Other Canting, harmonics, or shooter error?

[Doc_pafumo]

I’m shooting at 43 meters on a -5° slope. Target: 20x20 cm card with 5 bullseyes (2 bottom, 2 top, 1 center). Rifle: FX Crown, 700 mm barrel with carbon sleeve and spacers, .22 JSB 18 gr at 870-880 fps, tuned. Setup: Huggett Astille moderator, SEB AR250 front rest, rear sandbag. Wind: 1-3 m/s.


I can shoot hole-on-hole sub-MOA groups on the first (bottom) bullseye after zeroing. However, when I switch to the upper or center bullseyes, the POI shifts, mostly in windage, even though the rifle is steady and grouping well. Could this be harmonics, canting at this distance, wind effects, or an issue with my shooting position/technique?

 

[Hateful McNasty]

Me too...

 

[EquivalentDelta]

Probably cant related if its shifting from one target to another from the same position.

There are a lot of bubble levels made just for guns, easy to mount and use.

 

[Hateful McNasty]

Did not help me . I just joked about this in another thread a few days ago ( several over the years) . I always had this with shooting multi bull targets . Center row are good but ones on left or right then top or bottoms l/r especially. Like low left bull i hit low and left .. lol

One of my "cant cante" levels



As long as i looked this up tried stuff that really dont address the problem i just think its my eyes perception or " mind tricking" me .. / optical illusion thing..lol

 

[boscoebrea]

Bubble levels,never used them. I try my best not to cant. I found out yesterday that the way I hold my rifle and the way the scope is set up,that repetitively or the way you hold the rifle is most important...for me.

 

[Hateful McNasty]

Kinda a example of my issue using multi bull target



My latest post on it

Aim line , poi, to target position

I had to fix my 50y rack and put in new tin can lid targets . Funny ive always been bad at multi bulleye targets. As usually my hits are off in the direction of the bulls position on the card .. if top left bull i tend to hit high left , center right just right .... ect .. Just like...

www.airgunnation.com

 

[JimD]

Make sure that the lens of your scope closest to your eye is adjusted well. I like to get sighted in on a target, typically at 30 yards but distance is not important IMHO. I have the gun supported so I don't have to touch it. Then I shift my head side to head and up and down and look to see if the point of aim shifts. If it does, I adjust the occular and try again. When I have it adjusted, I can shift my head and the point of aim does not move.

I think this is superior to the "make sure hour reticle is focus" approach because it is more sensitive. I suspect your head position is changing a bit on different targets and your point of aim is shifting with your head position change. Maybe not but it costs nothing to be sure.

 

[Dstrac]

Kinda a example of my issue using multi bull target

View attachment 580238

My latest post on it

Aim line , poi, to target position

I had to fix my 50y rack and put in new tin can lid targets . Funny ive always been bad at multi bulleye targets. As usually my hits are off in the direction of the bulls position on the card .. if top left bull i tend to hit high left , center right just right .... ect .. Just like...

www.airgunnation.com

Wow! the misses are so uniform and consistent. Up and to the left on the top and down to the left on the bottom. Then the right side is a mirror image, the exact opposite. Possibly how your holding the rifle? But It almost seems like it could be your optic too. An issue with distortion? Or fish eye with lenses?

 

[Hateful McNasty]

Wow! the misses are so uniform and consistent. Up and to the left on the top and down to the left on the bottom. Then the right side is a mirror image, the exact opposite. Possibly how your holding the rifle? But It almost seems like it could be your optic too. An issue with distortion? Or fish eye with lenses?

Irons mostly no optics.

 

[greenbeans]

Kinda a example of my issue using multi bull target

View attachment 580238

My latest post on it

Aim line , poi, to target position

I had to fix my 50y rack and put in new tin can lid targets . Funny ive always been bad at multi bulleye targets. As usually my hits are off in the direction of the bulls position on the card .. if top left bull i tend to hit high left , center right just right .... ect .. Just like...

www.airgunnation.com

What distance amwas this shot and are you perfectly aligned with the center target?! This is oddly consistent… does it happen with all your guns/scopes or only one?! My first guess would be scope and parallax error…

Edit: just read to the bottom and noticed you’re shooting with iron sights mostly. Now I’m guessing that your line of sight through the sights isn’t perfectly straight anymore when you love to a different target.

 

[boscoebrea]

yep,not aligned...try this ,only shoot at a target that is in the center of the paper,etc. Do that multi- times,then shoot at the left upper corner on each mulilti target,then the lower right.See if they match up to target you are showing us....I think it is your alignment of sights on rifle or your eyes...or the gravitational pull of UranusThought of something,you may be pointing the rifle,in other words your angle of aim changes for each target,Jesse of course it does;it like this,when useing open sights,the angle between the front and rear sight does not stay content,it Not like a scope,so you can not think like a scope....that is the problem ,your sight alignment is not spot on because when you pivot the angle changes,yea that's it.

 

[Berserkeley Mike]

How do you change aim to the different targets, move the rest and bag, move your seat and pivot on the bag, move the gun side to side on the rest , something else?

 

[Hateful McNasty]

How do you change aim to the different targets, move the rest and bag, move your seat and pivot on the bag, move the gun side to side on the rest , something else?

Sitting here at the bench and looking at this multi target i had throwed / shuffled around i thought of this " target blinders".

To test. Hang target then use blinders to blind out a row (s) of bulls so you only see the row your going to shoot.

Then move a blinder to the row shot to expose the next row of bulls to shoot and so on .. ( a lot of get up and walk..lol.

Maybe to see if its your eyes drifting off or distracted by any left or right up or down or whatever combo you want to try . Ya Follow?

 

[EPG]

Hi Doc,

It looks like your front rest is allowed to rotate freely when moving from target to target…

… however, your rear sandbag is stationary. Is it possible that some stiction builds up when shifting targets - the stiction getting released when your Crown recoils? Admittedly, recoil is very mild - but you are shooting precision targets…

A simple test to determine if the PoI shifts are stiction related is to take the rifle butt out of the sandbag and reset it prior to shooting new target - and note if PoI shifts is still happening…

-Ed

 

[Vana2]

Sitting here at the bench and looking at this multi target i had throwed / shuffled around i thought of this " target blinders".

To test. Hang target then use blinders to blind out a row (s) of bulls so you only see the row your going to shoot.

Then move a blinder to the row shot to expose the next row of bulls to shoot and so on .. ( a lot of get up and walk..lol.

Maybe to see if its your eyes drifting off or distracted by any left or right up or down or whatever combo you want to try . Ya Follow?

View attachment 580309
View attachment 580310

Interesting idea with the blinders.

How's you master eye? Very dominant or maybe not so much and you are getting an influence from the other eye.

When coaching shooting (archery, gun or slingshot) I'm adamant about having the target at eye level as people tend to raise/lower their point of aim by repositioning the weapon (instead of maintaining hold and bending/pivoting at the waist) and totally changing the geometry of the shot (and the point of impact).

Curious, where do you focus? Target? Front sight? Do you shift/change your focus while setting up and making the shot?

Being archery/slingshot oriented (no sights), when shooting irons, I focus where I want to hit and don't really "see" the sights.

 

[beerthief]

I’m shooting at 43 meters on a -5° slope. Target: 20x20 cm card with 5 bullseyes (2 bottom, 2 top, 1 center). Rifle: FX Crown, 700 mm barrel with carbon sleeve and spacers, .22 JSB 18 gr at 870-880 fps, tuned. Setup: Huggett Astille moderator, SEB AR250 front rest, rear sandbag. Wind: 1-3 m/s.


I can shoot hole-on-hole sub-MOA groups on the first (bottom) bullseye after zeroing. However, when I switch to the upper or center bullseyes, the POI shifts, mostly in windage, even though the rifle is steady and grouping well. Could this be harmonics, canting at this distance, wind effects, or an issue with my shooting position/technique?

Sorry to say but this sounds like it is you . I use levels on the rifle and scope . I hang a string @ 20 yards as a vertical aim point . first i hold the rifle level with a rail mounted level when that is holding level and the vertical in the scope matches the string perfectly , Then i set the bubble on the scope and recheck.

 

[HogKiller]

I'm going to agree with Jim D. You need to absolutely get the reticle focus dead on, at 43 meters it's not a big deal. Put a blank sheet of white paper out a bit and get the reticle dead on, THAT will get your Parallax nailed. Make sure your rifle is aimed at a point your can see, do not touch it, and look through the scope, you don't need a full view just the target and the reticle, then move your head a little if the reticle moves, your parallax is off. If you have an astigmatism you'll have the same issue, makes it hard to get the reticle focused perfectly. I've actually bounced back and forth between the reticle and the parallax to get the reticle perfect, sounds weird but it works for the fine tuning. I'm able to do 1 Minute of Squirrel when I'm out, 25 yards to 125 yards with my Arken scopes on my Mavericks and Raptor. Here is one of my targets I use.

 

[Hateful McNasty]

Interesting idea with the blinders.

How's you master eye? Very dominant or maybe not so much and you are getting an influence from the other eye.

When coaching shooting (archery, gun or slingshot) I'm adamant about having the target at eye level as people tend to raise/lower their point of aim by repositioning the weapon (instead of maintaining hold and bending/pivoting at the waist) and totally changing the geometry of the shot (and the point of impact).

Curious, where do you focus? Target? Front sight? Do you shift/change your focus while setting up and making the shot?

Being archery/slingshot oriented (no sights), when shooting irons, I focus where I want to hit and don't really "see" the sights.

Dominate for sure..

Like beerthief kinda pug it i lkke to windage check bug on paper with a tall vertical line . ( As you can see i dont practice what I preach all the time ..lol)


So...
First attempt (10m, irons ,daisyhp.177, multi bull)

Looks like im right ( of course I've been right as long as i can remember... So,)


One click left

See should of done the windage check first not as a afterthought.

 

[BBRemedy]

Doc Pafumo,

I've been challenged by the exact same issue with multiple air rifles. Through the process of elimination, I believe it boils down to harmonics, stiction or possible grip pressure or cheek pressure on the butt stock. I do not believe it is an optical or parallax error as I've experimented with that extensively.

Grip and cheek pressure are easy to rule out as well.

I've chased the problem extensively and am not an expert.

I tried multiple front and rear mechanical rests including the SEB pictured above and have now settled on a one piece rest that maintains the rifle's contact position with the rest in exact alignment as I aim at different bulls on the target. It also eliminates any chance of stiction. I am no longer seeing that phenomenon.

Hope this helps.

 

[HogKiller]

Doc Pafumo,

I've been challenged by the exact same issue with multiple air rifles. Through the process of elimination, I believe it boils down to harmonics, stiction or possible grip pressure or cheek pressure on the butt stock. I do not believe it is an optical or parallax error as I've experimented with that extensively.

Grip and cheek pressure are easy to rule out as well.

I've chased the problem extensively and am not an expert.

I tried multiple front and rear mechanical rests including the SEB pictured above and have now settled on a one piece rest that maintains the rifle's contact position with the rest in exact alignment as I aim at different bulls on the target. It also eliminates any chance of stiction. I am no longer seeing that phenomenon.

Hope this helps.

Not to tick you off BUT IF your premise(s) were correct absolutely nobody would be hitting anything, least of all me. THE variations are, bad scope or poorly mounted-aligned scope, poorly torqued gun, loose barrel, something in there is loose, doesn't have to be much but it happens...raises hand... Wrong air pressure, one extra molecule of air out of the muzzle and who knows what happens, especially with slugs. Barrels have to float, it is part of the harmonics of guns, any gun. I'm going to sort of give you the grip/cheek pressure but that's not affecting the gun, it's affecting your trigger pull and eye alignment, but if the gun is properly set up, meh it's good to go. If grip and cheek weld are affecting it then something is loose, not sloppy loose but not properly torqued loose. JMHO