What're your thoughts on performance? If and when pricing is a factor? What if pricing wasn't a limiting decision? Do we need to spend the big bucks for high performance? Wanted to hear thoughts and opinions everyone might have!!
Budget Build VS. Expensive Builds?!?!
- Thread starter TopGun-Airguns
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depends on what youre after ..if someone is making real performance parts that deliver for a particular gun the cost is generally going to reflect that .. for example i put 500 some odd dollars into my mrod .25, but it 'leveled up' in what it will do .. and i could keep going, i already put a boyds stock on it. i could get a high end barrel and some other things to increase accuracy, regulator etc .. at some point though that money is better spent on a rti, lcs, fx, raw, daystate, etc .. already built for you
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Depends on how you define High Performance.
By Power levels? Shot Count? Accuracy? All are different areas depending on the Shooter and what Said Shooter wants.
By Power levels? Shot Count? Accuracy? All are different areas depending on the Shooter and what Said Shooter wants.
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What are you considering building?
You can get really great performance for not much money. But you really gota know where to look, what to look for, and what platform to use.
Top tier performance usually costs a bit more. But may only be less than 10 percent (if at all) better than budget performance. Worth it? Well, quality has its own value. Materials, fit, construction, engineering. How it all comes together as a package. Ease of use, balance, weight, ease of repair, product support, parts availability. Some are fortunate enough to be able to make their own parts so some of this does not matter.
You can get really great performance for not much money. But you really gota know where to look, what to look for, and what platform to use.
Top tier performance usually costs a bit more. But may only be less than 10 percent (if at all) better than budget performance. Worth it? Well, quality has its own value. Materials, fit, construction, engineering. How it all comes together as a package. Ease of use, balance, weight, ease of repair, product support, parts availability. Some are fortunate enough to be able to make their own parts so some of this does not matter.
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No such thing as a budget build. Someone will argue this but it's either going to cost money or time which is known as 'opportunity cost'. Plus folks that say they have nothing into a build are usually including parts they have left over from another build and are not accounted for in the budget.
You might buy a budget gun, then build it, but it's not going to be cheap regardless. It always costs more than you plan for it to.
The benefits to building from a budget platform are:
You get to tinker, if you like doing that.
You get to design the final product.
You get to pay over time, if you can be patient.
You get to say "I built this".
Folks saying "what's a build" are essentially trolling, looking for an argument over nothing because they think they get to define what this hobby is about. Noone is hammer forging their own barrels so call it what you want. Just ignore them. An assembly is a build.
If you have a decent budget and you want to shoot instead of tinker, you should look to see if there is a respected manufacturer or retailer that sells exactly what you want, already built. Review UNSPONSORED videos as well as sponsored. Consume as much information on each candidate as possible. Make sure their customer support is well documented and top notch. Ask questions BEFORE ordering.
In my opinion.
You might buy a budget gun, then build it, but it's not going to be cheap regardless. It always costs more than you plan for it to.
The benefits to building from a budget platform are:
You get to tinker, if you like doing that.
You get to design the final product.
You get to pay over time, if you can be patient.
You get to say "I built this".
Folks saying "what's a build" are essentially trolling, looking for an argument over nothing because they think they get to define what this hobby is about. Noone is hammer forging their own barrels so call it what you want. Just ignore them. An assembly is a build.
If you have a decent budget and you want to shoot instead of tinker, you should look to see if there is a respected manufacturer or retailer that sells exactly what you want, already built. Review UNSPONSORED videos as well as sponsored. Consume as much information on each candidate as possible. Make sure their customer support is well documented and top notch. Ask questions BEFORE ordering.
In my opinion.
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The question possesses some vagueness. I don't believe thumper was being a troll but I could easily be wrong.
It would be rare for a setup to truly perform at an exceptional level and also be cheap. But it's not something I haven't experienced. Generally, most of my guns end up being pretty expensive BTW. Whether they started cheap or not. The worst offender being an expensive gun that started extremely cheap in the quality department.
It would be rare for a setup to truly perform at an exceptional level and also be cheap. But it's not something I haven't experienced. Generally, most of my guns end up being pretty expensive BTW. Whether they started cheap or not. The worst offender being an expensive gun that started extremely cheap in the quality department.
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But as I said, if you didn't spend money to get great performance, you almost surely spent time. Otherwise, tell us all how and we will all have easily obtained, cheap, high performance rifles.
It wasn't vague at all. The guy is asking about opinions between building from a budget platform or buying a high dollar gun, and whether or not we can get high performance for a small investment. It's only complicated if someone wants it to be.
In my opinion.
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If that's the question, then I'd start with a quality higher priced rifle. And with the right one, you wouldn't need a "build".
Done the cheap route more than once and never get much out of it in the satisfaction or value part of it.
But then again, I'm the kinda guy that will cut and rechoke and thread the barrel on my $1500 guns. I try and make everything how I want it, regardless of what it costs.
It's all about what you want out of the hobby I guess.
What I DON'T want, is an expensive gun plagued with QC issues and flimsy build quality. And here's where I bite my tongue before I start talking about a certain brand, from a certain country, that happens to be Sweden.
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The more time I spent in the hobby the more I agree with all of this. I am also a "tinkerer" or person who likes to modify everything regardless.
As far as I can tell they've relaxed their stance on calling out FX here which is great because people deserve to know. There will of course be people whose feelings get hurt because they spent $$$$ on one and don't want to have it "rubbed in". This brand is exactly why I say watch videos that are unsponsored because an unnamed channel that heavily promoted FX is now realizing how much of other people's money they wasted by hyping a product that just didn't live up to that hype. Not to mention all the legal stuff happening now and members guns that are probably lost forever after being sent in for service.
I have a LW Marauder that has taken just about all I can muster to NOT spend a bunch of money on, because I know it can easily go north of $1500 and that will get me a "high end" gun, however I do strive to make as many improvements as possible by only spending time and by appreciating it for what it is. It has proven to be a successful approach for me thus far.
On the budget side, I have an Icon that I got on the $129 special and have modded to get 40fpe for no more money, but it isn't an accurate gun in my book. Just a fun project that shoots well enough to hunt at sub 50yds. Caveat emptor, I do have a Barra 1100z barrel on the way as we speak, to see if I can improve the accuracy, which brings the total up to $164 spent.
I've never spent over a grand on any platform but if I did, and I probably will eventually, it would be a Taipan Veteran 2. I see several other brands that seem to be worth the investment now as well.
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I don’t think he was asking about building a budget gun vs buying an expensive one. I think he was asking if you need to spend a ton of money to get top notch performance. For example. I have a P15 I built. I call it my Chaipan. I have roughly $1,500 in it between parts, machining and barrel. Could someone match what I have cheaper? Maybe a guy doesn’t buy a TJ. Doesn’t install a Huma but works his reg over and gets it to be rock solid. Doesn’t machine a whole new gland with more plenum space but finds that a cheap plenum extension from someone works. Maybe he was able to find the perfect metric spring to work with his hammer and his reg setting. But I had to machine my own lighter hammer that accepts I much wider variety of standard diameter springs. Do I think someone could build a budget P15 that can compete with mine? Yes and no. It might be as fast, but it won’t be as efficient. It might shoot a pellet or slug well, but will it do both as good as mine? He shouldn’t hold his breath. So I think an unlimited $$ build on a cheap gun will always edge a econo build. But is it necessary to achieve what the owner wants? That’s the true question.
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For practical purpose, at practical distances for an airgun? It is well known that budget builds perform. Do they retain value, are they pleasant to handle, etc.? To try and compare them to much more expensive guns is silly and impractical… We understand that “practicality“ isn’t the allure of this hobby to many. It’s simply fun to shoot and helps keep the boy in us all alive…
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Budget vs. Expensive pellet gun “build”…
My first PCP - Umarex Gauntlet Gen1 .177.
Paid $195 new. Added shorter shroud, thick carbon fiber tube over barrel, did a bunch of trigger polishing and installed $75 rudimentary “2-stage” trigger upgrade.
Otherwise completely stock - regulator and hammer spring as delivered new.
Shoots Crosman Premier 10.5g domes EXTREMELY well - a budget pellet.
So this sub $400 build - when you add a Sightron SII 36x target scope shot 198, 196, 197 consecutively in the 30 Yard Challenge (1/8” 10-ring, .04” X) last time I shot it - with Wal*Mart (Crosman 10.5g) pellets - straight from the tin.
So my view is that for pellet gun distances - which I view as 50 yards and in - you reach the point of diminishing returns very quickly when you start spending $1,000+ on an airgun - and believe me, I’ve got many $1k+ rifles.
I’ll also say that from my experience, diabolo pellets seem to perform out to about 80 yards - regardless of .22, .25, .30. Beyond that, things get a bit wonky, as I believe you are starting to stretch the limits of the projectile.
So, you can spend $5,000+ to obtain a rifle that can win competitions shooting pellets at 100 yards - if you can shoot it as well as its potential. However, if you are realistic about why you are shooting pellets and the distances that you plan to shoot them… you can obtain 95% of “state-of-the-art” at a very reasonable cost.
BTW, my .177 Gauntlet is 4 years old and has not leaked or required any o-rings to be replaced to date. No issues whatsoever.
Doesn’t stop me for having $15k into airguns - cause its a hobby that I love - but its not necessary to invest thousands to get great performance.
I offer this advice to help all the new enthusiasts entering the hobby. Be realistic regarding your shooting distance with an air rifle. If you determine that 80% of the time its 50 yards and in - you can get great performance in a rifle for less than $500 with the current technology.
-Ed
My first PCP - Umarex Gauntlet Gen1 .177.
Paid $195 new. Added shorter shroud, thick carbon fiber tube over barrel, did a bunch of trigger polishing and installed $75 rudimentary “2-stage” trigger upgrade.
Otherwise completely stock - regulator and hammer spring as delivered new.
Shoots Crosman Premier 10.5g domes EXTREMELY well - a budget pellet.
So this sub $400 build - when you add a Sightron SII 36x target scope shot 198, 196, 197 consecutively in the 30 Yard Challenge (1/8” 10-ring, .04” X) last time I shot it - with Wal*Mart (Crosman 10.5g) pellets - straight from the tin.
So my view is that for pellet gun distances - which I view as 50 yards and in - you reach the point of diminishing returns very quickly when you start spending $1,000+ on an airgun - and believe me, I’ve got many $1k+ rifles.
I’ll also say that from my experience, diabolo pellets seem to perform out to about 80 yards - regardless of .22, .25, .30. Beyond that, things get a bit wonky, as I believe you are starting to stretch the limits of the projectile.
So, you can spend $5,000+ to obtain a rifle that can win competitions shooting pellets at 100 yards - if you can shoot it as well as its potential. However, if you are realistic about why you are shooting pellets and the distances that you plan to shoot them… you can obtain 95% of “state-of-the-art” at a very reasonable cost.
BTW, my .177 Gauntlet is 4 years old and has not leaked or required any o-rings to be replaced to date. No issues whatsoever.
Doesn’t stop me for having $15k into airguns - cause its a hobby that I love - but its not necessary to invest thousands to get great performance.
I offer this advice to help all the new enthusiasts entering the hobby. Be realistic regarding your shooting distance with an air rifle. If you determine that 80% of the time its 50 yards and in - you can get great performance in a rifle for less than $500 with the current technology.
-Ed
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For me, shooting at 30 yards.I expect my springers and PCP to do 3/8-1/2" ,oh one won't do it.,none cost me more than $600 to buy or to build.I rather spend money making my gun Mine and it can be done, funny some people equate money to performance, which does have a lot of truth to it.I know my Crosmanm 1720,1701 and Challenger all are capable of great accuracy. So are my English and German springers. So money can buy you a gun capable of great accuracy, but you are the one pulling the trigger.
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not completely sure I understand the questions. Here is my humble opinions as I attempt to answer them.
Thoughts on high performance. Good.
If and when pricing is a factor. Always
If it was not a factor. Would get the most and best.
Do we need to spend big bucks for high performance. Yes. Duh.
Huh, not so hard after all.
IMHO
Cheers
Doc
Thoughts on high performance. Good.
If and when pricing is a factor. Always
If it was not a factor. Would get the most and best.
Do we need to spend big bucks for high performance. Yes. Duh.
Huh, not so hard after all.
IMHO
Cheers
Doc
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Seems that we need to define some of the terms I highlighted in your post.
Define what you mean by those terms and then this thread may start to mean something to someone... anyone. (smile)
Anyway...
All my best!
Kerry
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I also looked at the title. Budget builds vs Expensive builds. My Prod was a budget build. My P15 was a more costly build. My Impacts were very expensive builds. Like EPG said, it all depends on your goals. High performance is in the eye of the beholder.
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At this point in my life, the only time I am really considering a budget oriented airgun is if I expect it to be a truck gun or a gun that I will leave at a different location for plinking that may not be secure. I have a few rental properties and I have flipped houses in the past and when I do that I like to leave a few airguns on site for plinking, but nothing that I would miss too much if there was a burglary.
Most of these budget guns end up being the reject guns that I just wasn’t quite happy with. My current truck gun is a Gamo Magnum Swarm with the Swarm mechanism removed, and it’s hard to call it a “build”, because it’s bone stock.
When I was younger my budget was what I could afford to spend, but if the funds allowed it I still bought nice stuff. There was simply a lot less of it.
Most of these budget guns end up being the reject guns that I just wasn’t quite happy with. My current truck gun is a Gamo Magnum Swarm with the Swarm mechanism removed, and it’s hard to call it a “build”, because it’s bone stock.
When I was younger my budget was what I could afford to spend, but if the funds allowed it I still bought nice stuff. There was simply a lot less of it.
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In my mind "build" could mean anything. Like in car culture where idiots cut up their suspension and frames and slam their cars on the ground with almost no tire contact with the road. Slap a loud muffler and a bad paint job on it and call it a "build". Other guys might build a custom frame, some.even make their own engines.... much the same here. For some guys a build is literally from scratch. And depending on the individual could be anything inbetween.
If you want cheap accuracy and power. The snow peak guns can deliver. I got a 25 cal pp800 for about $150 and it is exceedingly accurate. Got a "15 barrel for it as well for next to nothing, and it drives tacks too. A lot of p35 owners, notos, pp700, ect owners have very similar experiences. Triggers on most if not all of these can be made quite good as well.
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