D430L Yoeman's Service, shooter not so much.

We gave it a hard try this afternoon and I have to say the rifle did it's part.

I was hoping for a new personal best today, but it was not to be.

Conditions were challenging.

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On a better day, the rifle did this.

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At 1PM I took the rifle out to the bench to shoot and shot this target while trying to zero.

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It was a fail by the time I shot the second bull but I figured I continue and make sure I had the zero dead on before starting the second target. Conditions just got worse and worse as I shot.

This is the second target. It took a couple of hours to shoot it as I spent a lot of time watching wind flags for calmer air. The wind looks predictable and over the water it pretty much is but between my bench and the wind there are the house and some bushes and a couple of trees. The wind is always boiling and shifting because of the turbulance behind the obstructions. That makes it tough to call if it is blowing harder than ten MPH on the river.

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It is also a fail but there are some noteworthy groups so I figured the target itself is a lesson. It was a fail on the next to the last bull. If you zoom in on group two you will see it is four shots, nothing in the rules about shooting extras 😁. The fourth shot of that group was the one closest to the bull. The shots were clustering so tightly in that black ring that I thought I had not shot three on that bull.

The rifle will obviously shoot one hole groups with that pellet at 25 yards. When a miss happens it is pretty much obvious the shooter muffed the shot. I muffed the next to the last bull. Groups which were not one hole are down to doping the wind incorrectly and "fiddling" with zero. I muffed that group on the first shot and shot the next five shots in about two or three minutes time as I had given up and the ribs were calling my name.

Another day and the shooter will honor the rifle properly. Not bad for a $150 spring rifle.

😉

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My 430 shoots really well as well. It won't quite match my Walther rifles for absolute consistency but it isn't far behind. Well worth the price, IMO. I've found the leade into the breech to be a bit oversize and that is a bit bothersome. Some pellets will fall out if seated with just thumb pressure. The 7.9 Crosman CPHP's are just snug enough to stay in place and shoot well in mine.
 
My 430 shoots really well as well. It won't quite match my Walther rifles for absolute consistency but it isn't far behind. Well worth the price, IMO. I've found the leade into the breech to be a bit oversize and that is a bit bothersome. Some pellets will fall out if seated with just thumb pressure. The 7.9 Crosman CPHP's are just snug enough to stay in place and shoot well in mine.

For what it's worth, some old Weihrauch barrel-cockers have the same issue with the leade size. I have found the secret to happiness with those is older RWS pellet designs, due to their relatively huge skirt diameters: Meisterkugeln, Hobby, Superdome, Superpoint, Super Hollowpoint.
 
My 430 shoots really well as well. It won't quite match my Walther rifles for absolute consistency but it isn't far behind. Well worth the price, IMO. I've found the leade into the breech to be a bit oversize and that is a bit bothersome. Some pellets will fall out if seated with just thumb pressure. The 7.9 Crosman CPHP's are just snug enough to stay in place and shoot well in mine.

For what it's worth, some old Weihrauch barrel-cockers have the same issue with the leade size. I have found the secret to happiness with those is older RWS pellet designs, due to their relatively huge skirt diameters: Meisterkugeln, Hobby, Superdome, Superpoint, Super Hollowpoint.

Good to know. I'll look in my "hoarders's" supply and see what might be in there. I didn't make an inventory list as I did that unholy "hoarding" that some attack but since I did "hoard", I have stuff in there from lots of different brands. I know there are some RWS pellets I can try, as well as some H&N's. As noted, the CPHP's shoot well in it (and fit snugly enough), more than good enuogh for my needs, but consistency might be a bit better with some of those "other" brand pellets and better is better.
 
My 430 shoots really well as well. It won't quite match my Walther rifles for absolute consistency but it isn't far behind. Well worth the price, IMO. I've found the leade into the breech to be a bit oversize and that is a bit bothersome. Some pellets will fall out if seated with just thumb pressure. The 7.9 Crosman CPHP's are just snug enough to stay in place and shoot well in mine.

Interesting. I have not observed that with any pellet but I prefer tighter fitting pellets and buy them in larger diameters.

This rifle shoots better than my HW98 but being a 20 I have not had access to a lot of different pellets to try in it and one is lucky to just find pellets for it. You can forget specifying head diameters.
 
My 430 shoots really well as well. It won't quite match my Walther rifles for absolute consistency but it isn't far behind. Well worth the price, IMO. I've found the leade into the breech to be a bit oversize and that is a bit bothersome. Some pellets will fall out if seated with just thumb pressure. The 7.9 Crosman CPHP's are just snug enough to stay in place and shoot well in mine.

Interesting. I have not observed that with any pellet but I prefer tighter fitting pellets and buy them in larger diameters.

This rifle shoots better than my HW98 but being a 20 I have not had access to a lot of different pellets to try in it and one is lucky to just find pellets for it. You can forget specifying head diameters.

Might not be happening with guns made during a different production. Maybe it's the way you load it. I notice it badly with AA 7.33 Falcons and 8.44 DF pellets. If my gun is pointing upwards (my common position for loading the pellet), those 2 specific pellets will almost all just fall back out once I remove my thumb. 7.97 CPHP's all stay in in the same position.
 
You do know that you can buy pellets and specify the head size right?

The H&N FTTs I ordered for it were 4.52mm. The 4.50s don't shoot as well. This is true of any rifle. There is a head size that shoots best. Finding that head size is necessary to get the best accuracy from your rifle. That goes for HWs also.
 
I use an application called "On Target". I am sure there are others. This is the one I have used for years to do target analysis.

I imported the last target I shot yesterday and analyzed it for rifle data and shooter data. When I want to know how the rifle performed I align the groups on their centers, disregarding the aim point. This emphasizes the performance of the rifle and minimizes the performance of the shooter when the aggregate group is formed. When I want to know how the shooter performed I align the groups on the aim point and disregard hold off or hold over. This creates an aggregate which emphasizes the shooter's performance.

So for the first analysis, "Rifle" error I got this aggregate:

rifle-err.1619620574.jpg


This shows the rifle is shooting 2.59 MOA. One MOA at 25 yards is 6.35 mm (0.251"). This particular rifle really can put thirty shots in a row under a dime (2.83 MOA) at 25 yards . The next best spring rifle in the stable is probably my Model 36 which is off to John's for some work. The HW98 has not been given a real opportunity to shine yet. When I get an opportunity to get some pellets and specify head size (or sizing dies) I am confident the 98 will come into its proper place.

This next target shows how much additional error was present due to shooter error. Rifle error is included in this target and can be subtracted out.

shooter-err.1619621042.jpg


Here the group size is indicative of shooter error and the offset is zero error. This aggregate is 22.86 mm in diameter (3.6 MOA). The other "Rifle Error" aggregate is 16.42 mm in diameter. This means I introduced an additional error of (3.6-2.6) = 1 MOA. That's not bad for conditions.

This sort of analysis can really inform the shooter about his rifle and his own shooting. One thing we can see is that my group tended to be below the green "true" zero on the second aggregate. Since that green X accounts for the error in zero, shots below that were caused by some error on the part of the shooter. Figuring that out is the entire point of the exercise.

Well maybe I'll get some better wind conditions in a few days and have a chance of improving that "Shooter" error which caused me to fail the TDC this time.

NOTE ON Minute of Angle

Lately I have seen some folks calling any one inch group "MOA". That indicates a failure to understand MOA. Minute of Angle is a measurement of angle (obviously). One inch is not an angular measurement. It is a displacement. Only AT ONE HUNDRED YARDS does a displacement of one inch imply an angle of one minute. So one MOA is one inch @ one hundred yards (1.04"). One MOA at 25 yards is one fourth of an inch. A group of .177 pellets that is one MOA will have an extreme spread (outside of hole to outside of hole) of (.25+.177 ) inches. That's a hole NO LARGER THAN 0.427 inches edge to edge. If you are inclined to metrics that is 10.85 mm (a 9mm bullet will probably fill the hole). A dime at 25 yards subtends precisely 2.82 minutes of angle and that means if your rifle is shooting dime sized groups at 25 yards it is a THREE MINUTE rifle NOT an MOA rifle.




 
You do know that you can buy pellets and specify the head size right?

The H&N FTTs I ordered for it were 4.52mm. The 4.50s don't shoot as well. This is true of any rifle. There is a head size that shoots best. Finding that head size is necessary to get the best accuracy from your rifle. That goes for HWs also.

No, I know that you can buy SOME pellets and specify head size. And what shoots best in YOUR gun might not do so well in another gun. The AA 7.33 pellets (and the 8.44's as well) shot just great in my 430, but they wouldn't stay in the leade. I have some 4.52 pellets as well. Didn't shoot so well.


 
You do know that you can buy pellets and specify the head size right?

The H&N FTTs I ordered for it were 4.52mm. The 4.50s don't shoot as well. This is true of any rifle. There is a head size that shoots best. Finding that head size is necessary to get the best accuracy from your rifle. That goes for HWs also.

No, I know that you can buy SOME pellets and specify head size. And what shoots best in YOUR gun might not do so well in another gun. The AA 7.33 pellets (and the 8.44's as well) shot just great in my 430, but they wouldn't stay in the leade. I have some 4.52 pellets as well. Didn't shoot so well.



Well a couple of points here I guess. First you can sort ANY pellets and MEASURE head size. Second point, "shooting well" is a relative term. If you really keep meticulous records and sort and weigh pellets while shooting on an indoor range, You will find out that there is an OPTIMAL head size in any specific pellet for the specific rifle you are shooting. If you are shooting dime sized groups you will never notice a half MOA of error or improvement due to changes in head size. Third point, I would never suggest that what shoots well in one gun will always shoot well in any other gun, even an identical model with a serial number differing only by 1.

You might have an exceptional HW and I might have an exceptional Diana? This particular Diana shoots better than any Beeman I have ever owned and the only HW I have ever owned. Actually it shoots better than any spring/ram air rifle I have ever owned and I do not do it justice here. Even the first target in the first post doesn't do it justice but it is pretty close. There are 30 shots on that target (six groups of five shots) as well and the squares on that target are 1cm by 1cm (four tenths the size of a dime). You will observe four of those six groups will fit in one square.
 


"Well a couple of points here I guess. First you can sort ANY pellets and MEASURE head size." "Specify head size" has evolved into sorting and measuring. Never mind.


I feel your pain. That is why I don't sort pellets, I size them. That's the easy out if you can find the dies and large enough pellets to swage down a smidge (about one RCH). If I find a gun that likes a 4.51 pellet for example, I buy 4.52s and use a pell-seat. If I can't find pellets large enough I dress the skirts before I shoot them and then seat them with the pell-seat. I do literally swage down my .22 pellets though. I have a set of dies and a small Hornady hand press. My D48 and D460 both really like .218" so I buy 5.54s or 5.55s and run them through the press. The most we are talking is only a couple hundredths of a mm so maybe a thousandth of an inch? I guess the proof is in the targets. One thing for sure you can swage pellets a whole lot faster than you can sort them by head size.

You might remember these:

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I wish I had a set of them for .177.

NOTE:

The unit of measure "RCH" was established at the Defense Mapping Agency in 1980 as measured on a comparator by a physical scientist at Erskine Hall, Maryland. It is officially 30 microns. 😉The unit can be broken down using the metric prefixes thus milli-RCH, micro-RCH, nano-RCH are all valid terms.
 
I see what you are saying clearly. I understand the options for purchasing, and sizing. I was quoting YOUR statement-"first you can sort ANY pellets and MEASURE head size". "YOU" can but YOU don't? But you also said "you do know that you can buy pellets and specify head size right?" Not correct. A shooter can specify head sizes in SOME pellets, not all. I was simply pointing out that ONE specific pellet was TOO SMALL to stay in MY SPECIFIC 430 leade 😉. And "shooting well" is EXACTLY a relative term. Relative is what I'm interested in. I don't "keep meticulous records" to determine what shoots "well" for me. The gun very plainly and loudly tells me what that is. But thanks for the opinions.
 
I see what you are saying clearly. I understand the options for purchasing, and sizing. I was quoting YOUR statement-"first you can sort ANY pellets and MEASURE head size". "YOU" can but YOU don't? But you also said "you do know that you can buy pellets and specify head size right?" Not correct. A shooter can specify head sizes in SOME pellets, not all. I was simply pointing out that ONE specific pellet was TOO SMALL to stay in MY SPECIFIC 430 leade 😉. And "shooting well" is EXACTLY a relative term. Relative is what I'm interested in. I don't "keep meticulous records" to determine what shoots "well" for me. The gun very plainly and loudly tells me what that is. But thanks for the opinions.


Well, let's see. I guess we need to break this down...

It is good that you see what I am saying clearly. I was hoping to provide new information when I suggested the sizing and purchasing options, if not to you, then perhaps to a new member. My statement that you can sort any pellet and measure head size stands. You can and yes, I don't. I suppose I could have written ten thousand words in the first reply to you but while you might have needed the additional detail, the rest of the readers would have lost interest in the nitty gritty of pellet selection being discussed in a THREAD ABOUT THE D430L. Maybe that's just me. Regarding being able to buy pellets in a specific head size, the statement stands on its own, without rewrite because you can. If you really feel the compulsion to edit my posts, PM me and I'll give you my password then you can fix it for me EVEN BEFORE you find it confusing.

I am sorry that your D430L does not like the exact same pellet that mine likes, I have also been told by other owners that theirs like "this" or "that" pellet and that seems perfectly reasonable to me. That's kinda why I mentioned the opportunity to purchase specific head sizes in pellets and the sizing options. Obviously it was not explained in a way that you found palatable. It is good that we have cleared this up. I doubt that I would have been able to sleep tonight if we had not.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. I'd be really pleased to see what anything that shoots better than a D430L does on the Ten Dimes Challenge. Everyone is invited, you as well. I just like to see people make tiny little holes in paper. I want to see someone get 30 points of "braggin' rights".

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