Daystate Tsar

[Franklink]

.....but the top shooters in WFTF (or Hunter) can do .25" or less at 55 yards from their seated position with no wind....

Don't let him discourage you too much. I had to read it a couple times cuz 20 shot groups under 0.25" at 55 yards is simply not realistic. Take heed of the emphasis I added -that's an important qualifier.

Being able to put 20 shots into an inch at 55 yards in actual real-world conditions (and being able to do so during a match) will get you in the winners circle, As long as the rest is there: no mental mistakes, scope that can range accurately, known dope, minimal wobble, ability to knockdown forced position shots, etc).

I agree, 20 shots into an inch at 55 yards makes your Tsar a solid contender.

 

[AirSmithCA]

The breech block is very strong, regulator well designed and precise, trigger is very light and smooth, and stock has about every adjustment possible. It SHOULD be very good. I struggle with mine. I shot a USFT to win the Open class in the 2018 Nationals but started using the Tsar shortly after. I did replace the barrel on mine (20 ft lb model)and it's pretty impeccably accurate with 10.3s and 13.4s. I really feel that it's a great rifle... I just still have things I need to take care of.... tuning wise. Mine wastes a lot of air and only gets 40 shots from a 220 bar fill. The air waste makes it loud and has a lot of muzzle jump which I apparently have difficulty controlling. Another Tsar shooter does pretty well most of the time and his is much quieter and less difficult to control.

Hopefully none of this is a deterrent to acquiring one of these fine rifles. They are built VERY well.... otherwise I wouldn't be bothering with it.

For another suggestion... USFTs are second only to the Thomas for solid construction and accuracy capability. Also, Daystate has the Red Wolf Ft or whatever the name is. Lauren shoots the original in our club and it's QUITE nice .... just spendy.

Hope this helps.

Bob

Not sure if you are still tinkering with the Tsar, but I remembered your comments about the shot count and air usage... thought I'd make a mention in case you are.

I just recently did a 20fpe tune (10.34's at 880's) on a Tsar with some issues, after some work on the hammer glide system, a better fitting poppet spring, a 3mm transfer port reducer, I found 45 shots from 150-100B fill with 12fpe ES out of the tin, and then approx 10 more off the reg in that same range. (Reg pressure set at 100B for this tune) There is some mild jetting, possibly could be improved but it seems appropriate for 20fpe so maybe not much.

This is the third rifle of this type I've worked on. In my experience, they shoot more erratic with a high pressure fill. So far the sweet spot on the chrony strings has been 160B down to reg pressure.

 

[Arzrover]

Thanks for that, Lonnie...
I've not tinkered with it in a couple of years but keep intending to revisit it.
I'm not actually sure what Don did to get Larry's to shoot but suspect that he raised the reg pressure till it started to slow down... sounds much quieter and snappier than mine. The poppet spring and reduced port seem like a good area to focus on. The hammer system does not lend itself to much modification and I see nothing about the glide to worry about.
Do you know what the difference is between the 20 ft lb and 12 ft lb valving?
Bob

 

[cavedweller]

my horizontal line was spot on... only variation was from the left to right wind which i was NOT trying to adjust for. Pellets were not weighed or sorted either.. i don't have any world class WFTF ambitions, just a solid shoot with me being the primary variable. I think the Tsar put in a great show following AOA's bump to <20ftlbs using the 13.43's. It will be interesting to see how it settles in over the next few weeks esp when i put my sightron FT scope on it, instead of an Element Nexus. 3/14/23 update... had some time and slapped the SVIII SSED 5-40x56 FFP sightron on the Tsar... she zeroed quickly and pellets started flying flat from 22 yards out to 42 yards.... no real appreciable drop until the pellets hit 45 yards then they began their verticle drop 1.75 " to 2" total drop. Shooting the JSB 13.43 redesigned at 719 fps to 815 fps and the barrel is good... no unexpected corkscrewing or flyers, only wind drift which was minimal considering the day... trigger is a tad touchy for my fat finger. Very please with AOA's work on this gun. I enjoyed verifying my dope chart and scopes capability using Strelock Pro - spot on.

Updating my progress on this Tsar. Initially I was really happy and then pfffft-she just started to misbehave. I gave up and sent her to a fellow Tsar owner in CA @AirSmithCA and he seems to have sorted out the multiple issues affecting this gun. Meanwhile I’ve been having a blast fitting a RAW TM1000 into an old Tsar stock!

 

[AirSmithCA]

Thanks for that, Lonnie...
I've not tinkered with it in a couple of years but keep intending to revisit it.
I'm not actually sure what Don did to get Larry's to shoot but suspect that he raised the reg pressure till it started to slow down... sounds much quieter and snappier than mine. The poppet spring and reduced port seem like a good area to focus on. The hammer system does not lend itself to much modification and I see nothing about the glide to worry about.
Do you know what the difference is between the 20 ft lb and 12 ft lb valving?
Bob

Based on the three rifles I've worked on...I dont see a difference. My Tsar was listed as a 12fpe model, Rudy's was apparently described as a 20fpe breech, but they are identical. In fact, I bought a .30cal Ataman M2 valve from PA and it actually will fit in my Tsar. Only variation is the exhaust port is larger. The OEM breech porting is 6mm, which is about what I'd expect for .25 or .30cal....so yep, higher reg pressure and smaller air transfer port was a good combination.

 

[Arzrover]

Updating my progress on this Tsar. Initially I was really happy and then pfffft-she just started to misbehave. I gave up and sent her to a fellow Tsar owner in CA @AirSmithCA and he seems to have sorted out the multiple issues affecting this gun. Meanwhile I’ve been having a blast fitting a RAW TM1000 into an old Tsar stock!

I'm glad he was able to find something on it that helped.
That's a nice looking Ataman stock. Wouldn't mind having the same arrangement myself.
The M2 series is such a well made rifle... hope yours becomes what you wanted...

 

[cavedweller]

I'm glad he was able to find something on it that helped.
That's a nice looking Ataman stock. Wouldn't mind having the same arrangement myself.
The M2 series is such a well made rifle... hope yours becomes what you wanted...

6/12/23 - My baby Daystate FT Tsar just got home from a fancy TSAR Airgun SPA.
I was so excited i was up at 4 a.m. scoping it for a moments chance to shoot it a bit end of day this week - i love my work but it sure interferes with my airgun FT hobby. @AirSmithCA .

Do you think one of these "twin brothers from different mothers" will get jealous and do the Cain V Able thing?

 

[cavedweller]

6/12/23 - My baby Daystate FT Tsar just got home from a fancy California Airgun SPA.
I was so excited i was up at 4 a.m. scoping it for a moments chance to shoot it a bit end of day this week - i love my work but it sure interferes with my airgun FT hobby. @AirSmithCA .

View attachment 364201View attachment 364202
Do you think one of these "twin brothers from different mothers" will get jealous and do the Cain V Able thing?
View attachment 364203

Same day, same rifle, different mission = zero the scope at 25 yards and shoot 25 pellets quickly from my indoor bench off bags to my outdoor range with a target set at at 55 yards plus a foot or two. 17 shots at my finger with 8 close to it.

 

[cavedweller]

 

[cavedweller]

Had my first chance to shoot a 40 shot FT course today in 95 degree weather with the Tsar in Pensacola FL. My best percentage of hits to date! However the Tsar was tough on me in the forced positions and I only hit 1 of 8 possible. Still my best FT overall kill rate to date. @AirSmithCA. Did notice a substantial poi change when not using my Weihrauch moderator. My Tsar likes the moderator!

 

[cavedweller]

Not sure if you are still tinkering with the Tsar, but I remembered your comments about the shot count and air usage... thought I'd make a mention in case you are.

I just recently did a 20fpe tune (10.34's at 880's) on a Tsar with some issues, after some work on the hammer glide system, a better fitting poppet spring, a 3mm transfer port reducer, I found 45 shots from 150-100B fill with 12fpe ES out of the tin, and then approx 10 more off the reg in that same range. (Reg pressure set at 100B for this tune) There is some mild jetting, possibly could be improved but it seems appropriate for 20fpe so maybe not much.

This is the third rifle of this type I've worked on. In my experience, they shoot more erratic with a high pressure fill. So far the sweet spot on the chrony strings has been 160B down to reg pressure.

View attachment 361257

I’m curious why a higher pressure fill creates issues? Is it because the regulator has to work too hard?

 

[AirSmithCA]

I'm not completely certain, but suspect it's a combination of harmonics and air pressure moving through the valve. The Tsar's valve has a thin 1mm oring at the neck and a 2mm thick oring at the base. My theory is that allows for some vibration/harmonic change at higher pressure. I installed a 1.5mm thick oring on both of ours, that barely fits and snuggly. My Tsar noticeably shoots best at a 150/160Bar fill.
Its completely possibly yours could do well with higher pressure fill.

Are you noticing any change with 200 bar fill?

 

[cavedweller]

I'm not completely certain, but suspect it's a combination of harmonics and air pressure moving through the valve. The Tsar's valve has a thin 1mm oring at the neck and a 2mm thick oring at the base. My theory is that allows for some vibration/harmonic change at higher pressure. I installed a 1.5mm thick oring on both of ours, that barely fits and snuggly. My Tsar noticeably shoots best at a 150/160Bar fill.
Its completely possibly yours could do well with higher pressure fill.

Are you noticing any change with 200 bar fill?

No change on poi from 200 bar fill at Saturday match - easily moved through 60 shots. But, big BUT, is I started match with No Moderator, which I have to use at home. This Meant I had to re-zero at beginning of match and again when I got home. Maybe it was fill pressure rather than the nose candle. Perhaps it was my fill pressure? I’ll experiment tomorrow on 4 July and let you know.

 

[AirSmithCA]

Most likely it was the muzzle apparatus, but I'll be very interested to know what your results are....happy 4th!

 

[Mercy Me]

I use a Tsar for benchrest very accurate. Must be lucky to have an excellent reg.
Only a 5fps spread over 40 shots. Has won me a few medals In the past.
See if you can give one a tryout to make sure it suits you and is as accurate and consistent to meet your needs.
Good luck.

 

[cavedweller]

I use a Tsar for benchrest very accurate. Must be lucky to have an excellent reg.
Only a 5fps spread over 40 shots. Has won me a few medals In the past.
See if you can give one a tryout to make sure it suits you and is as accurate and consistent to meet your needs.
Good luck.

Is yours a <12 ftlbs or <20 ftlbs version?

 

[Mercy Me]

Is yours a <12 ftlbs or <20 ftlbs version?

20 ftlbs version