Delta Wolf Huma regulator?

[MushroomPsyche]

On the Delta Wolf, what is the purpose of the mechanical Huma regulator? As far as I know, the Red Wolf only has the electronic valve without a regulator. Is the Huma regulator's purpose is to give the Delta Wolf's electronic valve a more consistent pressure to work with?

Also, let's say the .22 caliber comes from the factory with the regulator set at 150 bars (I don't know the actual value), but I only ever shoot the gun at 30 FPE, is there any benefit on leaving the regulator at 150 bars since the electronics take over anyways and adjust the valving based on the set velocity for a particular projectile? From my experience with the Taipan Veteran long with a 550mm barrel, the gun only needs 95 bars to shoot the JSB Hades to 31 FPE.

 

[Centercut]

The purpose is exactly as you say; to give the electronics a stable pressure from which to work. The reg is easily externally adjustable with a flat head screwdriver. The gun gives you a “recommended” reg set pressure for your parameters of barrel length, caliber, pellet weight and muzzle velocity. But you don’t have to set it to that pressure and with some trial and error if it says 158 bar and you set it to 120 bar it may work just fine and be consistent. 
If you look at my settings below, my reg is set at 156 bar, and the recommended set pressure is 158 bar. This is .25 caliber with the Exact Heavy pellets at 890 FPS approx. However, I’ve shot it down to 138 bar and the pellet speed was still over 880 FPS. So you’d just need to try various settings and see what works. 

 

[MushroomPsyche]

However, I’ve shot it down to 138 bar and the pellet speed was still over 880 FPS. So you’d just need to try various settings and see what works.

So if this is the case, it looks like the gun is still compensating with longer dwell time since you're already well below the regulated pressure. Would it be correct to say that with a built in regulator, the gun is constantly adjusting the valve timing based on the last shot?

Also, I would guess that the slight regulator creep on most regulators would be of no consequence with the Delta Wolf if it is constantly adjusting itself.

 

[Odoyle]

They probably did that HUMA regulator thing to keep input pressure constant to avoid the once in a great while unexplained velocity spikes which has presented itself in some examples of their other electronic guns.

 

[luisj]

I read that the RW did not need to put a regulator

now for a new and better carbine if you need it

 

[luisj]

for what electronics

 

[Arzrover]

Just wanted to point out that according to HUMA, the reg can be adjusted from 90 bar to 190 bar and the rifle can be tuned just like you would for a mechanical rifle... but from the touch screen . The bottle has a valve now and can be unscrewed to to relieve pressure for lowering the reg set pressure. Pressure in the plenum MUST BE LOWER than the pressure you are adjusting down to or you will damage the reg... just like all HUMA's. It can be adjusted up without removing bottle or pressure.

The rifle will search for velocity till less than 10 fps from target, then does not apply corrections until a couple of shots are out of that range IN FACTORY MODE. It will continue to apply corrections and velocity will be maintained until there is not enough pressure to achieve the target velocity. It will continue but the rifle gets louder and louder and the velocity will begin tapering down. It was designed to achieve more power than the Red Wolf by having a large plenum of constant pressure with high flow capability to the valve. 

Also pointing out that the current Red Wolfs have a couple of new menu features that earlier ones do not... such as timeout control. I really DID NOT like that fixed time. Enter the Heliboard...... At some point, the Red Wolf line will be getting some software upgrades from trickle down on the Delta. Heliboards may become unnecessary for better user control.

Bob

 

[MushroomPsyche]

Thank you all for the information. Centercut you mentioned that there is a delay when you turn on the gun. I saw a video online and where there is a 2 or 3 second delay from when he put the safety on fire to the point the screen turned on. I believe this would be acceptable delay for hunting purposes. You also mentioned that you can set the time out from 30 seconds all the way to 1.5 hours or more. On the video I was watching, the presenter flipped the safety back on but the screen stayed on until it timed out much later while he was talking. So does this mean that putting the gun on safe will not turn the gun off? That the gun will still wait for the specified time out to actually turn off? So for example, if you set your auto power off to 1.5 hours, is there no other way to turn it off other than not touching any of the switches and waiting for 1.5 hours?

 

[Centercut]

Thank you all for the information. On the video I was watching, the presenter flipped the safety back on but the screen stayed on until it timed out much later while he was talking. So does this mean that putting the gun on safe will not turn the gun off? That the gun will still wait for the specified time out to actually turn off? So for example, if you set your auto power off to 1.5 hours, is there no other way to turn it off other than not touching any of the switches and waiting for 1.5 hours?

I'm not sure, and am in Hawaii on business until the 26th, so I can't check to give you an answer. I don't think it turns off when you take the gun to safe, so it seems you'd have to wait for it to time out, but I'll check when I get back home... I have mine set for ten minutes.

 

[MushroomPsyche]

I've been doing a lot of research into this rifle. So far, I really like the bronze version but ever since my Sig Sauer P938 Legion, I swore to myself that I will never get another gun with Cerakote finish. The finish chips especially on the edges. It would be nice to know what reg pressure the gun recommends for each caliber in heavy and light projectile weight. I would assume that since the hammer is electronically controlled, the regulator pressure is more of a guide because it doesn't have a hammer spring tension that needs to perfectly match a certain regulator pressure which is the case with mechanical guns.

I've also been watching a lot of reviews on the Red Wolf to give me an idea of what shot counts to expect since they both have the same size bottles. Please correct me if I'm wrong but would the Red Wolf and Delta Wolf still get similar shot count (for the same caliber and same power) even though the Red Wolf is controlling the valving within a much wider range of pressure since it doesn't have a mechanical regulator?

When my guns aren't being used, they typically sit on standby for the occasional backyard vermins. I usually keep the magazine topped before putting the gun away. I almost always have a pellet in the chamber ready to go. With the Taipan Veteran, it's easy to top off the magazine while there is already a pellet in the chamber because I'll just load the magazine one round short and align the empty slog with the pellet probe when I put it back in the gun. I was thinking that if I'm going to do this with the Delta Wolf, I can leave the first slot unloaded. I will then hold the magazine in the gun to keep it from spinning so that the pellet probe will go through the empty slot since there is already one in the chamber. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Arzrover]

The bronze is anodized, not Cerakoated , from what I've seen. The DW will get more shots from a charge than the RW unless you spend a huge amount of time tuning the RW. We mentioned some of our 25 and 30 shot counts in another thread. The screen will display the preferred reg pressure and actual pressure when in Factory tune mode. I can take a picture of the table in the app for reference, but a computer app is available now for pc. Not sure about Apple. The personal device Bluetooth app is coming soon from what I'm told and the preview of it sure seems AWESOME .

You would be fine with that technique but a better one would be to have 2 mags and when empty , just slide it over and fill the empty one. They are intended to be magnetically coupled for that purpose.

Bob

 

[MushroomPsyche]

The bronze is anodized, not Cerakoated , from what I've seen. The DW will get more shots from a charge than the RW unless you spend a huge amount of time tuning the RW. We mentioned some of our 25 and 30 shot counts in another thread. The screen will display the preferred reg pressure and actual pressure when in Factory tune mode. I can take a picture of the table in the app for reference, but a computer app is available now for pc. Not sure about Apple. The personal device Bluetooth app is coming soon from what I'm told and the preview of it sure seems AWESOME .

You would be fine with that technique but a better one would be to have 2 mags and when empty , just slide it over and fill the empty one. They are intended to be magnetically coupled for that purpose.

Bob

Thank you for letting me know. I will look for the thread that discusses shot count. 


Yes, it looked like anodizing to me as well but I've read at least a couple of reviews saying it was Cerakote so I emailed Daystate and they told me it is indeed Cerakote.
I'm still not completely clear on the regulator setting. On many of the videos I've seen, depending on the other parameters that was set, the gun was asking for a specific regulator pressure and it would not accept the input if the acutal reg pressure is more than plus or minus 5 of the recommended value. Is it safe to assume then that this is when using the pre-programmed factory settings? Because from your previous reply, you said that the regulator pressure can be set between 90 and 190 bars. I'm thinking that this applies when I'm using the manual settings?


My concern is this. I will use my .22 Taipan Veteran long as an example. My Taipan is setup to shoot the 15.89gr JSB Hades at around 31 FPE, 945 FPS average and the regulator is at 95 bars. Right now, the reg pressure and the HST are very well balanced. Because of this also, I am not able to increase power when using heavier projectiles without changing reg pressure because that would entail disassembling the gun to get to the regulator and then re-tuning. Not very practical if I only occasiaonlly shoot heavier projectiles or slugs. What I was thinking with the Delta Wolf, I will set the regulator around 130 bars and continue to shoot my JSB Hades at 31 FPE. Whenever I want to use heavier projectiles, I think 130 bars should be enough for around 35 to 40 FPE with that length barrel. Doing it this way with the Delta Wolf would only require me to change the profile without having to constantly change the regulator pressure as well.

 

[Arzrover]

Well, I have to defer to them, but still looks like anodizing to me.

The factory mode uses a table to reference the reg pressure and start point for any given pellet and velocity. It will ACCEPT the lower or higher pressure, but it will give a low pressure warning if the operating pressure falls 10 bar below the reference. I haven't tested carefully, but seems like it should do 35 fpe with 18.1s at 120 bar, maybe less. The 15.89s should only need about 90 bar to get into the 900s. Not sure they'll be good much above 900.

The problem with your example from my experience is that if you are tuning on the knee, it's only good for one weight of projectile. What that means is that if you tune for the heavy one, the light ones will have a larger ES. This isn't truly a problem, just something to be aware of. I've described it before, but when the rifle senses the low pressure, it goes into a equalizing mode where it is constantly monitoring and correcting similar to a Red Wolf. With a constant reg pressure, the velocity should be really consistent. The reality of the tune, though, is that small variations in any part of the firing cycle will make the velocities a little less consistent. It will just depend on what is most important to you in the moment.... highest level of consistency.... or convenience of projectile selection.

Again... you can input the reg pressure, even if highlighted red.... it will just give a low pressure warning.

Also, the app... either through Bluetooth or with computer connection.... can change the reference table, so you COULD adjust the expected reg pressure so it will not be in warning.

With the 22 barrel on mine and reg at 170, the 25.4s will go 980 but I can also put 14.3s in and have a setting where they shoot 600 for my indoor practice. I'm sure they aren't the best they can be, but I've been trying to practice offhand more and they are good enough for that.

Fun stuff!!!

Bob

 

[MushroomPsyche]

The problem with your example from my experience is that if you are tuning on the knee, it's only good for one weight of projectile. What that means is that if you tune for the heavy one, the light ones will have a larger ES. This isn't truly a problem, just something to be aware of.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say regarding the Taipan. I have it tuned to the knee to shoot the 15.89gr Hades so well. The 95 bar reg pressure though to achieve that is so low that it's unable to shoot heavier pellets at the velocities I'm trying to get. With the Delta Wolf though since I'm not worrying about tuning to the knee, I can set the regulator up for the heaviest projectile I'm planning to shoot while still continue to shoot the Hades at the velocity I'm currently shooting them at with good consistency. That way, I'm not having to change the Delta Wolf's regulator pressure every time I shoot a different projectile. Really, with the Delta Wolf, I'm only planning on shooting 3 main settings: 1. The JSB Hades at 31 FPE will always be my default for pesting. 2. NSA 17.5gr slugs at around 950 FPS for when I want to practice long distance shooting. 3. JSB Hades at around 15 FPE for times when I need the low power for safety. From your feedback, it seems setting the Delta Wolf to 120 - 130 bar reg pressure should achive this. Obviously, I am not able to achieve all these profiles with my Taipan Veteran set to 95 bars without a major re-tune between each one, which I am not willing to do so I could shoot slugs for a weekend at the range.

You also alluded to making compromises that if a gun is tuned specifically to shoot a certain projectile weight, it compromises on all the other projectiles. Would you please elaborate more on this? I am well aware of this on my Taipan but I wasn't sure if you're referring to mechanical guns or the Delta Wolf. Since the Delta Wolf doesn't have a "knee" tuning, is there any disadvantage to tuning at, for example, 31 FPE with the regulator pressure at 160 bars versus having it at 90 bars for the same power if both reg pressure are able to achieve the desired power? I'm referring more about problems with efficiency, shot counts, and consistency between the two setups. Again, this question is just for the Delta Wolf. I know the problems in doing that with a mechanical gun.

 

[Arzrover]

The Delta Wolf DOES respond to tuning on the knee. The factory mode expected reg pressure covers all projectiles one might use, so it's pretty high. It would certainly be fine with your example. The main downside would be a higher ES for the lighter pellets. From my testing , an ES of 20 is about the worst and an ES of 4 is the best I've achieved with unsorted pellets. The efficiency of either seems good but I don't chase shot counts, so don't have much data there. One thing, though.... as you go down in reg pressure, it gets gradually MUCH louder. It's strange that with the moderator, I can't tell the difference, but without it.... bring some ear plugs.... for sure in 30 cal.

The Red Wolf sips air at calibrated levels across a wide pressure range, compensating as it goes, till it gets below pressure that is optimum for the energy. You can extend this with judicious, tedious, tuning. The Delta Wolf is different in that it adds another layer of tuning with the reg. It has a fairly large plenum, so can achieve great power, but consistency is the goal across a wide range of projectiles and calibers. It also will compensate when below the reference reg pressure but that is intended to extend the shot count. It works well in our testing. Setting the reg lower helps the consistency in the same way as a mechanical rifle. Tuning is also MUCH easier, with the onboard chrono and touch screen control. The one thing I really like about both the RW and DW is that the hammer is in a virtually frictionless environment. No sear drag, no surface drag, no wear.... nothing. Only the valve itself has drag. Not sure how that could be eliminated but it's not a great amount , regardless.

At 90 bar, the ES should be lower than it will be at 160 if generating the same velocity with the same pellet. At 160, it will be quieter but will get louder and more consistent as it drops below reg. Keep in mind, we are talking about fairly small improvements in consistency in the big view. When you consider combinations of voltage and time with the reg pressure, it really does become nearly infinite in tuning possibilities. 

Hope all this is helping.

Bob

 

[MushroomPsyche]

Thank you so much for all the information. It is helping me better understand the tuning nuances of the Delta Wolf. What really draws me to the gun is the ease of tuning and the ability to change the tune back and forth and achieve the exact same parameters each time just by changing profiles!

 

[MushroomPsyche]

Another thing I'm trying to understand with this gun is the auto power off. I've asked about this before and I understand that the gun could be set between 30 seconds to 1.5 hours. When using the gun, I normally have the safety on until I'm just about ready to fire. As I understand it, the gun will go to sleep whether the safety is on or off but it will wake up quickly when the safety is put to fire mode. This seems to be perfect for me since regardless of the wake state of the gun, when I'm ready to shoot, I will flick that safety off anyways waking the gun up. What I need some clarification on is what is the actual time between flicking the safety off until the gun is actually ready to fire. A person I asked say it is instant just like the Red Wolf but I've read some people say that it takes a couple of seconds. Instant would be ideal but I think 1 or 2 seconds would still be acceptable. Regarding the auto power off, I think I will set it to 2 minutes. I don't think I've ever taken more than 2 minutes from flicking the safety off to actually taking the shot. 2 Minutes is also short enough that I think it will still be good for battery life.

Also, with the new magazines, would the magazine block the pellet probe from going into battery when empty? I know that this is the case with the Red Wolf Safari.

 

[MushroomPsyche]

I have so much question about this rifle so I apologize... but I want to be sure before buying it as the price is not a trivial amount.

1. I know the gun has what they call MCT. Does this mean that I wouldn't have to worry about the slight creep that is common with regulators and the gun will still be within extreme spread regardless of how long it's been sitting unused?

2. I'm still not totally clear exactly how the MCT. I understand that it is data points related to plennum pressure which the computer uses to determine how to open the valve to give a specific power. From their marketing, they say that the Delta Wolf is constantly compensating for the valve based on the last shot. Does this mean that the program is also constantly updating the MCT table or is it just soley adjusting the valve for the next shot based on what it saw from the last shot?

What I'm concerned about is for example I have the regulator set to 130 bars and go through a day's worth of target practice. At this time, I would assume that the computer is compensating well for 130 bars since I just spent time shooting at that pressure. I then put the gun away for a few days or a few weeks and the regulator creeps up to 140 bars. Does the gun know to compensate for this higher pressure or would it still operate the valve as if it thinks it's still at 130 bars?

 

[MushroomPsyche]

The new video that AoA put up today about the Delta Wolf answered some of my questions. In the manual mode (according to the video, the chrono reading does not feed back to the computer), since the user is setting both the dwell and lift, I would expect that FPS will rise on the first shot after a while of no use with slight regulator creep (which from my experience is about 20 FPS difference on 10 bars with a 550mm barrel).

My question is then about the "factory setting" mode. Does this mode read the regulator pressure and feed it back to the computer and make necessary adjustments just like it does with the chrono?