Sorry, I'm a little late to this thread. Which butt hook did you end up getting? Is this the SubMOA?
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Clearly I needed another hole in my head.........
- Thread starter qball
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Yes, submoa from Spain. Not sure what happened but my last order never showed up but my friends order showed up promptly, guess I got jacked by shipping.
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CongratulationsI was toying with the idea of trying HFT so I reconfigured my Crown for it, even got it shoot really quite well and pretty excited about it. Then one day I saw a thread from Mike at Thomas rifles about new dealers/gun smith, one of them being @motorhead who happens to live just 3 exists away from me. Thomas to me has always been the cream of crop when it comes to FT guns and has famously long wait. Then @motorhead started a thread about him starting as a Thomas dealer and he happened to have 1 full kit, my impassiveness kicked so in told Scott to put my name on it. Long story short and 2 weeks later I picked it up last night and I am just ecstatic!
The gun is simply awesome with every single detail superbly engineered and more adjustment than I can list on 2 hands! I'll let the picture do the talking since I don't even have it setup to me and don't even have the correct rings on.
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Scott aka @motorhead shot this group at 25 yards off of shooting sticks HFT style before I picked up the gun. Obviously it’s accurate so I can look really good holding the gun at the match, I can always blame unsorted pellets!
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Edit: I have decided a name for my Thomas, since it’s black and white I’ll call it Pepe Le Pew! Also because it would start to stink real bad when I start shootings it! LOL!
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After 1 year/season of shooting my Thomas in FT matches I decided Pepe needs some upgrades, we always need upgrades right? After trying @Motorhead's Thomas (started as twin to mine) with his magic touches which even at 20fpe is simply unbelievably settled and quiet. I knew I had to have him put some of his magic pixie dust on mine. Due to his busy schedule I finally was able to pick up my Pepe this afternoon and couldn't be happier.
First and foremost, just dry firing it's quieter and has a snappier sound to it. With a pellet the gun is just so settled, it hardly moves compared to before. I can visually track my pellet in flight with ease!!! Thanks to that I will change my grip and how I hold the gun, I don't have to manage recoil nearly as much. Also because it's so settle it's less hold/followthrough sensitive so it feels like it's easier to shoot accurately. Simply sugar cream puff!!!
Grabbed a new tin of pellet and sat down on the bum bag to try it after the surgery, I'm pretty blown away by just how much easier to shoot. The top right hole in the black ring was me trying to find my POI, the gun isn't zeroed at this point. Then I manage to put 4 pellets in a single line touching with some side wind at 32 yards! To say I'm happy is definitely an understatement, it feels like a different gun!!! Will zero and do some more testing this weekend but I'm really tickled silly with it so far.
First and foremost, just dry firing it's quieter and has a snappier sound to it. With a pellet the gun is just so settled, it hardly moves compared to before. I can visually track my pellet in flight with ease!!! Thanks to that I will change my grip and how I hold the gun, I don't have to manage recoil nearly as much. Also because it's so settle it's less hold/followthrough sensitive so it feels like it's easier to shoot accurately. Simply sugar cream puff!!!
Grabbed a new tin of pellet and sat down on the bum bag to try it after the surgery, I'm pretty blown away by just how much easier to shoot. The top right hole in the black ring was me trying to find my POI, the gun isn't zeroed at this point. Then I manage to put 4 pellets in a single line touching with some side wind at 32 yards! To say I'm happy is definitely an understatement, it feels like a different gun!!! Will zero and do some more testing this weekend but I'm really tickled silly with it so far.
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Springer…….I’m not that into:
Ok, at least not this season. I am lucky enough to have @Motorhead 3 exits down the freeway so should take advantage of that!
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Chang shoots WFTF class ... next closest thing to personal mutilationSpringer…….I’m not that into:
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Ok, at least not this season. I am lucky enough to have @Motorhead 3 exits down the freeway so should take advantage of that!
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Chang shoots WFTF class ... next closest thing to personal mutilation
You are a magician Scott!!! Found a few minutes after dinner to try and zero the gun on my “bench”. No wind, at my zero of 23 yards put 3 through the same exact hole, half a pellet over then more through the same hole. It is just so easy to shoot now. Holly crap!!!
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Sounds like you had a terribly wasteful tune to begin with. That’s too bad. It’s easy to get 1.25 ci/fpe which would result in 175 shots on a 3200 psi fill…or 250 shots if you set the reg lower for 12 fpe. At least you have it decent now. 
Getting 25 shots completely under a dime is normal at 50y….or 25 at 25y under .315” outside to outside is standard.
Mike
Getting 25 shots completely under a dime is normal at 50y….or 25 at 25y under .315” outside to outside is standard.
Mike
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Sounds like you had a terribly wasteful tune to begin with. That’s too bad. It’s easy to get 1.25 ci/fpe which would result in 175 shots on a 3200 psi fill…or 250 shots if you set the reg lower for 12 fpe. At least you have it decent now.
Getting 25 shots completely under a dime is normal at 50y….or 25 at 25y under .315” outside to outside is standard.
Mike
Yes, the gun started out at HFT or 20FPE which I turned the hammer down to 12 FPE. Probably not ideal way to start but Scott did some magic to get it to be very efficient now. Biggest difference really is how settled the gun is now which makes shooting more accurately easier for me at least. I have gotten pellet sized hole groups before but it took more work/concentration.
That barrel is just magical with the 10.3 grain pellets! Thanks Mike!!!
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Yes…you cannot turn the hammer down to 12 fpe from 20fpe and expect the gun to shoot properly. Adjusting the length of the jet with a small hammer adjustment is the proper way. It’s actually not magic….it’s just the right way. I’m glad it’s shooting well for you now. That’s how they are supposed to be. 
Mike
Mike
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Scott lightened the hammer and spring considerably along with lower reg along with some other small mods, so less force flying back and forth. With less inertia from the hammer the gun is super settled, it always shot great but it’s now easier to shoot especially in my FT position. No actual “magic” but certainly very fine tuning on a very fine gun.
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Yea a hammer @ 40% lighter, tad less poppet spring and a huge change in hammer spring rates having a controlled free flight hammer ( SSG ) along with some other poppet & transfer path mods the 12 fpe tune sings along on @ 80bar set point with a very tight ES. SOOOOO much quieter, Far Less shot vibration / Jump.
Yes indeed many ways to get a PCP tuned / set up other than factory spec. ANY air gun can be improved upon ... some simple things, others not so much.
Enjoy your THOMAS, indeed one fine piece of specialty AG hardware
Yes indeed many ways to get a PCP tuned / set up other than factory spec. ANY air gun can be improved upon ... some simple things, others not so much.
Enjoy your THOMAS, indeed one fine piece of specialty AG hardware
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I suppose the word improve is subjective.
Ssgs have the dubious advantage of creating a forward pulse when they hit their stop. This happens an instant before the rearward pulse of recoil…so they cancel some of the rearward pulse movement and often produce a nice feel. The downside is that the gun is now completely reliant on this mechanically created additional pulse to maintain its vertical poi. This is easily demonstrated by sighting in a gun with a ssg…then adjusting the ssg or removing it and observing the subsequent vertical poi change. At 50y…it can be up to an inch of difference. As long as the additional device creates the exact same forward pulse every time…life is good. It won’t , though. If you don’t mind having double or more vertical over time than the rifle will have without it…you’re all set. Besides manufacturing a forward pulse..it’s no better at keeping bounce away than a stiffer spring with some free flight. Adding mechanical devices means you have more dynamic parts to do the same job. That’s never a good thing.
The other issue is that the ssg will change the spring rate that the temperature compensation was designed for. Using thermal expansion to its benefit…the designed system will keep a constant velocity over a huge span of temperature…like 60 degrees. Change the spring rate…that’s gone. You can always just keep track of the temp and manually adjust like the other guns, thiygh.
Guns are quiet when they use less air. Efficiency can be quantified in fpe/ci. Guns tuned poorly will exhibit low fpe/ci numbers. The stock system is easily capable of a reliable 1.25 fpe/ci while maintaining single digit velocity spreads. Saying a gun is so much quieter implies it’s more efficient. Is it?
What is the actual measured efficiency? If it’s holding a reliable and low velocity spread…I doubt it’s much better than 1.25, because after you get more than that you will begin seeing increased velocity spreads and increased temperature sensitivity.
I already know what the cylinder capacity numbers are…so you can just hook up a fill setup and after adding air, close the valve on the bottle and count the number of shots per 100 psi. Best to take an average over 400 psi or so.
I’m sure the gun is quieter over the wasteful 20 fpe tune it was set up with to start….but it would be great to get an actual fpe/ci number to make a real comparison to the properly tuned standard configuration which will yield 1.25 fpe/ci.
Would also be good to measure the velocity change vs temperature. You can put the gun in a refrigerator for 4 hours or so and take an internal temp on the barrel. Shoot over a chrono and observe the velocity as the gun comes back to ambient.
In my opinion, which is entirely based on performance …making a gun feel nicer isn’t a good trade off for poi and velocity stability….unless you are entering a nice feeling gun contest.
Will also be interesting to see how a plastic (or whatever lighter material used) hammer does against the 60 HRC trigger sear over time, too. Considering the hardened sear will tear up a 4140 PH hammer at RC 28…I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t have a huge draggy burr in a short time.
Mike
Ssgs have the dubious advantage of creating a forward pulse when they hit their stop. This happens an instant before the rearward pulse of recoil…so they cancel some of the rearward pulse movement and often produce a nice feel. The downside is that the gun is now completely reliant on this mechanically created additional pulse to maintain its vertical poi. This is easily demonstrated by sighting in a gun with a ssg…then adjusting the ssg or removing it and observing the subsequent vertical poi change. At 50y…it can be up to an inch of difference. As long as the additional device creates the exact same forward pulse every time…life is good. It won’t , though. If you don’t mind having double or more vertical over time than the rifle will have without it…you’re all set. Besides manufacturing a forward pulse..it’s no better at keeping bounce away than a stiffer spring with some free flight. Adding mechanical devices means you have more dynamic parts to do the same job. That’s never a good thing.
The other issue is that the ssg will change the spring rate that the temperature compensation was designed for. Using thermal expansion to its benefit…the designed system will keep a constant velocity over a huge span of temperature…like 60 degrees. Change the spring rate…that’s gone. You can always just keep track of the temp and manually adjust like the other guns, thiygh.
Guns are quiet when they use less air. Efficiency can be quantified in fpe/ci. Guns tuned poorly will exhibit low fpe/ci numbers. The stock system is easily capable of a reliable 1.25 fpe/ci while maintaining single digit velocity spreads. Saying a gun is so much quieter implies it’s more efficient. Is it?
What is the actual measured efficiency? If it’s holding a reliable and low velocity spread…I doubt it’s much better than 1.25, because after you get more than that you will begin seeing increased velocity spreads and increased temperature sensitivity.
I already know what the cylinder capacity numbers are…so you can just hook up a fill setup and after adding air, close the valve on the bottle and count the number of shots per 100 psi. Best to take an average over 400 psi or so.
I’m sure the gun is quieter over the wasteful 20 fpe tune it was set up with to start….but it would be great to get an actual fpe/ci number to make a real comparison to the properly tuned standard configuration which will yield 1.25 fpe/ci.
Would also be good to measure the velocity change vs temperature. You can put the gun in a refrigerator for 4 hours or so and take an internal temp on the barrel. Shoot over a chrono and observe the velocity as the gun comes back to ambient.
In my opinion, which is entirely based on performance …making a gun feel nicer isn’t a good trade off for poi and velocity stability….unless you are entering a nice feeling gun contest.
Will also be interesting to see how a plastic (or whatever lighter material used) hammer does against the 60 HRC trigger sear over time, too. Considering the hardened sear will tear up a 4140 PH hammer at RC 28…I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t have a huge draggy burr in a short time.
Mike
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Shows what you only thing you know of SSG devices. You state the WRONG way in setting one up ( As in the backing Plate, stop rod all being in motion )
Nope, not set up as such ... Only parts in motion the spring and a nylon washer ...
The temp shift thing you elude too w/o stating how that was designed remains intact ...
Drop away hammer holding sears ( Theoben architecture ) don't burr up Synthetic hammers when edges are prepped correctly.
As too the rest ... keep doing it your way & I'll keep doing it my way.
And YES a nice shooting & smoother shot cycle is more accurate ...
Have a nice day
Nope, not set up as such ... Only parts in motion the spring and a nylon washer ...
The temp shift thing you elude too w/o stating how that was designed remains intact ...
Drop away hammer holding sears ( Theoben architecture ) don't burr up Synthetic hammers when edges are prepped correctly.
As too the rest ... keep doing it your way & I'll keep doing it my way.
And YES a nice shooting & smoother shot cycle is more accurate ...
Have a nice day
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Care to actually put those items to a test or subject it to peer review?
Accuracy is easy to measure…temp shift is easy to plot, and so is efficiency.
I’ve got tons of long term data to compare to.
Accuracy is easy to measure…temp shift is easy to plot, and so is efficiency.
I’ve got tons of long term data to compare to.
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