pellet knocking down the target with a .30 cal pellet.... more mass and foot pounds to shave off and hit the kill paddle for a knock down than a .22 or .25 cal.
It's a really hard thing to measure the chance of, so one can't really assume that it's harder to knock down smaller kill zones with a .30 cal pellet.
Wayne
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Mike, since you brought up the .177 I was only pointing out that most of us would choose a .30 over a .177 if 75+ yard shots are in the mix, like they are for Extreme FT.
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Dear All Y'all:
Franklink and I have messaged "offline" and we are going to work on a common reporting format. It will include target distance and KZ size. He and I did not discuss Troyer values. I'll let others go down that rabbit hole.
Cole said, and I agree with, the stats after the match are all part of the fun!
Art "Podna" Womack
Team Wolfpack
Franklink and I have messaged "offline" and we are going to work on a common reporting format. It will include target distance and KZ size. He and I did not discuss Troyer values. I'll let others go down that rabbit hole.
Cole said, and I agree with, the stats after the match are all part of the fun!
Art "Podna" Womack
Team Wolfpack
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I mentioned difficulty factor as one of the items shooters seem to like to see. If you've got a metric other than Extreme Troyer that'd be great. That one was just easy since Brad Troyer had already done the work for < 55 yards and because it's such a well known way to rate a course already ( in the "regular" ft world).
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Could be... I was told by the manufacturer that the targets in AZ have a feature that "locks down" the target so it couldn't fall with a plate hit. So splits lock the target and can't knock the target down even with a split hitting the paddle. But that's only what I've been told, so its second hand information...
I do think .30 cal. is an advantage at your event Wayne where swingers are used... For the same reason as I think they are at a disadvantage for KZs...
Cole, the .17 reference was to AAFTA Troyer. I said that the Extreme Troyer standard in AZ was .22 RDMs...
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In theory that's how all field targets work.
The way they're set and adjusted can drastically change the threshold of energy that needs to hit the paddle to knock it down. That's why it's so critical that people setting a course understand how the targets work and put the time and effort into making damned sure that good shots knock down targets and misses don't. An otherwise amazing match can become "well this is a pretty location at least" by unreliable targets. Otherwise you've got guys with 80fpe guns just plastering the faceplate but the target base is angled incorrectly or the sear engagement bolt (for lack of a better term) has moved from repeatedly getting into banged on and no loktite or lock washers were used so the target falls, scoring a "hit" anyway. And guys with 44foe guns centering the kill zone on the same target but the target won't fall cuz they didn't smack the hell out of it. Set too "light" is bad, but set too "heavy is bad too. And there's more to setting a target than just plopping it out there at the predetermined range. MUCH more.
I think Wayne was just pointing out that a split from an 80fpe gun means more energy will hit the paddle than a split from a 30 fpe gun. There's even scenarios where a guy could hit the paddle with more energy from a split than a guy shooting a lower powered gun could impart upon the paddle from a perfectly clean kill zone shot. And since there's just that necessary energy threshold to overcome for a knocked down target ...
From what I've seen, Ron seems to know his way around a field target, probably better than anybody, so I'm not suggesting this is happening in TX matches, just making those new to the game aware.
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Yes, every location has had growing pains, how quickly we forget... Issues with targets getting hit and not falling or time not being enforced has happened in the past in AZ, guys shooting the faceplate for "sighters" and not counting those shots in TX, spotters disagreeing with shooters in OR, no one is immune, and some have had the game going longer and time to remedy those issues. Yes, Utah did have some issues, but I think they'll have learned from it and next time will be better... and lets face it, Justin Welch smoked the field, he was 10 points ahead of 2nd place, so no amount of "lucky breaks" can account for that.
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Yes, every location has had growing pains, how quickly we forget... Issues with targets getting hit and not falling or time not being enforced has happened in the past in AZ, guys shooting the faceplate for "sighters" and not counting those shots in TX, spotters disagreeing with shooters in OR, no one is immune, and some have had the game going longer and time to remedy those issues. Yes, Utah did have some issues, but I think they'll have learned from it and next time will be better... and lets face it, Justin Welch smoked the field, he was 10 points ahead of 2nd place, so no amount of "lucky breaks" can account for that.
I made no mention of Utah in my rambling.
Just a long-winded narrative about how choosing an XFT gun with gobs of energy can be an advantage. And that could quickly emerge as one strategy to get some extra points that weren't earned when care isnt taken in setting the targets. An unfortunate circumstance at any level of field target in any state.
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Competitors, choose your weapon ~ 100 FPE limit and up to .30. Let me remind all that Michael Wendt also cleaned an XFT course (40 for 40 with the use of a mulligan) using a .22 Red Wolf HP.
The Cricket is my most accurate gun. If I had a .25 or .22 high power that was more accurate, it’s what I’d be shooting. I did just install a .22 barrel on my Delta Wolf today. We shall see
Oh, and I do intend to bring my .22 Vulcan 3 some day to AZ and hope to show what a proper slugger can do.
The Cricket is my most accurate gun. If I had a .25 or .22 high power that was more accurate, it’s what I’d be shooting. I did just install a .22 barrel on my Delta Wolf today. We shall see
Oh, and I do intend to bring my .22 Vulcan 3 some day to AZ and hope to show what a proper slugger can do.
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