Classifieds, shipping issues, shipping insurance and PayPal

[CoyoteGod]

I wanted to start a conversation on buying and selling on this forum when it comes to shipping, shipping insurance and the courier used and PayPal. At what point does the responsibility of the seller end and the responsibility for the buyer begin? I think this is a fairly straightforward answer. 

First my stance on the issue. I do not believe the seller is responsible for the package from beginning to end. Obviously if you as the seller package the items like crap and things are damaged, or if you sell a product broken and don't disclose that, you are fully responsible and you're a dirtbag thief. What I am talking about is if the seller follows the deal outlined in the add fully, is prompt and sends the package the way parties agreed, such as USPS priority mail, Fedex, UPS - insured or not insured, then once it is shipped, then the courier has the box and the responsibility to get that box to the buyer is with courier, not the seller. If the package is lost in transit that's the couriers fault not the seller, but is the seller obligated to refund money? EVEN if the package was fully or partially insured, still the responsibility is on the courier and the buyer to recover the insured value with the amount of insurance they purchased, if it was offered and purchased the original deal. Sure maybe the seller needs to file some claim paperwork for the buyer to get his/her money but that I am sure isn't an issues for most.

If a seller does not offer insurance as part of the deal and you do not prompt the seller to add insurance then I believe that is on the buyer. Why would you assume your item is insured if it is not clearly stated in the add? If unsure, then ask! You agreed to a deal, that deal did not include extras you did not pay for or asked for. Most of us are not a business where we have product laying around we can just resend, or charge back to the manufacture. 

Now the sticky issue with PayPal. Paying with goods and services vs paying friends and family. So apparently the process for making a claim on PayPay does not differentiate between these two. As soon as a complaint is made, your account is deducted money, without investigation, without due process with either option. PayPal holds the money till the "investigation" is complete (up to 30 days). You go through a long process of providing "evidence" and have to wait for their decision. In the meantime, you are sent an email saying your account will be reviewed because you sold goods and services without paying the fee and your account status will be reviewed. Meaning, one will probably lose PayPal access. So FF is always good to save a little money with a buddy, but you could lose your privilege of use if you do FF with a stranger, even if the buyer chose to pay you FF, chose not to add insurance or more insurance, but then files a claim.

This is a place for fellowship, making friends and support a community of like minded people, no one wants to hurt anyone or make enemies? When a package is lost, it hurts us all and the classified section. My advice, always insure for at least your cost, if you don't it's your risk. So what is your option on this guys? 

EDIT - I want to make it clear I am not trying to passive aggressively air dirty laundry here, I am simply wanting some feedback and start the conversation for an important topic.

 

[elh0102]

The buyer-seller and shipping issues get into some legal issues that I will leave to the lawyers.

As for PayPal, my answer is simple, I don't use it. One exception, I have purchased through PP using my credit card. But I will never open an account that makes my bank account accessible to PP.

In my forum purchases, I talk to the seller and become comfortable or not. If comfortable, I send a check and let the seller collect it before shipping. If selling, I accept most anything, but ship only after collected funds are in my account. Yeah, old fashioned.

 

[dens228]

I've only had one package I was expecting lost. Seller told me to contact the shipper. Shipper told me I couldn't make the claim, only the seller could. I contacted the seller, they filed the claim and were compensated, they then compensated me. In all honesty it was so long ago I can't remember for the life of me what courier was used to ship though. 

 

[esingle]

Hello when I sell something I usually use USPS priority mail with a tracking # and I pay for the shipping. I do my best to pack the item as best as possible, double or triple boxing and if there is an issue with the item (damaged /missing) it is my problem and I will take it up with the carrier. As you said coyotegod it is a great idea to insure it as well. When the seller receives the item I hope he is happy and item is as described or better. As for payment I only use PayPal and I don't ask for F&F but let the buyer choose which they prefer. I plan on selling one of my pcp rifle soon and and probably use UPS ground due to selling it with a 3000psi fill unless the buyer request otherwise(still taking pictures and crono data). As you said earlier coyotegod this is a place to make friend and not enemies so we should all try our best to make every transaction the best one possible. Eric

 

[Cannonball]

The buyer-seller and shipping issues get into some legal issues that I will leave to the lawyers.

As for PayPal, my answer is simple, I don't use it. One exception, I have purchased through PP using my credit card. But I will never open an account that makes my bank account accessible to PP.

In my forum purchases, I talk to the seller and become comfortable or not. If comfortable, I send a check and let the seller collect it before shipping. If selling, I accept most anything, but ship only after collected funds are in my account. Yeah, old fashioned.

Edit - replied to wrong post

 

[pcwhite]

I just pay the small paypal fee and do it legit. That way I have "some" protection and the buyer gets some assurance. Fees are still way less than Ebay. I always insure more expensive items usually at my cost. I worked for USPS for 13 years. Still amazed anything ever arrives.

 

[klentz]

I’ve shipped hundreds of guns. I was an FFL in the 80’s and 90’s. I’ve also got over 15 pages of feedback on the old yellow BOI mostly from selling and shipping airguns. Here’s my perspective:

The seller is responsible for the package from beginning to end. Period. If the package is lost or damaged during transit it’s the seller’s responsibility. For these reasons any seller that doesn’t pay for insurance is a fool. Insurance protects the seller not the buyer. How various shippers handle claims is another topic but beware of USPS. If the package doesn’t arrive of course the buyer is entitled to a refund. This leads us to reliable tracking information which is another topic but beware of USPS.

As for PayPal, if you’re a seller F&F gives you some benefits. PayPal goods and services provides protection for both the seller and buyer but know if there’s a dispute the burden is primarily on the seller to provide evidence of item shipped in good condition. How many of you seller’s pause during packing a high end airgun for shipping and take several quick photos of the packing process and a final photo of the shipping label attached? If you haven’t it tells me that you’ve never had a claim with a shipper or PayPal. Hope this perspective helps a few.

 

[ChRiSiS]

I’ve shipped hundreds of guns. I was an FFL in the 80’s and 90’s. I’ve also got over 15 pages of feedback on the old yellow BOI mostly from selling and shipping airguns. Here’s my perspective:

The seller is responsible for the package from beginning to end. Period. If the package is lost or damaged during transit it’s the seller’s responsibility. For these reasons any seller that doesn’t pay for insurance is a fool. Insurance protects the seller not the buyer. How various shippers handle claims is another topic but beware of USPS. If the package doesn’t arrive of course the buyer is entitled to a refund. This leads us to reliable tracking information which is another topic but beware of USPS.

As for PayPal, if you’re a seller F&F gives you some benefits. PayPal goods and services provides protection for both the seller and buyer but know if there’s a dispute the burden is primarily on the seller to provide evidence of item shipped in good condition. How many of you seller’s pause during packing a high end airgun for shipping and take several quick photos of the packing process and a final photo of the shipping label attached? If you haven’t it tells me that you’ve never had a claim with a shipper or PayPal. Hope this perspective helps a few.

I have to agree with this! As a seller you are 100% responsible until the package gets delivered to the buyer. After all, you do the shipping. I always insure my packages for the full cost of the item (i.e., for the full amount I receive from the buyer). If there is a problem with shipping I am the only one who can file a claim, not the buyer. Now, whether as a seller/shipper or as a buyer, I always communicate with the other person in the transaction, and cooperate in the (thankfully rare) occasion when something goes awry. That’s just a combination of good manners and good business practice, but the responsibility lies with the shipper.

And yes, i always take photos which document the packing/packaging process. I usually text those to the buyer along with a copy of the receipt from USPS/UPS/FedEx as well.

Chris

 

[oldsparky]

I posted this before but. I sold a PP700 to a forum member. I did take pictures. I sent it USPS and Insured for the full price I bought it for when new. It was in perfect condition and couldn't be found. Anyway It got lost in the mail. The tracking showed it was in his state but stuck in a post office. Long story short I called and called the post office where it was stuck, the post office said its not lost. The package hadn't moved in almost a month. I filed a claim that got denied asking for proof of value. Then the package magically got delivered. The question I have is insurance. I always over insure. But wonder if the USPS will pay?

 

[klentz]

I posted this before but. I sold a PP700 to a forum member. I did take pictures. I sent it USPS and Insured for the full price I bought it for when new. It was in perfect condition and couldn't be found. Anyway It got lost in the mail. The tracking showed it was in his state but stuck in a post office. Long story short I called and called the post office where it was stuck, the post office said its not lost. The package hadn't moved in almost a month. I filed a claim that got denied asking for proof of value. Then the package magically got delivered. The question I have is insurance. I always over insure. But wonder if the USPS will pay?

Good question. In my experience although the USPS is a quasi governmental agency it shares their bureaucratic temperament. Their first action in any claims that are filed is to deny the claim. This is only after submitting their filled out claim forms, photos and you must take the package with contents and packing materials to the local post office. Proof of value must also be submitted. Once it’s denied you must fill out more forms for appeal. That will be denied. Being a quasi governmental agency they are protected by sovereign immunity so suing them, even in small claims court, isn’t an option. Let me wrap this up by saying my one claim with USPS took almost a year to resolve and hundreds of hours of time. As a seller I will never use USPS.

 

[elh0102]

Oldsparky, you may be wasting your money by over-insuring. Regardless of the carrier, if approved, a claim will be paid based on "market value", which will be your purchase price, less depreciation. It will always be less than you paid for it. I'm not sure of the best strategy if the item is old, but has increased in value a lot since purchased. In that case, it might be best to just say you have no documentation of purchase price, hoping they will be guided by current value. Of course, in that case, the accumulated depreciation may knock the value way down anyway. Remember the "depreciation" is not real, merely a number they use, and likely based on an accelerated schedule. 

 

[ChRiSiS]

Oldsparky, you may be wasting your money by over-insuring. Regardless of the carrier, if approved, a claim will be paid based on "market value", which will be your purchase price, less depreciation. It will always be less than you paid for it. I'm not sure of the best strategy if the item is old, but has increased in value a lot since purchased. In that case, it might be best to just say you have no documentation of purchase price, hoping they will be guided by current value. Of course, in that case, the accumulated depreciation may knock the value way down anyway. Remember the "depreciation" is not real, merely a number they use, and likely based on an accelerated schedule.

I believe that this is generally correct, with one point of difference. If I have sold the item that I am shipping, I always insure it for the amount that I was paid. This is an objective number that can be used for valuation purposes, as long as it was an bona-fide arms-length price.

Chris

 

[WillBrayJr]

Buying/selling anything gun related using PayPal is risky business. They're very anti-gun.



The Kendallville Post Office is very anti-gun as well. They threw a huge hissy fit when I wanted to ship my Uncle a pair of 1911 grips. They refuse to ship anything with an engine too.



I took my happy rear end to Do-It Center, and use UPS. No issues as long as I'm not shipping an actual firearm.

 

[John "spysir" Blount]

Seller is responsible for delivery period. Did not buy insurance that's on the seller. Have dealt with a lost in insured usps package ($500 insurance) about 4 moth's after claim filed they paid me. I had already refunded buyer monies naturally. Proved a $900 airgun stolen bu UPS ( 4 prosecuted ) 6 month's $900 paid out to me. An amazing 4 day's later and after moving UPS delivered the stolen rifle to my new house in a loose over size box for them. As I had chased the insurance payment I called immediately. Seems as it was a theft case and recovered "after payment"(?) they had no policy to deal with it -I proffered it was now the insurance companies but...) so they "gave" it to me. Totally odd deal there but I think people actually arrested at UPS is usual too so who knows.

"OldSparkey" a an air pistol is forbidden to ship USPS they would NOT pay any claim and could(but wont) come after you for illegal shipping.

If it is not delivered they seller has not completed the deal.

John

 

[Jeffs55]

As a person that has sold hundreds of items on eBay, Gunbroker and Auction Arms I will tell you what I did in all cases that the item I shipped was not delivered. Item one: Fedex delivered a high dollar pistol to the wrong address and it was never recovered, $1000 more than 20 years ago for a reference point. I refunded the purchase price and filed a claim which was PAID. Can you believe it? Item 2: A Christmas deco item was damaged upon arrival so the recipient said. I refunded their purchase price and shipping upon them telling me. They asked when would they get a refund and I told them to check their account. They were stunned. Item 3: I shipped some pistol magazines that I am sure were stolen but anyway the buyer did not get them according to post office records. I refunded their money and filed a claim. The claim was denied by the post office because the items were gun parts and I did not possess a FFL. Remember these were pistol magazines not guns. Gun parts, parts of a gun; not the gun itself. So I lost about $400 on that one but the customer did not lose anything. So the seller is obligated to package and ship according to pre agreed upon terms. If the shipper loses the item the seller is obligated to make the buyer whole and then try to recoup the loss. In simple terms the seller puts himself at risk first is the way I do business. So remember my name when you want to buy something.