Tuning Best Weihrauch HW97 tuning kit?
- Thread starter peaceful_ruler
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I only have experience with V-Mach sub12 in my HW97 .177. I'm pretty well satisfied with it. I don't think they're in business anymore, shame.
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From the ones I've used personally,
Air Rifle Headquarters.
They offer a kit for right at 12fpe and another for full power.
These discussions are pretty pointless if no one lists any info for why they think one kit is better than the other.
So here's my take:
The ARH kits have more room to use a larger spring vs Vortek, whose dual guide takes up too much room in the piston. The ARH kits tend to cock easier and shoot smoother due to this.
The Vortek has a soft cheese steel outer guide, that adds extra and unnecessary metal-to-metal friction with the inside of the piston.
ARH has been making kits longer than the rest, and have a better track record of reliability. Search this forum alone, and you'll see people having issues with the Vortek kits recently.
Almost all of the real tuners that put their reputation on the line use ARH parts. Paul Watts being the most well known, and well regarded by many.
There's my two cents, with an explanation rather than a simple one word answer. Make of it what you will.
Air Rifle Headquarters.
They offer a kit for right at 12fpe and another for full power.
These discussions are pretty pointless if no one lists any info for why they think one kit is better than the other.
So here's my take:
The ARH kits have more room to use a larger spring vs Vortek, whose dual guide takes up too much room in the piston. The ARH kits tend to cock easier and shoot smoother due to this.
The Vortek has a soft cheese steel outer guide, that adds extra and unnecessary metal-to-metal friction with the inside of the piston.
ARH has been making kits longer than the rest, and have a better track record of reliability. Search this forum alone, and you'll see people having issues with the Vortek kits recently.
Almost all of the real tuners that put their reputation on the line use ARH parts. Paul Watts being the most well known, and well regarded by many.
There's my two cents, with an explanation rather than a simple one word answer. Make of it what you will.
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I don’t have a Vortek in my HW97, but I used to have one in my HW98 .25. The Vortek PG3 Steel HO was supposedly “high power” but only delivered 11FPE with horrible accuracy. I pulled it out and put all the settings on highest, still only 13 FPE with unacceptable accuracy. The factory power is 15FPE and foolproof accurate with JSB 25.39, but the twang is bothersoome. @thumper thanks for the info on ARH, maybe I ought to give it a try.
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Mine 97 has a ARH tuning kit in it and it’s absolutely amazing. Thumber is right, I’ve not seen one person complain about ARH tune kits but I’ve seen dozens of people on here having problems with their Vortek kits.
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I have had tremendous success with the Vortek PG4 kit in all four of my 97s and two 77s. Personally, I wouldn’t buy anything else.
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It seems to me that there is some prejudice or bias going on here with some pretty strong opinions going various ways.
I have little interest in biased opinions.
I am interested in user reports of people that have installed or used both and can give a judicious assessment as to quality and long term functionality and reliability of various kits.
Comparison reviews you might call it…
Am I being a bit perfectionistic? Probably. Probably most of the well reputed kits are of good quality and worth the upgrade from the factory. However, if I’m going to spend money on this upgrade I want the very best especially with long term consistency and durability, thank you!
I have little interest in biased opinions.
I am interested in user reports of people that have installed or used both and can give a judicious assessment as to quality and long term functionality and reliability of various kits.
Comparison reviews you might call it…
Am I being a bit perfectionistic? Probably. Probably most of the well reputed kits are of good quality and worth the upgrade from the factory. However, if I’m going to spend money on this upgrade I want the very best especially with long term consistency and durability, thank you!
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Ideally firsthand experience…not; “I’ve seen dozens of people on here having problems with” type of experience, thanks!
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No offense, but if you've never used either or tuned many guns you won't know the difference anyway between them as long as they go in and function. Whichever one you choose will be your "best".
Which is why I can't take a recommendation seriously when someone says "I like THIS one it's better" when they have never used the others.
I gave you the information you asked for with hands-on use of both kits, and even specific differences that are facts, not opinions, between the two.
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Also, in your other thread about "sub 12ft/lb Weihrauch", you had already decided to use a Vortek kit exclusively in whatever you ended up with.
So why not just go with that already? Sounds like your mind is already made up...
So why not just go with that already? Sounds like your mind is already made up...
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If your really a perfectionist why not make your own tune kit? Most of my tunes over the past 30 plus years have been with factory parts or parts I made myself. No matter what " kit" you choose they can always be fined tuned to make them better!! Never used a premade kit, but have bought springs from various mfgrs then tune to my own specs. My springers have won numerous competitions in state and world matches. As a fellow perfectionist, I always prefer my own tunes to any premade kit.
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I’ve tried sub 12 and full power from both ARH and Vortek in my .22 and .177 97’s. I did not like the shot cycle of either sub 12 in both calibers. But I’ve read many reviews of people who love them. All about personal preference. Right now my .22 has a full power ARH that I removed 1 of the compressed coils and it’s shooting 15-17fpe depending on pellet. My .20 also has an ARH not modified and shoots the JSB 13’s just under 17fpe. My .177 has a full power PG3 kit with 2 coils removed and shoots h&n barracuda FT’s at 13 1/2fpe. This is where all 3 rifles shoot best for me. I’ve experimented with removing coils, adding preload, and basically “tuning” the rifles to the pellets that work best out of them.
Just dropping a kit in will almost always improve a rifle, but in my experience a little more work will make it even better. I am by no means a pro tuner, these are my findings
Just dropping a kit in will almost always improve a rifle, but in my experience a little more work will make it even better. I am by no means a pro tuner, these are my findings
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You have learned my friend, that should make you a pro tuner!! Any kit can be nade better if you are willing to work on it. No such thing as drop in perfect....
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Right on, thanks for the info. You are probably correct in that I won't be able to tell much of a difference. That pursuit for perfection can really became an endless cycle.
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I have been using a combination ARH spring and Vortek moly seal. The seal goes in tight but do not fit it, they form in after a day and 50 rounds. I have some ARH springs in guns for twenty years and they still shoot strong. I make my own guides and you can vary the thickness of the top hat or spring guide to increase or decrease spring strength. I agree no matter what you use it can be improved with tweaking. The key is knowing when to stop.
Jim
Jim
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I've put in several ARH old school kits and was disappointed with results. Shot cycle was harsh. I bought whole kit with spring, seals, top hat, etc, including the recommended lubes and tar. These were around 12 FPE .177 kits. Did one in FWB 124 also. About the same.
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I am NOT an expert tuner by any means, but have done several ARH kits in lower-powered guns - old HW 30's, 50's and 55's. They typically do breathe a bit of fire compared to whatever old bits I just took out, but settle in nicely after a few hundred rounds. Also, Jim designs them to fit the "worst case" of production variations he's seen in a given, so sometimes a bit of tweaking is indicated.
PS. We may need to discuss your pen name. This is the other dumb thing I build i my spare time...
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I am also a air gun and modeling guy,nice 190.
I have used both kits,they have a different firing cycle;I favor JM Kits because he has more experience,talked to him and he gives good advice,Plus he made up some special parts for me....
Unless you try both how can you pick one over the other?
If a person is happy,let them be happy,anyhow tried both kits in the same rifle,as for now it is good enough to keep it that way.....for now.
The Vortex kit is more like a poof when firing ,the JM more like a strong mechanical push.
How about this ,an automatic vs. a stick.....HA.
I have used both kits,they have a different firing cycle;I favor JM Kits because he has more experience,talked to him and he gives good advice,Plus he made up some special parts for me....
Unless you try both how can you pick one over the other?
If a person is happy,let them be happy,anyhow tried both kits in the same rifle,as for now it is good enough to keep it that way.....for now.
The Vortex kit is more like a poof when firing ,the JM more like a strong mechanical push.
How about this ,an automatic vs. a stick.....HA.
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You want unbiased opinions based on experience. Here we go.
I have never bought a full ARH kit with spring guides and all, but I have probably installed a dozen of their springs and piston seals in miscellaneous variants of the Chinese B19 springer.
I have never fabbed a spring guide nor shimmed one. Using only an ARH spring, ARH tar, ARH moly, and ARH piston seal and occasionally a shim of dental floss to the breech seal. I did the standard de-bur and lube tune to many of these Chicom guns and every single one cocked and shot smoother and with better accuracy. One of them I literally ran 500-1000 shots per week on it and never harmed the spring. That was an E3650 in a Stoeger X10 and one of the sweetest springers I have shot. On another one, an X20S, I put a Tarantula spring in it and experimented using pennies and other misc. coins for piston slugs to add weight and spacing. Up to the point of coil bind that I could not even cock it before backing down.
I learned two things. Maccari springs 1. make everything better and 2. are made to last.
My experience with Vortek, I have installed one PG2 sub-12 tune kit in a RWS 34. Definitely a big improvement there. I bought a Ruger Air Magnum with a Vortek HO Diana 350 spring, not a full kit though. Bought used, he had clipped a coil. Gun was pretty smooth and accurate for a magnum, and about 19 fpe. I received a MM-tuned XS28M in .25 for Christmas from my mom. That one had a Vortek HO spring but otherwise factory parts with some MMM added (Mike Melick Magic). That gun put out nealry 27 FPE with JSB Kings and was the only gun I shot or hunted with for probably 3 years, I could knock the cap off a Gatorade bottle at 40 yards every time with that thing. Or center punch it and blow it wide open if I preferred lol. Killed a lot of critters, even armadillos, with that rifle.
I sold the XS28, the man that bought it told me the spring had broken. So I don’t know.
Some say the Vortek springs are tempered a little too hard and break easier. I think that as long as you’re not trying to attain max power in your springer then you are probably not going to break springs. And if you go for max power or if you like to shoot heavy pellets, you’re going to go through a lot of springs.
Your mileage may vary lol.
edit- one last thing. I deburred a Walther Talon Mag .25 and installed only a ARH piston seal and then a shim of dental floss to the breech seal, honed the compression tube to 400 grit, and lubed very lightly with pure white lithium grease and nothing else. No tar, no moly. Transformed a very twangy changy 26 fpe rifle to a fairly smooth but slightly buzzy 34 fpe rifle with no other special work.
So, your mileage may vary.
I have never bought a full ARH kit with spring guides and all, but I have probably installed a dozen of their springs and piston seals in miscellaneous variants of the Chinese B19 springer.
I have never fabbed a spring guide nor shimmed one. Using only an ARH spring, ARH tar, ARH moly, and ARH piston seal and occasionally a shim of dental floss to the breech seal. I did the standard de-bur and lube tune to many of these Chicom guns and every single one cocked and shot smoother and with better accuracy. One of them I literally ran 500-1000 shots per week on it and never harmed the spring. That was an E3650 in a Stoeger X10 and one of the sweetest springers I have shot. On another one, an X20S, I put a Tarantula spring in it and experimented using pennies and other misc. coins for piston slugs to add weight and spacing. Up to the point of coil bind that I could not even cock it before backing down.
I learned two things. Maccari springs 1. make everything better and 2. are made to last.
My experience with Vortek, I have installed one PG2 sub-12 tune kit in a RWS 34. Definitely a big improvement there. I bought a Ruger Air Magnum with a Vortek HO Diana 350 spring, not a full kit though. Bought used, he had clipped a coil. Gun was pretty smooth and accurate for a magnum, and about 19 fpe. I received a MM-tuned XS28M in .25 for Christmas from my mom. That one had a Vortek HO spring but otherwise factory parts with some MMM added (Mike Melick Magic). That gun put out nealry 27 FPE with JSB Kings and was the only gun I shot or hunted with for probably 3 years, I could knock the cap off a Gatorade bottle at 40 yards every time with that thing. Or center punch it and blow it wide open if I preferred lol. Killed a lot of critters, even armadillos, with that rifle.
I sold the XS28, the man that bought it told me the spring had broken. So I don’t know.
Some say the Vortek springs are tempered a little too hard and break easier. I think that as long as you’re not trying to attain max power in your springer then you are probably not going to break springs. And if you go for max power or if you like to shoot heavy pellets, you’re going to go through a lot of springs.
Your mileage may vary lol.
edit- one last thing. I deburred a Walther Talon Mag .25 and installed only a ARH piston seal and then a shim of dental floss to the breech seal, honed the compression tube to 400 grit, and lubed very lightly with pure white lithium grease and nothing else. No tar, no moly. Transformed a very twangy changy 26 fpe rifle to a fairly smooth but slightly buzzy 34 fpe rifle with no other special work.
So, your mileage may vary.
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