so are diabolo shaped pellets gonna go the way of the dinosaur the way slugs have gained prominence in the last year ?
granted slugs require more power.
granted slugs require more power.
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crystal ball peek - diabolo pellets vs slugs
- Thread starter lennyk
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Heck no!
1. Cost .... enough said
2. Close range accuracy .... shooting (and hitting) moving matchsticks at 10 meters is what got me hooked on airguns, slugs aren't there yet!
3. Low power sometimes rules .... why many people get into airguns is the ability to walk out the back door and shoot. Most of us couldn't do that with powder burners and slugs kind of defeat the purpose.
4. Too many wonderful airguns that can't shoot slugs are never going anywhere, many are built to last many lifetimes.
1. Cost .... enough said
2. Close range accuracy .... shooting (and hitting) moving matchsticks at 10 meters is what got me hooked on airguns, slugs aren't there yet!
3. Low power sometimes rules .... why many people get into airguns is the ability to walk out the back door and shoot. Most of us couldn't do that with powder burners and slugs kind of defeat the purpose.
4. Too many wonderful airguns that can't shoot slugs are never going anywhere, many are built to last many lifetimes.
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The only difference between slugs and pellets is shape.
Otherwise, you will be sending the same weight projectiles, of identical material, downrange, at the selected velocity.
"Yeah...but but but...slugs have hollow points!" Unless you are using a lead alloy, the slug/pellet will flatten upon impact. In a slug the "hollow point is generally in the front. In a pellet the hollow is at the back. Upon impact the same kinetic energy must be expended, provided both projectiles are the same weight/material. In other words, whatever is hit will know no difference.
Until slug makers get a hardened or shaped projectile tip, for controlling where and how the leading areas will be peeled back...it really makes no difference. Granted shape does control accuracy in any projectile. But given identical weights, velocities, and shooting platforms...it makes no practical difference which you shoot. I've shot slugs in both choked and unchoked barrels and as long as the diameter of the slug was correct...it made no difference in fps/fpe/fp?, or accuracy.
As with powder burners...exotic materials, exotic shapes, exotic "anything" CAN produce differing results, given the same weight and velocity. However, be prepared to pay a premium price and be certain you have a specific need to achieve the exotic results you want.
Is it possible someone reading this just spit out their beer and disagrees? Wipe off your keyboard and speak up! I'm willing to learn new physics.
Kindly 'Ol Uncle Hoot
Otherwise, you will be sending the same weight projectiles, of identical material, downrange, at the selected velocity.
"Yeah...but but but...slugs have hollow points!" Unless you are using a lead alloy, the slug/pellet will flatten upon impact. In a slug the "hollow point is generally in the front. In a pellet the hollow is at the back. Upon impact the same kinetic energy must be expended, provided both projectiles are the same weight/material. In other words, whatever is hit will know no difference.
Until slug makers get a hardened or shaped projectile tip, for controlling where and how the leading areas will be peeled back...it really makes no difference. Granted shape does control accuracy in any projectile. But given identical weights, velocities, and shooting platforms...it makes no practical difference which you shoot. I've shot slugs in both choked and unchoked barrels and as long as the diameter of the slug was correct...it made no difference in fps/fpe/fp?, or accuracy.
As with powder burners...exotic materials, exotic shapes, exotic "anything" CAN produce differing results, given the same weight and velocity. However, be prepared to pay a premium price and be certain you have a specific need to achieve the exotic results you want.
Is it possible someone reading this just spit out their beer and disagrees? Wipe off your keyboard and speak up! I'm willing to learn new physics.
Kindly 'Ol Uncle Hoot
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I have to respectfully disagree Hoot, a 33.95 gr pellet and a 33.5 gr slug are vastly different. Although the weights are similar, the BC of the slug is three times that of the pellet so it drops less, carries far more energy at distance and is less affected by wind. With a 10 mph cross wind at a given distance the pellet may drift three inches where as the slug will drift half inch. FPE at say 100yds will be far superior with a slug vs. the pellet because is sheds far less velocity, thus retaining energy. With Nick Nielsen churning out slugs these days, the prices are not that far apart anymore either.
Stoti
Stoti
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I agree with Stoti in theory, and no one would argue that he hasn’t shot massive numbers of slugs in all sorts of caliber, weights, and shapes. But I’d disagree on the BC being 3 or more times that of a high BC pellet. The BC of the 34 grain .25 Heavy is about .05. The BC of most .25 slugs from 26.8 to 33.5 grain is .09 to 1.1. So twice as much is closer to it. Advantage? Damn straight. 1/2” to 3”? Probably not, since wind drift is directly proportional to BC.
Ok I just don’t want adopters of slugs to have too high an expectation. I shot 50.1 grain pellets versus 50 grain slugs in high winds this weekend at 100 meters from a Daystate Safari and the slug drift was approximately half of the pellet drift. Unscientific, but ball park. We appreciate all the info Stoti has been passing on to us, please don’t get me wrong... and the BC database will be awesome! Thanks much!
Ok I just don’t want adopters of slugs to have too high an expectation. I shot 50.1 grain pellets versus 50 grain slugs in high winds this weekend at 100 meters from a Daystate Safari and the slug drift was approximately half of the pellet drift. Unscientific, but ball park. We appreciate all the info Stoti has been passing on to us, please don’t get me wrong... and the BC database will be awesome! Thanks much!
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I was just throwing guestimates out there to show a point. I use a BC of about .036 for the 33.95gr with some of the slugs up in the 1.1 to 1.2 range so I said three times, maybe not exactly, but close. I know better that to speak in non-exact measurements and figures too. It gives people unreasonable expectations! I was shooting at a 100yds in a pretty good wind yesterday and the pellets were drifting near 3 inches, slugs maybe 1 inch. The slugs were 38.5 though. Stoti
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Gotcha. I just don’t want some N00b to get into slugs, get one shooting accurate, then shoot it at 100 meters in a 30 mph crosswind and be disappointed and discouraged that his slug is drifting a foot because he heard slugs “buck the wind”.
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Guys,
I've been working on attempting to get a slug to shoot well out of purely .177 12 ft lb limit rigs. I've found that most, if not all slugs, drift significantly less in the wind, compared to their diabolo counterparts. The BEST I could get any traditional pellet was in a 15 mph wind at 90 degrees, was around 7.5 inch drift or so, and that was the best!! The worst drifted almost 14 inches.
In the slugs that I have made, which were sized properly for my TM1000 and Steyr LG 110 by the manufacturer that created said dies, I've found this:
Shooting them in real time I've achieved a BC of .082. This was done by acquiring the velocity at muzzle, and at 55 yards, with the same chronograph. With that same information from above, my slugs will drift somewhere around 3 inches or less. These were done with S2 ogive hollowpoints that weigh 15 grains, with a flat base. These will retain over 10.4 ft Lbs of energy at 55 yds, where the best performing diabolo pellet yields a little over 7. So the quest for low power slug accuracy and performance continues.......
Tom Holland
Field Target Tech
I've been working on attempting to get a slug to shoot well out of purely .177 12 ft lb limit rigs. I've found that most, if not all slugs, drift significantly less in the wind, compared to their diabolo counterparts. The BEST I could get any traditional pellet was in a 15 mph wind at 90 degrees, was around 7.5 inch drift or so, and that was the best!! The worst drifted almost 14 inches.
In the slugs that I have made, which were sized properly for my TM1000 and Steyr LG 110 by the manufacturer that created said dies, I've found this:
Shooting them in real time I've achieved a BC of .082. This was done by acquiring the velocity at muzzle, and at 55 yards, with the same chronograph. With that same information from above, my slugs will drift somewhere around 3 inches or less. These were done with S2 ogive hollowpoints that weigh 15 grains, with a flat base. These will retain over 10.4 ft Lbs of energy at 55 yds, where the best performing diabolo pellet yields a little over 7. So the quest for low power slug accuracy and performance continues.......
Tom Holland
Field Target Tech
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Pellets are here to stay, IMHO. They are perfectly suited to 50-60 yrds and closer, as well as lower power applications. I'll take a polymag anyday at close range, cause I know it hits accurate, hard, and stops fast. Check out gel tests on a .30 cal JSB pellet (on youtube)... I was quite surprised with the wound channel... not what I was expecting.
Slugs are also here to stay... they are a great tool for longer range applications when less drift, drop, and energy retention become a deciding factor on a humane shot vs a wounded animal.
Both have their places, and for us it's a win-win. Just more tools for us all to utilize.
Slugs are also here to stay... they are a great tool for longer range applications when less drift, drop, and energy retention become a deciding factor on a humane shot vs a wounded animal.
Both have their places, and for us it's a win-win. Just more tools for us all to utilize.
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I know lots of people are going to disagree but I have a problem with the .25 King Heavies and there BC.
I know that pellet has won EBR with Ted and of course CC but I don’t think it is 100% stable.
Ive watch the video of Ted shooting ten shot groups at 100y sub moa and seen spiralling pellets. (With the gun that won EBR)They still grouped very well though.
If they where 100% stable then there superior bc would make them the pellet of choice instead of the .30 cal.
When I see a ten shot group sub moa at 100y in slow mow with no spiralling I’ll be convinced.
I shoot quite a bit at night and out of 3 different barrels I can shoot good groups but guess what. Unstable.
At 100y straight cross winds aren’t so difficult to work out but the projectile dropping and rising can be near impossible to predict and as a hunter that where the higher bc makes more of a difference.
For hunting they really do make a massive difference.
If you really want to compare the difference on a windy day at 100y set up 2 targets. Shoot no sighters!
Take the first shot with a slug at target 1 and the second with a pellet at target 2 and compare.
Forget your groups just one shot slug then pellet.
Most people will start shooting pellets in groups and walk there shots to there point of aim. Then go look at that ! Look how accurate these pellets are. Look at the size of the group. That is no comparison of accuracy. How close is you first shot to the bullseye!
How often do people show there tight group but it’s miles from the bullseye ?
You can look at the wind and make your best judgment on how it will affect your shot but the best indicator when shooting pellets is shoot a couple and see where they land As soon as you do that your no longer really comparing bc’s with slugs anymore
I know that pellet has won EBR with Ted and of course CC but I don’t think it is 100% stable.
Ive watch the video of Ted shooting ten shot groups at 100y sub moa and seen spiralling pellets. (With the gun that won EBR)They still grouped very well though.
If they where 100% stable then there superior bc would make them the pellet of choice instead of the .30 cal.
When I see a ten shot group sub moa at 100y in slow mow with no spiralling I’ll be convinced.
I shoot quite a bit at night and out of 3 different barrels I can shoot good groups but guess what. Unstable.
At 100y straight cross winds aren’t so difficult to work out but the projectile dropping and rising can be near impossible to predict and as a hunter that where the higher bc makes more of a difference.
For hunting they really do make a massive difference.
If you really want to compare the difference on a windy day at 100y set up 2 targets. Shoot no sighters!
Take the first shot with a slug at target 1 and the second with a pellet at target 2 and compare.
Forget your groups just one shot slug then pellet.
Most people will start shooting pellets in groups and walk there shots to there point of aim. Then go look at that ! Look how accurate these pellets are. Look at the size of the group. That is no comparison of accuracy. How close is you first shot to the bullseye!
How often do people show there tight group but it’s miles from the bullseye ?
You can look at the wind and make your best judgment on how it will affect your shot but the best indicator when shooting pellets is shoot a couple and see where they land As soon as you do that your no longer really comparing bc’s with slugs anymore
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I think pellets were an amazing phase that we should all go through. Some of the best times I've had. Cheap, accurate, and safe.
Now we're shooting slugs over 200 yards consistently and refer to 100 yards as close range. Lol. I hit a 4" target 3 times in a row at 200 yards free handed and off the bench was hitting golf ball sized apples at the same range with slugs last weekend. So for me there is no going back.
I think a person just needs a chance to shoot slugs at over 150 yards and you're hooked. Most folks probably can't shoot that far so pellets will always be around.
Now we're shooting slugs over 200 yards consistently and refer to 100 yards as close range. Lol. I hit a 4" target 3 times in a row at 200 yards free handed and off the bench was hitting golf ball sized apples at the same range with slugs last weekend. So for me there is no going back.
I think a person just needs a chance to shoot slugs at over 150 yards and you're hooked. Most folks probably can't shoot that far so pellets will always be around.
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Slugs will never completely replace pellets, too many guys like me who shoot old 10m rifles and lower power stuff. Plus I have no desire for high power PCP rifles, for long range I have 52 Winchesters and real long range, centerfires.
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Some people are always wanting to pit pellets and slugs against each other as if you can't have both options. You need to think of the various types and weights of slugs and pellets as a tool to get a job done. Just like when you build a house you just don't limit yourself to one type of nail, you pick the one that will meets the needs. Bill
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The way my Red Wolf shoots JSB 25 RD's , there is no way I am going to switch totally to slugs . The pellets work stupidly well in my gun and therefore I know they are spot on out to 100 yards . If I am hunting at semi close range , its pellets all the way . When extended shots are needed , 90 yards plus and out further its slugs . I think there is always going to be a place for pellets , With the advent of pellets like JSB Hades , I think if your gun does not shoot slugs , stick with Hades and your well in .
Rog
Rog
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I'm part of the pellet AND slugs group... will never give up my pellet guns but think that slug-guns definitely have their place in the airgun world.
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