BC measuring (and optimal speed and pellet for long range shooting) /theorizing

Sitting here at work stuck on a computer and pondering some shooting I did yesterday, which led me to decide to post on the subject. 

As I've commented in a couple places already, I've got a Veteran Long .22 that was purchased with hopes of shooting the JSB 25.39gr Monster RDs for specific use as my long range pellet shooter. I've been playing with this gun off and on since I bought it, but the initial chrono testing and hammer tension adjusting were done with the focus being power and the 25.4s. I arrived at a pretty stable fps/hammer adjustment with the chrono in my garage, getting 900-910fps for about 46fpe.

I found out on the first attempts at 100 yards that the 25.4s were no bueno, sending flyers (spiraling as well as curve balls). I tried them at various speeds (reducing hammer tension little by little) down from 910fps and they didn't get any better. After that 25.4s disappointment, I tried the 18.1s, same day and no chrono with me. I found a place that was producing pretty good accuracy. This was the cherry picked best group from that morning, with the 18.1s- a little off center, but I think 5 shots around moa.

100 yard groups.1601744615.jpg


When I got home I was curious to see how fast they were going at that seemingly most accurate setting. Very surprised to see them going 940-950fps (for about 35-36fpe). 

I've always read and been told that the true diabolo (skinny waist) pellets will give best accuracy/least wind deflection, etc in the 860-880 range. 

Fast forward a couple weeks and I've been shooting this gun at pdogs and killing some at pretty crazy distances. I also took this gun and shot it at the recent Heavy Duty American Field Target competition down in Phoenix......and got skunked. I was feeling pretty confident with the gun prior to the comp but it did not go well for me. I think I was second to last, among 20 competitors. The only guy with a worse score than myself was shooting 30-32fpe. The top of the heap were shooting much heaver (and better BC) pellets up around the 50fpe range. 

(I've pulled the barrel and found that it has an extremely tight choke and I think that's why it doesn't like the 25.4s, but that's a whole different ball of wax). 

Back to the 18.13s though. I was amazed at the wind deflection I saw during the competition. Some of the 80+ yard shots were requiring 2 or 3 FEET of holdoff for the wind, and then the next shot, ZERO hold-off. That got me to thinking, "I wonder if the extremely poor results in the wind are because I'm shooting them so fast?" Which led to the question, "will the 18.13s have less wind deflection if they're only going 860-880 like conventional "wisdom" suggests?" 

All of that got me to the testing yesterday: BC collection of the 18.13s at 870fps vs 940fps. 

Using the fps at two distances method and each fps is the average of 10 shots taken at that distance. ES were pretty small for each of the 4, 10 shot groups. 

BC of 18.13s @ 35.62fpe (940.5fps)= 0.0340
BC of 18.13s @ 30.5fpe (870.3fps) = 0.0358
0 and 48 yards= two distances at which fps was collected. 

So, calling that 0.034 and 0.036. Yes it is slightly better, but I expected to see a much better BC at 870fps. The difference here is quite likely marginal and inconsequential. A difference of 0.0018 probably isn't going to matter much. 

I also decided to shoot some ten shot groups at 870 and some more at 940 to see if any trends could be seen. (left column 870fps, right column 940fps). 81 consecutive shots and pulled a couple. 

870 vs 940.1601745808.jpg


There was a slight (5-10mph) wind from the left to the right. That can be seen a little on the left column, as the groups are to the right of the center of the dime just a bit. Again, though, the groups on paper seemed pretty inconclusive, lacking a significant difference in either group size or location. 

Doing some digging, I found where Robert Sterne made some comments back in 2018, specifically regarding the JSB 18.13s. Here is a screen grab of his contribution to that discussion

Rsterne.1601746265.jpg


(entire conversation found here, if interested: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=148410.0)

From his graph, it would appear that the difference in wind drift from the 18.13s between 850 to 950 is in the <1/4 of an inch range at 50 yards. 

And there you have it, my external ballistics ponderings (sprinkled with some always helpful thoughts from Rsterne) of the morning. 




 
Franklink, I can't see a difference in drift in the groups you show here either???

It's weird that you had that much trouble at the AFT, I know it's not you because you are a very good shot.

Just mentioning here, the most I aimed out at the AFT was 1.5 mil at the 100Y target with Bobby's Safari, 25 cal 34's at 944 fps. To get the dope to work I needed to put .055 G1 BC into SHOOTER app.

With my 31 fpe Royale using the JSB 18's, for 100y, my ballistic calculator shows 1.7 mils for a 5mph coming from 3 oclock and 3.3 mils for a 10 mph. It is decent at 100Y, though not showing the precision that the Safari does. The Royale peters out pretty bad by 140Y or so, bad enough that I'm basically tapping out by then.

The wind for the Safari is 1.1 mils/5mph and 2.2 mils/10 mph.

Pellets, twists, land and groove dimensions, chokes - amazing the way that all affects precision at long range distances.

My previous Impact did okay inside 100Y and by 130Y or so totally wacked out, this was with 34's at 840 fps.

That EVOL wasn't exceptionally accurate at 100Y but the 44's going 900 fps flew excellent even at 289Y??? I didn't miss that 210Y chicken very much either.

Well you'll figure this situation out eventually even though it's a pain right now.
 
Franklink,

I really enjoy your detailed reporting and clear writing.

I've tried to follow along your ballistic musings, and your idea of measuring the BC is excellent. I still have to get into that myself — waiting for a second chrono to arrive at my outpost....



🔶 I'm sorry that this barrel has not delivered what you wanted — with the tight choke and all.

I wonder if I have a similar problem with a LW — that hasn't done so well with two dozen different slugs I've tried — but all being .217 or .218, nothing smaller....





🔶A thought on pellet selection:  Have you tried the H&N Baracudas? The Match version comes in three different head sizes, and they have a Power version (copper coated). 21.13 grain. BC similar to the JSB Heavy — or better due to its much higher weight.





🔶About you measuring the BC: The 10 shots probably give you pretty reliable data — if the fluctuations between shots were not very large.

Would you confirm that you used ChairGun for PC to calculate the BC? And entered the atmospheric conditions at the test site? And selected the GA drag function? ➔ Because I would like to include your test in my Pellet BC Chart. 😊





🔶Here's another velocity-variable BC chart by Bob Sterne, with all the JSB domes in .22cal.

For longer ranges it helps a little to shoot the pellets a little faster than their optimal BC velocity — because during their flight they slow down and move to velocities with less than optimal BC.

download.png
PELLET BC.  For JSB Series, .22cal. By Bob Sterne 2017.1601867921.jpg








🔶 Wind drift of 2 to 3 feet at 80 yards...? Wow, that's quite a storm — at least what ChairGun seems to tell me:

The JSB Heavy would drift 2 feet with a 30 miles per hour wind if directly from the side 😱 — more wind if at a different angle.

3ft drift — 45 mph wind.... 😱 



And then you had all of a sudden NO DRIFT?! Some crazy swirls and wind shear — sound like weather when even the birds take the bus. While you guys were shooting an airrifle competition...!! COOL! 👍🏼





✔️ Keep us in the loop on your quest for better long range precision, Franklink! 😊

Matthias


 
@steve123, thanks for the vote of confidence.

Yeah this gun/barrel is an enigma. It's bad medicine on the prairie dogs, longest successful shots were back to back at 185 lasered yards. It was something like 12 mils of elevation and 3-5mils if windage. There were a couple running around right in that spot, took a couple shots to figure out the windage for the first one ,second one ran over to check out his dead buddy and I got him with one shot. Most of my little p dog sessions I'll get one or two somewhere past 140 yards with this gun. So, it'll hold accuracy together really good for really long range, just gotta be done with the 18.1s and they're not very good in the wind. Really having fun with it and the 18.1s. Cheap pellets and lots of shots/fill at the 35fpe, but want something not so susceptible to the wind. 

As for getting this resolved, I've got a couple unchoked LW blanks being delivered tomorrow for our buddy to machine one for this gun. If the new barrel doesnt like the 25.4 MRDs than I'm hoping it'll like an NSA offering (being unchoked). I stumbled upon the fact the other day that NSA slugs are now cheaper than the MRDs. 

The joy is in the journey. 😀
 
Franklink, and all those others that aren't sure of the slug prices and slug offerings — here's a Slug Specs Table (in .22cal, but the Table lists which other calibers the manufacturer offers, and I expect pricing to be similar).



Below is the attachment.



Stats (.22cal)

12 slug manufacturers shipping to the US, of which 7 are selling/shipping worldwide

379 slug variations (weight, diameter, shape) available to US customers, 51 of these worldwide

Prices as low as 5 or 6 cents by NSA (with 35x variations), or 7-8c (H&N: 10x; JSB: 3x). 

Diameters: usually only .217 and .218, however NSA offers 5 different diameters, so shooters can fit the slug to their barrels

Weights from as low as 17.5gr (NSA) and 15gr (Griffin) and as high as 40/44gr (VK, Griffin) and 55gr (MHP)

Extreme hollow points for expansion at lower impact velocities offered by Talon (frags!) and LFS



Matthias



❌ Attachment Slug Specs Table

download.png
View attachment SLUG TABLE. 049. 2020-09.1601871648.pdf


 
Franklink,

I really enjoy your detailed reporting and clear writing.

I've tried to follow along your ballistic musings, and your idea of measuring the BC is excellent. I still have to get into that myself — waiting for a second chrono to arrive at my outpost....



1f536.svg
I'm sorry that this barrel has not delivered what you wanted
— with the tight choke and all.

I wonder if I have a similar problem with a LW — that hasn't done so well with two dozen different slugs I've tried — but all being .217 or .218, nothing smaller....





1f536.svg
A thought on pellet selection: 
Have you tried the H&N Baracudas? The Match version comes in three different head sizes, and they have a Power version (copper coated). 21.13 grain. BC similar to the JSB Heavy — or better due to its much higher weight.





1f536.svg
About you measuring the BC:
The 10 shots probably give you pretty reliable data — if the fluctuations between shots were not very large.

Would you confirm that you used ChairGun for PC to calculate the BC? And entered the atmospheric conditions at the test site? And selected the GA drag function? ➔ Because I would like to include your test in my Pellet BC Chart.
1f60a.svg






1f536.svg
Here's another velocity-variable BC chart by Bob Sterne
, with all the JSB domes in .22cal.

For longer ranges it helps a little to shoot the pellets a little faster than their optimal BC velocity — because during their flight they slow down and move to velocities with less than optimal BC.

download.png
PELLET BC.  For JSB Series, .22cal. By Bob Sterne 2017.1601867921.jpg








1f536.svg
Wind drift of 2 to 3 feet at 80 yards...? Wow, that's quite a storm — at least what ChairGun seems to tell me:

The JSB Heavy would drift 2 feet with a 30 miles per hour wind if directly from the side
1f631.svg
— more wind if at a different angle.

3ft drift — 45 mph wind....
1f631.svg
 



And then you had all of a sudden NO DRIFT?! Some crazy swirls and wind shear — sound like weather when even the birds take the bus. While you guys were shooting an airrifle competition...!! COOL!
1f44d-1f3fc.svg






2714.svg
Keep us in the loop on your quest for better long range precision, Franklink!
1f60a.svg


Matthias


Thanks Matthias. 

I've tried slugs out of this barrel too, down to the 0.2165 size from NSA, the 17.5s to be specific. They did okay at < 50 yards but were really bad any further out. 

When I pushed various projectiles all the way through the barrel I was finding they measured 0.210-0.211. When I pushed them up to the choke and then back out the breech, they were in that 0.214-0.215 size. That suggests to me that even the 0.2165 slugs are too big for the choke on this particular barrel. 

Check out what a JSB 25.4 looks like after going through the choke. 
IMG_20200905_083533_01.1601871283.jpg
 

The marks made by the lands start pretty high up the skills of the skirt. Oh, and the amount of force required to push any projectile through the choke is just something else. Dang near has to be tapped through, vs pushed through. 

So, I think the tight choke keeps slugs from being an option with this barrel too. 

It's a good barrel and really likes the 18.1s. 

On your question of H&N, I tried these 

PXL_20201005_040247396.1601871516.jpg


And they did just okay at 50 yards. From past experiences I have a really hard time making any H&N pellet a primary projectile for a gun. They've just seemed to be really inconsistent across various types and calibers, as well as from one tin to the next of the same pellet. 

As for BC collection, I just checked my notes and the SDs of the: 10 near for the lower power was 3.03, 10 near higher power 2.34, and each of the 10 far were a little over 6 (both high power and low power). So, fairly consistent. I use a single chronograph and move it. With a second chrono I'd suggest that you make sure they both read similarly or the BCs calculated like this won't mean much. I've seen quite a bit of variation from one particular chronograph to the next. 

No, I did not use chairgin for PC and the calculator I used does not have any specific drag profile. A drag profile might be built into the macro running the calculator behind the scenes, but the requested values are just distances and speeds. This is the one I used https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/Calcs.html but I've used the one on Pyramyd Air's website before too. 

And for the wind drift of 2-3 feet and what chairgun says the wind was doing that day.....it wasn't blowing as hard as chairgin says. With where I live, I have the opportunity to shoot at long range, a lot, and usually in the wind. I have settled into the stance that certain pellets from certain barrels at certain speeds can perform much better or much worse in the wind than ballistic calculators model. Along with that, I don't think that BC is the end-all, be-all to how well a projectile does on the wind. Yes, it's probably the best quantitative way we have to analyze how well a pellet/slug cuts through the wind, but it seems there is much more going on than what a BC would suggest. We really need something more qualitative than BC to describe how well a projectile slips through the air and resists wind deflection. And it doesn't seem like all the drag profiles are the answer either. I say that because certain gun/barrel/projectile combos just do much better than their BC says they should, when it comes to wind deflection. And vice-versa too, sometimes the wind really grabs hold of a certain type of pellet when the BC says it should be slicing through the air better than it does. 

Yes, I'll update how the new barrel performs. I've also got a power plenum coming for this gun. The extra couple inches of barrel and the plenum are sure making me look like one of those power hungry airgunners, something I never thought I'd be. I've fought it pretty hard but it seems that (consistent) long range accuracy will require a bump in power and a heavier more streamlined projectile. 
 
@Franklink

The extra couple inches of barrel and the plenum are sure making me look like one of those power hungry airgunners, something I never thought I'd be. I've fought it pretty hard but it seems that (consistent) long range accuracy will require a bump in power and a heavier more streamlined projectile. 


We are the Power Hungry Airgunners. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile...
 
I've also got a power plenum coming for this gun. The extra couple inches of barrel and the plenum are sure making me look like one of those power hungry airgunners, something I never thought I'd be.

I've fought it pretty hard but it seems that (consistent) long range accuracy will require a bump in power and a heavier more streamlined projectile.



Franklink,

well, that comment of yours might well be the one that will make me fall into the next deep hole of airgunning — the POWER HOLE... 😄 — I've been contemplating a power plenum for a good while now...! "I'm fighting it pretty hard, but...."





🔶 About the forces that projectiles drift in the wind.... 

Over at www.GatewayToAirguns.org we have Bob Sterne, ballistic staff writer for HardAir Magazine, and Miles Morris, a professional ballistician. Vast knowledge, vast experience.

Just from those two it's amazing what we learn there.

Your observations about pellet drift in the wind sound very interesting!! 😊 Please, it would help a lot of people to discuss this and have Bob's and Miles' input. 

There are a few other factors out there beyond the BC, like the vertical deflection in crosswind, spindrift, and coriolis..... And Strelok Pro includes all of these....





🔶 About measuring BC:

The drag function that a ballistic calculator uses is hugely important — and the AoA is problably of the worst of the three likely options, using a constant drag coefficient.... (GA and G1 being the other two likely candidates). This is especially important at the higher velocities.

And the atmospheric conditions WILL influence the results of a BC test....





🔶 Your barrel's choke is as tight as the bully's choke he had me in when I was in 7th grade!

Sorry!! Bad barrel by CZ. But good interpretation of the pellet marks by you. 👍🏼😊



Matthias 
 
Matthias, I got nothing on Miles and Bob. I've read much of their stuff and they're leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of us. 

Yes, atmospheric conditions will influence the BC. I never tried to say anything contrary. Elevation is 5600 feet here. Humidity was probably around 10% (normal for us) and it was in the mid 80s (farenheit). BCs that I usually use when playing with Strelok or Chairgun are much better than what I typically see reported, and I fell that it's my thin (-er than sea level) air.

From your comments I am getting the impression that you're putting A LOT more faith in ballistic calculators than they deserve. A few comments on why I say that......

As I've mentioned on the forum before, I'm a pharmacist and I work in a hospital (think IVs). With the more complicated to dose IV meds, the hospitalists (inpatient physicians) almost always just order "pharmacy to dose x." That is the hospital's protocol for them turning it over to us. These drugs typically have complicated pharmacokinetics (what the drug does in the body). Many of them can cause serious toxicities if drug levels in the body rise above certain levels, most of them also don't have the required effect if drug levels aren't high enough, or aren't high enough for a certain amount of time (concentration-dependent vs time-dependent). So, keeping drug levels where they should be, in a patient with a constantly changing level of hydration and varying degrees of kidney function is fun. We often use dosing calculators that are very much like the ballistic programs we use in shooting. The dosing calculators allow for inputting all the parameters (age, weight, sex, kidney function, desired drug level, etc) just like we would do for Strelok for example (pellet weight, speed, elevation, temp, wind speed and direction, scope height above bore, etc). Often the dosing calculators get us close, just like Strelok does, but never exactly correct. Vancomycin for example, more serious infections require trough levels of 15-20. The dosing calculator will say that a certain mg dose, given a certain amount of hrs apart will give a trough of, say 16.7, with all the patient's parameters entered. After the patient has reached steady state (different for every drug but vanco is prior to the 4th dose) we draw an ACTUAL blood level (trough) and it is rarely 16.7. It will sometimes be supra or subtherapeutic and we adjust the dose and go again. 

When I work up a gun for a field target match, which requires knowing EXACT impact points from 10-55 yards, I have yet to have a gun/scope/pellets impact points match up exactly to what Strelok or Chairgun predicts. I've had various guns be close, but not close enough that I trust them for competition. I shoot all the guns that I will compete with at all of the distances, from the position I use for shooting, and record where the pellets are striking. I'll repeat that as many times as I can in varying conditions and usually what makes it to my dope card is an amalgamation of all the results from the shooting sessions. 

My two examples above are just trying to make the point that ACTUAL data trumps PREDICTED data every. single. time. 

Ballistic calculators are fun to play with, but truly shooting a specific gun will give data instead of predictions. 

So, the BCs I worked up the other day are pretty good ideas of how well the 18.13s slipped through the air that day, at those two specific speeds. They are actual BCs of this gun, calculated from actual data. I was using 0.040 in Strelok to get things to match up kinda closely, prior to doing any of the BC collection that started all of this discussion. Which lead me to this.....(just did this now as an experiment). 

Plugged all the numbers into an old version of Chairgun for PC.

BC from veteran.1601915059.jpg
bc from veteran1.1601915059.jpg


A difference of 0.0016, using the GA, and STILL an inconsequential difference in BC from one speed to the next with the 18.1s from this gun. The difference using AOA's calculator was 0.0018. As I previously mentioned, I'm betting there's a GA drag profile in the macro/behind the scenes calculations for the AOA website tool. Th difference of 0.0002 between the calculators is most likely due to how it was formulated to do the rounding. 

Regardless of the calculator I use, the answer the question I wanted answered (will lowering the speed help the wind drift?) is pretty much the same. No, it won't. Now, had I seen a BC go from 0.0386 with the 35fpe to 0.045 with the 30fpe, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be out there shooting it at distance to see how much it really drifts at 870fps vs 940fps. But, with this minimal (and very similar between two calculators) difference, nope, not worth my time. 

You wanna really have some fun? check out these numbers with G1 instead of GA.

G1.1601916072.jpg
g11.1601916072.jpg


G1 is a flat based spitzer, a far cry from a skinny waisted diabolo like the 18.13gr JSB, yet the predicted BCs are nearly the same. THIS is why I don't give much credence to putting all my eggs in the ballistic modeling program basket. They're a good start, but that's it-gotta shoot real pellets (or slugs) at real distances in real conditions to get real results.














 
I think for shorter range (up to 100 yards) its feasible to shoot various yardages to check your dope for your gun. BC and Strelok Pro not quite as important. But once you start going longer distances, having an accurate confirmed BC and then the use of a ballistics app is crucial to success. Yes, you can take some sighters and see where the dirt puffs at 200 yards, but then the ground squirrel is long gone... The goal is "one shot, one kill". So what I like to do is confirm the BC at approx. 110 to 120 yards with the drop method. Get your gun zero'd at 50 yards exactly. Then shoot at 110, 125, or farther, and measure the drop, along with muzzle velocity. If your gun is at all tuned, your muzzle velocity will remain relatively constant (within 10 FPS) and you can shoot ten shots and measure the average drop at that distance. Then plug the numbers into Strelok Pro to the "BC Truing" of your gun/scope/ammo combination. This results in real world data that is usually very accurate when plugged in the ballistic app. It also teaches that for slugs, as the distance increases, the BC also increases. For instance, I did this with my .22 Edgun R3 Long and NSA 20.2 grain slugs at 985 FPS. The calculated BC at 90 yards was 0.070, but at 120 yards was 0.075. I didn't try it any longer than that, but more than likely it increased a bit more out at longer distances.
CF0D215C-B965-49C0-BB10-E56517E79D1C.1601923795.jpeg

 
Franklink,

yes, you have analyzed me correctly, I'm a believer in the numbers.... 😄 And I'm always trying to improve the input into my ballistic calculators to avoid the always lurking GIGA — garbage in ➔ garbage out! 😄 Just like you said. ✔️ 



🔶The rather high BC numbers you're getting, yes, I agree, that must be because of the high altitude (low air pressure) of the test — so the ballistic calculator would need to be told that. 😄 



🔶I appreciate your illustration from your medical world — yes, life (incl. shooting) is rarely simple, and any outcome rarely has just a handful of calculable factors that cause it....

So, basing a dope card on actual data gained in similar conditions than the actual shot will be better than calculated data based only on a handful of factors. The challenge sometimes is to actually get actual data....

Thanks for your explanations, Franklink! 👍🏼😊





🔶 Centercut,

I find the apparent change in BC with slugs at longer ranges intriguing!

What MV were you using? ➔ I would think this might illustrate what Bob Sterne's graphs that Franklink and I posted above are telling us. 

At transonic velocities the drag increases disproportionately, and so initially the slug is fighting the air resistance much more. As it slows down, there is a lot less drag, and so it seems that the BC* increases. 



🔶 One thing I like about Strelok Pro is that it allows you to enter velocity dependent BC numbers (up to 5 per projectile). And if you want to go all airgun geek, it allows you to enter a custom drag model (CDM), basically an unlimited amount of velocities and their concurrent drag for even more precise ballistic solutions.





🔶 Tomorrow I get to introduce a guy to airgunning — I hope he catches the virus (not the Corona virus, please, but the AG virus)! 😄

Matthias



*(Technically, I guess it's not really the BC that changes, but the drag, because the BC with the appropriate drag function should be constant.)