Black wolf prices

[rigbymauser]

The price for brainstorming and development, marketing, setting up QC system and control plans, new production and assembly system, teaching co workers, contracts with subcontractors to secure supplychain etc etc. All these things doesn`t do them by them self. Some humans has to be paid to do all these things. And thats before any gun has even left the factory. All this has to added to the gun.

To compare the Mauser factory in Oberndorf had over 450 production inspections on their K98 before leaving the factory for combat. Today even these guns were made in millions they are still good and is attractive to collectors if in prime condition.

I have seen threads with over 20 year old Daystates because they work and are accurate. They are made from fairly HQ components and has a timesless design. Today they still keep a price and the secondhand marked.

 

[Franklink]

Not the point.

The points being

"Finer things" claim was defined simply by the cost and not by some feature or function. There is nothing about air guns that can be defined as "finer things" and the wine being an example of something that has a definable characteristics that are "finer things".

Guns like Black Wolf or Impact are better at putting a pellet down range in a tighter group. That group is only marginally better than the current crop of sub $1,000 guns like the M60B/Zelos or Throne 2. A 1/4 inch improvement in groups costs $2,000. But that 1/4 inch improvement requires skills that few people actually have. Unless you are a competitive shooter and/or practice your form constantly that 1/4 inch tighter group most likely does not exist.

Then there is the AirForce Condor. Been around for decades. Same issue as above, almost as accurate as guns costing 2,000 more. All without needing to have to "tune" anything beyond pellet weights and a simple hammer spring preload adjustment. Almost impossible to break, as simple a design as exists and modification only takes a few minutes.

What do you get for that $2,000 extra?

I've clearly stated that if you are a competitive shooter then the value proposition does not apply. If that is what it takes, in addition to your skills, to win then that is what you need. That is specifically for what that gun is designed. Not applicable to this discussion.

My point has always been that the 90% that are not competitive shooters buying guns of the $2,500 or more price range does not make sense.

Frankly, most of that 90% either never had or no longer have (like me) the skills to take advantage of the incremental improvement those guns provide in accuracy and consistency. Keeping those skills takes a lot of time, effort and money. Life has a nasty habit of getting in the way of staying on top of those skills.

Air guns provide a way to keep some of those skill from complete atrophy. You dont have to go to the !@#$% range...

I am a competitive shooter, mostly field target, and can absolutely attest to the fact that it's easier to win with a high quality ($$$$$$) gun than a low quality ($) one.

The difference is a more predictable trigger. The difference is a higher quality finish on all the components, and I'm not talking just blueing, but rather treating the metal of the sears for example, to keep the edges crisp so the trigger stays a good trigger. The difference is not using stamped parts. The difference is not using pot metal. The difference is a smoother cocking mechanism. The difference is the ability of a gun to hold poi. The difference is the guns capacity to be consistent. The difference is ergonomics. The difference is quality magazine design (if magazines are your thing). The difference is the ability to get replacement parts (aftermarket support).

On this we agree... If somebody is just wanting to get drunk, they're not going to care if they're drinking boxed wine, or that fine stuff you mentioned earlier. BUT, if someone is an enjoyer of fine wine, someone who appreciates high quality, someone who can tell the difference between boxed wine and high end stuff, well then they're just not gonna be happy with wine. Same concept for airguns...the dude that's just interested about throwing lead, and not too concerned about 100 yard moa accuracy or perfect scores in a field target match? The e dude that likes to roll a soup can around in the dirt and is perfectly pleased with minute of center mass on the bird feeder marauding squirrel at 30 yards? Yeah, he doesn't care, nor appreciate how much higher quality high end is over budget. Sure, they both shoot a projectile. Just like how any vehicle can get you from point A to point B, or how any wine can give somebody a buzz.

I think the basis of this whole discussion can be summed up with the following......
I don't drink. You could place the most expensive, finest wine in the world in front of me, next to a glass of the cheapest boxed wine you could find, and I wouldn't be able to tell you which is which.

 

[Ratzy]

The price for brainstorming and development, marketing, setting up QC system and control plans, new production and assembly system, teaching co workers, contracts with subcontractors to secure supplychain etc etc. All these things doesn`t do them by them self. Some humans has to be paid to do all these things. And thats before any gun has even left the factory. All this has to added to the gun.

To compare the Mauser factory in Oberndorf had over 450 production inspections on their K98 before leaving the factory for combat. Today even these guns were made in millions they are still good and is attractive to collectors if in prime condition.

I have seen threads with over 20 year old Daystates because they work and are accurate. They are made from fairly HQ components and has a timesless design. Today they still keep a price and the secondhand marked.

I have a 20+ years old A.H. Hartley Stalker Tiger 10 that is as accurate as any rifle I own. I originally bought it because it is one of the most esthetically pleasing rifles I have ever seen. Only thing better looking is my, also 20 years old, Falcon Hawk FN-19.

 

[Ratzy]

I am a competitive shooter, mostly field target, and can absolutely attest to the fact that it's easier to win with a high quality ($$$$$$) gun than a low quality ($) one.

The difference is a more predictable trigger. The difference is a higher quality finish on all the components, and I'm not talking just blueing, but rather treating the metal of the sears for example, to keep the edges crisp so the trigger stays a good trigger. The difference is not using stamped parts. The difference is not using pot metal. The difference is a smoother cocking mechanism. The difference is the ability of a gun to hold poi. The difference is the guns capacity to be consistent. The difference is ergonomics. The difference is quality magazine design (if magazines are your thing). The difference is the ability to get replacement parts (aftermarket support).

On this we agree... If somebody is just wanting to get drunk, they're not going to care if they're drinking boxed wine, or that fine stuff you mentioned earlier. BUT, if someone is an enjoyer of fine wine, someone who appreciates high quality, someone who can tell the difference between boxed wine and high end stuff, well then they're just not gonna be happy with wine. Same concept for airguns...the dude that's just interested about throwing lead, and not too concerned about 100 yard moa accuracy or perfect scores in a field target match? The e dude that likes to roll a soup can around in the dirt and is perfectly pleased with minute of center mass on the bird feeder marauding squirrel at 30 yards? Yeah, he doesn't care, nor appreciate how much higher quality high end is over budget. Sure, they both shoot a projectile. Just like how any vehicle can get you from point A to point B, or how any wine can give somebody a buzz.

I think the basis of this whole discussion can be summed up with the following......
I don't drink. You could place the most expensive, finest wine in the world in front of me, next to a glass of the cheapest boxed wine you could find, and I wouldn't be able to tell you which is which.

I keep saying competitive shooting is "buy what wins" and cost is not as important.

I just had a problem with someone calling expensive air rifles "finer things". When pushed defined "finer things" by price. Keeping up with the joneses is a real thing for a lot of people. They do not evaluate what they are buying for fit or function. They buy based upon the price gratifying their ego. If it is expensive it must be good.

I probably should have used the difference between my commuter car and my driving car.

 

[cavedweller]

I keep saying competitive shooting is "buy what wins" and cost is not as important.

I just had a problem with someone calling expensive air rifles "finer things". When pushed defined "finer things" by price. Keeping up with the joneses is a real thing for a lot of people. They do not evaluate what they are buying for fit or function. They buy based upon the price gratifying their ego. If it is expensive it must be good.

I probably should have used the difference between my commuter car and my driving car.

@Ratzy = semantics sir. When I bring a an air gun to shoulder, it’s difficult to define all the subtle nuances that create the overall experience.
Of recent, I have had the pleasure of helping a new to Airguns 80 year old not only select his first Airgun but also to help him acquire it.
In my Airgun lair I have 20 very different Airguns-but in terms of semantics, they are really all the same (functionally) in a generic sense.
My lowest end Airgun, defined by price, is a Sheridan pumper but my 80 year friend had no interest in pumping anything so we started with a very nice walnut Marauder FT model. Price wise, my highest end airgun (to me) is a Thomas Carbine.
My in between(s) include: Steyr’s, Daystates, Brococks, Weihrauchs, Anschutz, Walther, BSA, Air Arms, some are traditional platforms and some are bullpups, some metal, some composite, and so on.
My newest shooter was not concerned with price, in fact it was never discussed, I simply let him spend time with each Airgun, holding, shouldering and shooting from a bench, off hand and seated with sticks… one by one he went through them all and in the end he said
“I like all of them but most are too heavy, except for that Redwolf one in the fancy stock but I don’t know about electronics.”
hmmm?
I asked him if he was open to an experiment of sorts. I told him I thought I knew the perfect Airgun for him BUT we would have to order it and wait. A surprise of sorts! I also told him if he didn’t like it, I’d buy it from him or he could buy any of my other airguns he had sampled except my Thomas. He agreed and Three months later his .177 Blackwolf in a basic carbon colored stock arrived.
When he opened the box, fondled and shouldered the air rifle, his smile told me everything I needed to know.
The 6.8 lbs of a svelte shaped high tech Airgun fit “him” perfectly.
Mind you, we never discussed a price. We did the same thing with scopes.
He was concerned about a warranty and maintenance because he was not handy - so when I told him his wolf had a 5 year warranty he cracked an even bigger grin and when I told him his scope had a no question lifetime warranty he said ONE and DONE Sir!

Point being - when he had a choice and money was not a consideration, he chose a Blackwolf because HE truly liked it! He did not assign value and quality to the cost... his value was based on what he liked and the way it made him feel while he was using it... this type of value can not be determined by cost alone. Not sorry about the photo dump... it was to ensure we had a proper sampling of what types of airguns he had to choose between.

 

[Ratzy]

A Lamborghini and a Prius gets you from point A to point B. The journey is a bit more enjoyable with one than the other.

Yes, covered that in my first sentence describing things that do have "finer things"

The point being, again, there is no feature or function inherent in air guns that could be defined as "finer things". The poster that wrote that defined "finer things" simply something being more expensive.

 

[Ratzy]

I am a competitive shooter, mostly field target, and can absolutely attest to the fact that it's easier to win with a high quality ($$$$$$) gun than a low quality ($) one.

The difference is a more predictable trigger. The difference is a higher quality finish on all the components, and I'm not talking just blueing, but rather treating the metal of the sears for example, to keep the edges crisp so the trigger stays a good trigger. The difference is not using stamped parts. The difference is not using pot metal. The difference is a smoother cocking mechanism. The difference is the ability of a gun to hold poi. The difference is the guns capacity to be consistent. The difference is ergonomics. The difference is quality magazine design (if magazines are your thing). The difference is the ability to get replacement parts (aftermarket support).

On this we agree... If somebody is just wanting to get drunk, they're not going to care if they're drinking boxed wine, or that fine stuff you mentioned earlier. BUT, if someone is an enjoyer of fine wine, someone who appreciates high quality, someone who can tell the difference between boxed wine and high end stuff, well then they're just not gonna be happy with wine. Same concept for airguns...the dude that's just interested about throwing lead, and not too concerned about 100 yard moa accuracy or perfect scores in a field target match? The e dude that likes to roll a soup can around in the dirt and is perfectly pleased with minute of center mass on the bird feeder marauding squirrel at 30 yards? Yeah, he doesn't care, nor appreciate how much higher quality high end is over budget. Sure, they both shoot a projectile. Just like how any vehicle can get you from point A to point B, or how any wine can give somebody a buzz.

I think the basis of this whole discussion can be summed up with the following......
I don't drink. You could place the most expensive, finest wine in the world in front of me, next to a glass of the cheapest boxed wine you could find, and I wouldn't be able to tell you which is which.

Actually if you have functioning taste buds you would clearly note a significant difference. Whether you like the taste is a whole other subject.

 

[cavedweller]

Yes, covered that in my first sentence describing things that do have "finer things"

The point being, again, there is no feature or function inherent in air guns that could be defined as "finer things". The poster that wrote that defined "finer things" simply something being more expensive.

I own both casio and rolex watches... i find the casio a "finer" timepiece and it gets worn more often because i am very rough on watches and i also don't like wearing something i worry about getting me mugged. Meh... Someone to love, Something to do, Something to look forward to... these are the only TRUE finer things in life as they are what bring us joy... things and money, not so much. Now if you get to shoot your Blackwolf with the love of your life, while talking about your next airgun vacation...... well then!

 

[Ratzy]

@Ratzy = semantics sir. When I bring a an air gun to shoulder, it’s difficult to define all the subtle nuances that create the overall experience.
Of recent, I have had the pleasure of helping a new to Airguns 80 year old not only select his first Airgun but also to help him acquire it.
In my Airgun lair I have 20 very different Airguns-but in terms of semantics, they are really all the same (functionally) and in a generic sense. My lowest end Airgun, defined by price, is a very nice walnut Marauder FT model. My highest end, price wise, is a Thomas, and in between these I have Steyr’s, Daystate, Brocock, Weihrauch, Anschutz, Walther, some traditional platforms and some bullpups, some metal, some composite, and so on.
My newest shooter was not concerned with price, in fact it was never discussed, I simply let him spend time with each Airgun, holding, shouldering and shooting from a bench, off hand and seated with sticks… one by one he went through them all and in the end he said “I like all of them but most are too heavy, except for that Redwolf one in the fancy stock but I don’t know about electronics.” hmmm? I asked him if he was open to an experiment of sorts. I told him I think I knew the perfect Airgun for him BUT we would have to order it and wait. I also told him if he didn’t like it, I’d buy it from him or he could buy any of my other airguns he had sampled. He agreed and Three months later his .177 Blackwolf in a basic carbon colored stock arrived and when he opened the box and shouldered it his smile told me everything I needed to know. The 6.8 lbs of svelte shaped Airgun fit “him” perfectly. Mind you, we never discussed a price. We did the same thing with scopes. He was concerned about a warranty and maintenance because he was not handy so when I told him his wolf had a 5 year warranty he cracked an even bigger grin and when I told him his scope had a no question lifetime warranty he said ONE and DONE Sir!
Point being - when he had a choice and the money was not a consideration, he chose a Blackwolf because HE liked it!

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I've never said that the high end guns are not better. I've made a point more than once that in accuracy they are superior. Although, given how many threads I see concerning issues with them their complexity is not a plus for many owners.

My point continues to be that they are not superior enough to warrant a $2,000 price differential. Black Wolf is 4x the price of a Umarex Zelos or Reximex Throne 2. Fit, form, function differences between them is minimal.

There is an economics "test" where people assign value to the features of an object. When the stated price of the object is high then the features are assigned higher value than the lesser priced object. Even when the description of the features are identical or the lower priced are better.

That hypothetical "gotcha" was a perfect example of how a significant number of people see price as the definition of "finer things". We live in a consumer economy and corporations count on that type of thinking.
"It is new, it is shiny, it is expensive"
Sells out.

 

[Ratzy]

I own both casio and rolex watches... i find the casio a "finer" timepiece and it gets worn more often because i am very rough on watches and i also don't like wearing something i worry about getting me mugged. Meh... Someone to love, Something to do, Something to look forward to... these are the only TRUE finer things in life as they are what bring us joy... things and money, not so much. Now if you get to shoot your Blackwolf with the love of your life, while talking about your next airgun vacation...... well then!

*sigh*
Yes, there is a fine set of differences between the Casio and the Rolex that clearly delineate them. Ergo "finer things". The Casio is probably a plastic digital and the Rolex gold mechanical. That clear delineation does not exist between some of the modern sub $1000 air rifles and their $3000 brethren.

The point STILL is that there is not enough difference between a Zelos and a Black Wolf to warrant costing 4x the Zelos for the non-competive shooter.

 

[cavedweller]

*sigh*
Yes, there is a fine set of differences between the Casio and the Rolex that clearly delineate them. Ergo "finer things". The Casio is probably a plastic digital and the Rolex gold mechanical. That clear delineation does not exist between some of the modern sub $1000 air rifles and their $3000 brethren.

The point STILL is that there is not enough difference between a Zelos and a Black Wolf to warrant costing 4x the Zelos for the non-competive shooter.

Apparently you are missing the most significant point in a discussion of a things value. The difference in or perceived increase in value, to even a non competitive shooter, is not inherent too construction cost, but rather to the value assigned to the "thing" by it's owner or in some cases the people desiring it. For example... The Butt or shoulder interface on guns can be "zero as in the end of a wooden stock only - like my lovely Sheridan pumpers" or several hundred dollars as depicted in photo. Same for palm risers aka hamsters.

 

[Ratzy]

Apparently you are missing the most significant point in a discussion of a things value. The difference in or perceived increase in value, to even a non competitive shooter, is not inherent too construction cost, but rather to the value assigned to the "thing" by it's owner or in some cases the people desiring it. For example... The Butt or shoulder interface on guns can be "zero as in the end of a wooden stock only - like my lovely Sheridan pumpers" or several hundred dollars as depicted in photo. Same for palm risers aka hamsters.

I am very conversant in economics. It was my minor in college.

Your examples have all been things that are easily defined as "finer things" not because of their price but because they actually have significant material, fit, form and function greater than the simpler example. As a consequence their intrinsic value is greater.

All of which I have never disagreed with.

Application of value outside of fit, form and function (defined variables) is arbitrary. Given 2 items that have the same defined variables the assigned value to the features is almost always greater for the higher priced item. Regardless of how the features are described

People believe just costing more makes something better. Regardless of any other varible.

Corporations take full advantage of that mindset. FX is great at that with their incremental upgrade process. They count on the repeat buyers. Couple tweaks and the new model is ready. Then the people who just spent $2500 last year will spend $2700 this year to be on the "cutting edge" and own "finer things"

 

[jps2486]

I was hoping my Physicians Assistant son would buy one for his aging father’s 80th birthday…
No luck.
He is going on a cruise.
Note: I didn’t get one of those either.

Spend his inheritance. That's what I do.

 

[jps2486]

I jumped off the cliff and bought a Impact M3 at the pinnacle of popularity.

In the long run, there will be a better one next year, and a corvette will be way more fun.

Get a notos, and 10,000 pellets and still have a down payment on a C8

The M3 is a fine rifle. I use mine for 100 yd BR shooting. I likes AEA 45 gr pellets. I have not succumbed to the urge to fiddle fart with all of the knobs on this thing. Just enough to adjust the velocity to the sweet spot of 885 fps. The only significant difference between this and the M4 is that they eliminated the first reg which you can do on the M3 if you feel it's an improvement. I didn't. I have no desire to buy an M4 because it won't do anything any better.

 

[Ratzy]

Spend his inheritance. That's what I do.

No kids, but the Niece and Nephew just point out that I'm well past retirement, still working and make more money than they do. So they just ignore my birthday and Christmas lists.

 

[Ratzy]

The M3 is a fine rifle. I use mine for 100 yd BR shooting. I likes AEA 45 gr pellets. I have not succumbed to the urge to fiddle fart with all of the knobs on this thing. Just enough to adjust the velocity to the sweet spot of 885 fps. The only significant difference between this and the M4 is that they eliminated the first reg which you can do on the M3 if you feel it's an improvement. I didn't. I have no desire to buy an M4 because it won't do anything any better.

Cmon, you have to buy the M4, the Joneses got one and you must keep up. What will the neighbors think ?

 

[blackdog899]

Two, maybe three years ago was the first time in my life I truly bought something
that could be described as “ finer things” . I got into astrophotography and ended
up buying nine I think Takahashi telescopes. There may be a couple equal makers
but none subjectively better. The only way I could justify these purchases to myself
is I found a store in Japan that would sell to the US. Total savings with shipping and
import duty was 35% to 45% less than the authorized Takahashi dealer in Texas.
When word got around on the Cloudy Nights forum the US dealer complained and
this Japan store could no longer sell here. I made the point during a discussion that
Takahashi sold 9 scopes it would have otherwise not sold, plus all the accessories.
This is fact, I would not have bought any at US prices.
So now my next hobby “THIS” . You can see I’m much more frugal with the Airguns
and all the vast accessories needed to partake. There won’t be a Blackwolf. That gun
especially, I find it’s price to be really whacked out. I do take in future resale value
of hobby purchases and I see that gun as being a big looser. Don’t get me wrong I
don’t mind if I spend most of the purchase price just to enjoy the gun, telescope,
motorcycle, boat, camera, sports car, guitar, stereo equipment… ahh that’s about it.
I’m a firm believer in Buy High Sell Low……Haa !

 

[greenbeans]

I am very conversant in economics. It was my minor in college.

Your examples have all been things that are easily defined as "finer things" not because of their price but because they actually have significant material, fit, form and function greater than the simpler example. As a consequence their intrinsic value is greater.

All of which I have never disagreed with.

Application of value outside of fit, form and function (defined variables) is arbitrary. Given 2 items that have the same defined variables the assigned value to the features is almost always greater for the higher priced item. Regardless of how the features are described

People believe just costing more makes something better. Regardless of any other varible.

Corporations take full advantage of that mindset. FX is great at that with their incremental upgrade process. They count on the repeat buyers. Couple tweaks and the new model is ready. Then the people who just spent $2500 last year will spend $2700 this year to be on the "cutting edge" and own "finer things"

Since you minored in economics, you’ll appreciate that (i) value is subjective and (ii) incremental value/use decreases (including the incremental additional use of additional $).

Since watches and wine have been used: Rolex vs. Vacheron vs. Patek. Big difference between those even if they’re the same material etc and all together more or less the same thing. “Fine things” vs. “finer fine things”?! Nay, just a higher subjective value/use for some people. Same with a nice Rousseau vs. DRC. That higher perceived value may have something to do with exclusivity driven by pricing. But it may also simply be looks, individual taste, something “feeling” better than the other. Or with the amount of disposable income and that one person may be willing to spent that 2k for the addition 1/4inch reduction in groups just encause that 2k is pocket change for them. Or because they get a lot of personal satisfaction (i.e., value) out of the ability to shot 1/4 better groups or whatever it is that makes them buy a BW. That may not be sufficient incremental value to justify 2k for YOU. But for someone else it apparently is. I guess the opposition you’re facing in this discussion is because you argue that there is “one” value of a given thing valid for all, Hence, you’re essentially saying whoever buys a BW is being taken for a ride. Not (necessarily) true though.

As another example, some people spend 10s of thousands on speakers and other audio equipment and swear that it’s worth it because of sound quality. I’d never even think about doing so, definitely not “worth it”. For me, that is. Seems like a fairly graspable concept…

 

[Franklink]

....

My point continues to be that they are not superior enough to warrant a $2,000 price differential. Black Wolf is 4x the price of a Umarex Zelos or Reximex Throne 2. Fit, form, function differences between them is minimal.
....

YOU feel this way, that doesn't mean that others agree. And that's why $3-4k + airguns sell.

Some people struggle to understand that a perspective different than their own is even a possibility. But we're all individuals.

You buy your expensive wine and enjoy it, and appreciate it. And guys that like to buy expensive airguns will buy them, and enjoy them, and appreciate them.

You trying to tell those of us that have experienced the difference between a high end and low end airgun that there is no difference, would be the same thing as us trying to tell you that there is no difference between boxed and fine wine. For those that are capable of noting the difference, there is indeed a difference.

 

[blackdog899]

Since you minored in economics, you’ll appreciate that (i) value is subjective and (ii) incremental value/use decreases (including the incremental additional use of additional $).

Since watches and wine have been used: Rolex vs. Vacheron vs. Patek. Big difference between those even if they’re the same material etc and all together more or less the same thing. “Fine things” vs. “finer fine things”?! Nay, just a higher subjective value/use for some people. Same with a nice Rousseau vs. DRC. That higher perceived value may have something to do with exclusivity driven by pricing. But it may also simply be looks, individual taste, something “feeling” better than the other. Or with the amount of disposable income and that one person may be willing to spent that 2k for the addition 1/4inch reduction in groups just encause that 2k is pocket change for them. Or because they get a lot of personal satisfaction (i.e., value) out of the ability to shot 1/4 better groups or whatever it is that makes them buy a BW. That may not be sufficient incremental value to justify 2k for YOU. But for someone else it apparently is. I guess the opposition you’re facing in this discussion is because you argue that there is “one” value of a given thing valid for all, Hence, you’re essentially saying whoever buys a BW is being taken for a ride. Not (necessarily) true though.

As another example, some people spend 10s of thousands on speakers and other audio equipment and swear that it’s worth it because of sound quality. I’d never even think about doing so, definitely not “worth it”. For me, that is. Seems like a fairly graspable concept…

One thing about the audio equipment is the sound like the wine is in the mind of the beholder.
The Blackwolf 1/4 inch less groups is quantifiable. It may or may not shoot better than your $2000
cheaper RAW or FX or Taipan or dare I say Umarex