ARH "indoor plinkers" kit for the hw50s

[EMrider]

For the past few years, I've done most of my target shooting and small game hunting with my .177 hw50s springers. With the exception of the R7, all of the HW guns I've ever owned (R1, hw97k, hw50s and R7) have come over-sprung from the factory. My personal preference has always been to self-tune the guns with either an ARH or Vortek kit, and reduce the power level by 20%-25% from factory specs. This has always given me both an improved shot cycle and better accuracy. I don't hunt beyond 40 yards with my springers, and the vast majority of my shots are between 15-30 yards.

IMHO, the hw50s is an outstanding package and it has become my favorite. Both of mine have been setup with Vortek PG4 kits (with plastic guides) to shoot between 10-10.5 fpe, depending on pellet choice. In both cases I had to clip 2-3 coils to achieve my desired power level. The hw50s is comfortable to shoulder from a rest or in the field, the power level is plenty for my needs, it is light enough to carry for several hours and both of mine have delivered excellent accuracy.

All that said, I've always had a slight preference for the shooting characteristics of the ARH kits. I'm no expert on spring design, but the thinner wire + more pre-load combination used by ARH seems to result in slightly lower power levels and a more docile shot cycle versus the Vortek kits.

I think that ARH has offered the "indoor plinkers" kit for the hw50s for many years. That said, it does not appear to be very popular because I was only able to find 1 or 2 short reviews on the kit within the past several years.

Because tinkering is part of the fun, I bought one and installed it in one of my .177 hw50s a few weeks ago. It had probably 2"-2.5" more preload than the clipped Vortek kit it replaced, but was very easy to install because the spring diameter and tension are lower.

After a tin of JSB 8.4s, I'm very pleased with the outcome and planning to put the same kit into my other hw50s.

The ARH "indoor plinkers" kit is generating 8.8fpe with JSB 8.4g pellets (fps = between 685-690). That compares with 9.8fpe with the clipped Vortek PG4 kit it replaced. The shot to shot consistency and accuracy have been quite good and most importantly, I think the shot cycle has improved. I realize that is subjective and not too surprising given the lower power level. At 8.8fpe I'll limit my hunting distance to 30 or 35 yards max. At that distance I'll get about 1" of pellet drop and have terminal energy of a bit more than 6fpe. Works for me.

If you like the size of the hw50s and want to turn it into an "all day shooter" with easy cocking and a mellow shot cycle, give the ARH "indoor plinkers" kit a try.

R

 

[Mycapt65]

Good write up. I love my Hw50. I think it's a fantastic gun. Everything you said about it is true. I run a Vortek kit in it at around 11.5 fpe. It's my preferred woods squirrel hunter. I seldom take shots past 40 yards. If I had an extra Hw50 around I wouldn't think twice about knocking it down to nine or ten fpe. It'd be a great backyard plinker. I have three 8 fpe 177 Hw30s for the wife and I for that role. I'm glad you are happy with your project. Sounds like you got exactly what you wanted.

Be well
Ron

 

[Sqwirl57]

The 50S is one of those magical guns. I run mine at 11.8fpe with JSB 8.44s and it keeps up with my 10.5fpe 97K very, very well.

 

[EMrider]

Good write up. I love my Hw50. I think it's a fantastic gun. Everything you said about it is true. I run a Vortek kit in it at around 11.5 fpe. It's my preferred woods squirrel hunter. I seldom take shots past 40 yards. If I had an extra Hw50 around I wouldn't think twice about knocking it down to nine or ten fpe. It'd be a great backyard plinker. I have three 8 fpe 177 Hw30s for the wife and I for that role. I'm glad you are happy with your project. Sounds like you got exactly what you wanted.

Be well
Ron

Yep, as you know, these tuning adventures don't always work out and it is nice when something comes together more or less as you hope it will.

Just curious, are you using a regular Vortek kit in your R7s? I've tried them (5+ years ago), but have never gotten much above 7fpe with mine. 8fpe for an R7 is pretty fast.

R

 

[Sqwirl57]

Yep, as you know, these tuning adventures don't always work out and it is nice when something comes together more or less as you hope it will.

Just curious, are you using a regular Vortek kit in your R7s? I've tried them (5+ years ago), but have never gotten much above 7fpe with mine. 8fpe for an R7 is pretty fast.

R

I have one of the PG4s (maybe a PG3?) in my 30S and get 7.9fpe with 8.44s

 

[Mycapt65]

Yep, as you know, these tuning adventures don't always work out and it is nice when something comes together more or less as you hope it will.

Just curious, are you using a regular Vortek kit in your R7s? I've tried them (5+ years ago), but have never gotten much above 7fpe with mine. 8fpe for an R7 is pretty fast.

R

All three of my Hw30s are running PG2, or 4 HO kits. I've installed at least another half dozen various PG HO kits in other people's Hw30s or R7s. I always get a little over 8 fpe initially. Usually about 8.2 - 8.4 fpe. After 3 to 5k shots they settle down to 8 fpe and hang there for probably another 20k to 30k shots. Then the slide down to about 7.7 fpe. That's when I change out the spring and usually the seal. I just changed a spring with one with an extra half coil and I'm getting almost 9 fpe with zero dieseling. I'm curious where it settles down to. It still shoots nice and very accurately.

I've had exceptionally good luck with these kits. At least until the steel guides and SHO kit were introduced. The steel guides sometimes get cut up by the sharp edges of the cocking arm foot. It's not the fault of the kit as much the inconsistent finished sizes of the folded stamped steel cocking arm foot. It's not an issue in factory style set ups but the wide manufacturing tolerances can occasionally causes problems with the steel PG4 guides. The fix is to relieve and radius the underside of the cocking arm foot.

The PG4 SHO kit promised more power. It used a 118 wire spring instead of a 113 wire spring. I tried six ways from Sunday to reach the advertised ten fpe with a 22 Hw30 and it never did much more than the regular HO kit. Which made 8 fpe in that particular rifle. The only thing the SHO kit did was make the gun considerably harder to cock and tax the cocking arm pivots. After a discussion with Tom at Vortek I believed he discontinued the Hw30 SHO kit.

Keep in mind I'm at sea level and outputs decrease with altitude. Also I always use the Vortek piston seals. They produce more power than any other seal I've used. The only popular one I haven't used is the Australian CAS seals. In Hw30 platforms I use JSB 7.33 or the AA clones for testing and shooting. Heavier pellets will yield less power with this set up. In 22 I've found that H&N FTTs worked best.

My Hw30s are my most used gun. My first one probably has 100k shots on it and my second Hw30 probably has close to that. My wife's is only a year and half old it probably has only 2 or 3k shots on it still making about 8.4 fpe.

These guns are by far my favorite. I'll shoot tin after tin through them in a single day. I'll shoot 2" spinners at 50 yds with peeps and beer cans at a 100 yards with my scoped one. When the wind is down neither is hard. When the weather is crappy I'll shoot them all day long in my basement. Squirrels don't stand a chance inside of 25 yards. On paper my 30s can hang with my 97 out to 30 yards. All in all I think they are the most fun guns you can own. Especially since they're cocked so easily you never fatigue. The fun is only limited by your imagination.

Ok I'm done. Can you tell I like these guns?

Ron

 

[Sqwirl57]

All three of my Hw30s are running PG2, or 4 HO kits. I've installed at least another half dozen various PG HO kits in other people's Hw30s or R7s. I always get a little over 8 fpe initially. Usually about 8.2 - 8.4 fpe. After 3 to 5k shots they settle down to 8 fpe and hang there for probably another 20k to 30k shots. Then the slide down to about 7.7 fpe. That's when I change out the spring and usually the seal. I just changed a spring with one with an extra half coil and I'm getting almost 9 fpe with zero dieseling. I'm curious where it settles down to. It still shoots nice and very accurate.

I've had exceptionally good luck with these kits. At least until the steel guides and SHO kit were introduced. The steel guides sometimes get cut up by the sharp edges of the cocking arm foot. It's not the fault of the kit as much the inconsistent finished sizes of the folded stamped steel cocking arm foot. It's not an issue in factory style set ups but the wide manufacturing tolerances can occasionally causes problems with the steel PG4 guides. The fix is to relieve and radius the underside of the cocking arm foot.

The PG4 SHO kit promised more power. It used a 118 wire spring instead of a 113 wire spring. I tried six ways from Sunday to reach the advertised ten fpe with a 22 Hw30 and it never did much more than the regular HO kit. Which made 8 fpe in that particular rifle. The only thing the SHO kit did was make the gun considerably harder to cock and tax the cocking arm pivots. After a discussion with Tom at Vortek I believed he discontinued the Hw30 SHO kit.

Keep in mind I'm at sea level and outputs decrease with altitude. Also I always use the Vortek piston seals. They produce more power than any other seal I've used. The only popular one I haven't used is the Australian CAS seals. In Hw30 platforms I use JSB 7.33 or the AA clones for testing and shooting. Heavier pellets will yield less power with this set up. In 22 I've found that H&N FTTs worked best.

My Hw30s are my most used gun my first one probably has 100k shots on it and my second Hw30 probably has close to that. My wife's is only a year and half old it probably has only 2 or 3k shots on it still making about 8.4 fpe.

These guns are by far my favorite. I'll shoot tin after tin through them in a single day. I'll shoot 2" spinners at 50 yds with peeps and beer cans at a 100 yards with my scoped one. When the wind is down neither is hard. When the weather is crappy I'll shoot them all day long in my basement. Squirrels don't stand a chance inside of 25 yards. All in all I think they are the most fun guns you can own. Especially since they're cocked so easily you never fatigue. The fun is only limited by your imagination.

Ok I'm done. Can you tell I like these guns?

Ron

View attachment 280182

Excellent trio there! I have one of the laminates too and its just a great little gun. My next toy is probably going to be a second 30S in .22. I was hoping to grab one out of the classifieds but they don't pop up very often unfortunately. It just seems like such a fun caliber for that gun

 

[Mycapt65]

Excellent trio there! I have one of the laminates too and its just a great little gun. My next toy is probably going to be a second 30S in .22. I was hoping to grab one out of the classifieds but they don't pop up very often unfortunately. It just seems like such a fun caliber for that gun

Caliber is personal preference. The HW30 in 22 is very loopy so you'll either need to have excellent ranging and hold over skills or its gonna be close range only gun. I had a 22 Hw50 and sold it because it was loopier than my 177 Hw30s and I couldn't hit spinners reliably past 35-40 yards. The bigger pellets gave them a more satisfying whack when I did hit them. The problem was I couldn't hit them nearly as often. Using the same front and rear sights I had an extra fifteen yards of reliable accuracy with the extra 90 fps. If you are going to scope yours and you shoot at known distances you can always learn your reticle holdovers and 22 will be just fine.
Whatever you choose have fun!

Ps; if you switch from 8.44 to 7.33 you'll be up over 8 fpe.

 

[Sqwirl57]

Caliber is personal preference. The HW30 in 22 is very loopy so you'll either need to have excellent ranging and hold over skills or its gonna be close range only gun. I had a 22 Hw50 and sold it because it was loopier than my 177 Hw30s and I couldn't hit spinners reliably past 35-40 yards. The bigger pellets gave them a more satisfying whack when I did hit them. The problem was I couldn't hit them nearly as often. Using the same front and rear sights I had an extra fifteen yards of reliable accuracy with the extra 90 fps. If you are going to scope yours and you shoot at known distances you can always learn your reticle holdovers and 22 will be just fine.
Whatever you choose have fun!

Ps; if you switch from 8.44 to 7.33 you'll be up over 8 fpe.

I like loopy haha. I have plenty of non loopy guns so its fun to add a little challenge to it sometimes. My main reason for wanting one is for indoor pesting. A low velocity .22 seems like it would be perfect for that within reason.

I need to place a pellet order soon so hopefully I'll be able to get some 7.33s as well. Thanks for the tip!

 

[EMrider]

All three of my Hw30s are running PG2, or 4 HO kits. I've installed at least another half dozen various PG HO kits in other people's Hw30s or R7s. I always get a little over 8 fpe initially. Usually about 8.2 - 8.4 fpe. After 3 to 5k shots they settle down to 8 fpe and hang there for probably another 20k to 30k shots. Then the slide down to about 7.7 fpe. That's when I change out the spring and usually the seal. I just changed a spring with one with an extra half coil and I'm getting almost 9 fpe with zero dieseling. I'm curious where it settles down to. It still shoots nice and very accurately.

I've had exceptionally good luck with these kits. At least until the steel guides and SHO kit were introduced. The steel guides sometimes get cut up by the sharp edges of the cocking arm foot. It's not the fault of the kit as much the inconsistent finished sizes of the folded stamped steel cocking arm foot. It's not an issue in factory style set ups but the wide manufacturing tolerances can occasionally causes problems with the steel PG4 guides. The fix is to relieve and radius the underside of the cocking arm foot.

The PG4 SHO kit promised more power. It used a 118 wire spring instead of a 113 wire spring. I tried six ways from Sunday to reach the advertised ten fpe with a 22 Hw30 and it never did much more than the regular HO kit. Which made 8 fpe in that particular rifle. The only thing the SHO kit did was make the gun considerably harder to cock and tax the cocking arm pivots. After a discussion with Tom at Vortek I believed he discontinued the Hw30 SHO kit.

Keep in mind I'm at sea level and outputs decrease with altitude. Also I always use the Vortek piston seals. They produce more power than any other seal I've used. The only popular one I haven't used is the Australian CAS seals. In Hw30 platforms I use JSB 7.33 or the AA clones for testing and shooting. Heavier pellets will yield less power with this set up. In 22 I've found that H&N FTTs worked best.

My Hw30s are my most used gun. My first one probably has 100k shots on it and my second Hw30 probably has close to that. My wife's is only a year and half old it probably has only 2 or 3k shots on it still making about 8.4 fpe.

These guns are by far my favorite. I'll shoot tin after tin through them in a single day. I'll shoot 2" spinners at 50 yds with peeps and beer cans at a 100 yards with my scoped one. When the wind is down neither is hard. When the weather is crappy I'll shoot them all day long in my basement. Squirrels don't stand a chance inside of 25 yards. On paper my 30s can hang with my 97 out to 30 yards. All in all I think they are the most fun guns you can own. Especially since they're cocked so easily you never fatigue. The fun is only limited by your imagination.

Ok I'm done. Can you tell I like these guns?

Ron

View attachment 280182

I can see that you’re a fan of the R7, and owning two of them I can also understand why. They are light, accurate and a plinkers best friend. They are also pretty effective on small game inside of 25 yards too. Your info reminded me about the JSB RS 7.33 pellets. I used to shoot those in my R7 and they are an ideal pellet for that power level. I ran out of them a few years ago and need to give them a try again.

My only minor gripe about the R7/hw30 is the barrel lockup. I’ve found the ball detent design can be inconsistent in some (but not all) guns and that can impact accuracy. The chisel design of the hw50s barrel lockup is one of the many things I like about that model.

R

 

[Mycapt65]

There's a couple issues that need to be addressed with the lock up. Firstly brand new guns or guns with brand new breech seal. The additional thickness of a brand new seal holds the lock up rather than the breech block sitting on the stop pin. Typically the Weihrauch seal will flatten with use and the lock up will be set by the metal to metal step as designed rather than the willy nilly properties of an elastic seal.

The other possibility that most people will never shoot enough to incur is the locking cross pin get dented or worn by the ball detent. This leaves slight play in the lock up. Only a couple thousandth of an inch of play translates to a half inch at ten yards.

I did a full blown explanation of the systems design, the popular misconceptions and the fixes on another forum. If you Google Hw30 lock up issues and Bayman you should find it. It's replete with diagrams and explanations.

I was just shooting my laminate Hw30 with the new spring. It's still making about 8.5 fpe. Not bad for a cute little gun. Ohhh also make sure your pivot bolt tension isn't too tight. Loose is better than tight as long as you don't have side play.

Be well
Ron

 

[EMrider]

There's a couple issues that need to be addressed with the lock up. Firstly brand new guns or guns with brand new breech seal. The additional thickness of a brand new seal holds the lock up rather than the breech block sitting on the stop pin. Typically the Weihrauch seal will flatten with use and the lock up will be set by the metal to metal step as designed rather than the willy nilly properties of an elastic seal.

The other possibility that most people will never shoot enough to incur is the locking cross pin get dented or worn by the ball detent. This leaves slight play in the lock up. Only a couple thousandth of an inch of play translates to a half inch at ten yards.

I did a full blown explanation of the systems design, the popular misconceptions and the fixes on another forum. If you Google Hw30 lock up issues and Bayman you should find it. It's replete with diagrams and explanations.

I was just shooting my laminate Hw30 with the new spring. It's still making about 8.5 fpe. Not bad for a cute little gun. Ohhh also make sure your pivot bolt tension isn't too tight. Loose is better than tight as long as you don't have side play.

Be well
Ron

Thanks for the input. The hw30 I had a problem with was a brand new gun I was giving to a friend. I replaced the factory breech seal with a new seal from Vortek and that helped get the accuracy up to an acceptable level. But my concern was that the spring HW used behind the ball detent was not strong enough to ensure a firm lock up. My two R7 were tuned by pros (i.e., not me) and the spring behind the ball detent on those guns seems much firmer. Both guns shoot at about 6.5-7fpe and are very accurate out to 25-30 yards.

This is all subjective opinion on my part and I don’t have any tools to actually measure spring tension, so I’m likely over-thinking this. The difference in accuracy with this one hw30 was very minor, and I only really noticed this because HW guns are typically over-built and very solid.

R

 

[Sqwirl57]

My 30S has a pretty loose lockup on it as well. I was getting significant flyers and strings in my groups until I realized what was going on. If I put the gun down too abruptly the barrel would actually drop down some and cause shots to be as far as 10" off at 30yds. Ever since I started gliding the gun INTO the front bag instead of placing it ON the front bag, all of my groups have been basically one ragged hole. I actually started using that method for all of my guns. Not all benefited from that but some did. None were anywhere near as bad as my 30S was though.

 

[Mycapt65]

Thanks for the input. The hw30 I had a problem with was a brand new gun I was giving to a friend. I replaced the factory breech seal with a new seal from Vortek and that helped get the accuracy up to an acceptable level. But my concern was that the spring HW used behind the ball detent was not strong enough to ensure a firm lock up. My two R7 were tuned by pros (i.e., not me) and the spring behind the ball detent on those guns seems much firmer. Both guns shoot at about 6.5-7fpe and are very accurate out to 25-30 yards.

This is all subjective opinion on my part and I don’t have any tools to actually measure spring tension, so I’m likely over-thinking this. The difference in accuracy with this one hw30 was very minor, and I only really noticed this because HW guns are typically over-built and very solid.

R

The problem with your new Hw30 wasn't the detent ball or its spring. The breech block simply wasn't locking up on the steel pin yet. New breech seals start off proud and take time to flatten. When it eventually flattens from use the lock up will be determined by the steel to steel step and not the elastic seal. Then it will be rock solid.

The only reason that the accuracy somewhat improved with the Vortek seal is the Vortek seals are much harder. They are too thick and still prevent proper lock. The harder seal makes the lock up more consistent because it's less elastic and makes a harder stop point. It still won't be a proper steel to steel lock up.

To the best of my knowledge there's no way of servicing the detent ball without destroying the breech block. Tuners would have no way of changing spring pressure. I have three of these guns with over a hundred thousand rounds through them. I've tuned several Hw30s and R7s (new and old) for other people. Since these guns are clearly my favorite and I have lots of experience with them I'm about as familiar with their design as anybody. If you haven't already looked up the write up I mentioned earlier. You should. It clears up what I've touched on here.

Be well
Ron

 

[Mycapt65]

My 30S has a pretty loose lockup on it as well. I was getting significant flyers and strings in my groups until I realized what was going on. If I put the gun down too abruptly the barrel would actually drop down some and cause shots to be as far as 10" off at 30yds. Ever since I started gliding the gun INTO the front bag instead of placing it ON the front bag, all of my groups have been basically one ragged hole. I actually started using that method for all of my guns. Not all benefited from that but some did. None were anywhere near as bad as my 30S was though.

Yes plopping any break barrel can cause a dip in the barrel. This can be minimized a couple of ways. First obviously is not to plop the gun down on the bag. Second is having the pivot tension set right. Too loose or too tight can aggravate the situation. Too tight usually more so as the detent has to overcome the stiction of the pivot. Too loose let's the barrel bounce down more. The pivot tension adjustment is more critical on the 30s but it's less so if the gun is locking up properly on the steel parts and not the seal. A too proud breech seal can also prevent the barrel from returning to proper lock up after the barrel is bounced on the bag. Just about all break barrels that I've worked on and handled will do this if the pivot tension isn't right.

 

[Bear-of-Grayling]

Yes plopping any break barrel can cause a dip in the barrel. This can be minimized a couple of ways. First obviously is not to plop the gun down on the bag. Second is having the pivot tension set right. Too loose or too tight can aggravate the situation. Too tight usually more so as the detent has to overcome the stiction of the pivot. Too loose let's the barrel bounce down more. The pivot tension adjustment is more critical on the 30s but it's less so if the gun is locking up properly on the steel parts and not the seal. A too proud can also prevent the barrel from returning to proper lock up after the barrel is bounced on the bag. Just about all break barrels that I've worked on and handled will do this if the pivot tension isn't right.

Another advantage of the HW35 locking latch.

 

[Sqwirl57]

Yes plopping any break barrel can cause a dip in the barrel. This can be minimized a couple of ways. First obviously is not to plop the gun down on the bag. Second is having the pivot tension set right. Too loose or too tight can aggravate the situation. Too tight usually more so as the detent has to overcome the stiction of the pivot. Too loose let's the barrel bounce down more. The pivot tension adjustment is more critical on the 30s but it's less so if the gun is locking up properly on the steel parts and not the seal. A too proud breech seal can also prevent the barrel from returning to proper lock up after the barrel is bounced on the bag. Just about all break barrels that I've worked on and handled will do this if the pivot tension isn't right.

Thanks for the tip! Tomorrow I'll play with the lockup on the 30 and see what happens. I thought I had it set pretty well on that gun. I have the one side snugged just enough so the barrel doesn't drop under its own weight and then tighten the left side down. Is there a better method on these guns?

 

[Mycapt65]

The left side is the pivot bolt head. The right side is only a lock nut. The basic adjustment is first set on the left side. Then you hold the left side fixed and tighten the right side lock nut. Tightening the lock nut will further tighten the adjustment. If it's not right break loose the lock nut (right side) first then turn the bolt (left side) slightly to the needed improvement and lock it down on the right side and check again. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

It can be a real pita on any Weihrauch. It's important to get right. Also if you aren't getting consistent lock up your breech seal may be too proud. New seals stay that way a while. They eventually flatten out. If you are impatient like I am you can chuck a dowel that the breech seal fits over tightly in a hand drill and sand down the back side of the seal a thousandth or two.

As far as adjustment goes I don't necessarily use the barrel hold up method. The articulated linkage can throw wrench in the works when it's stiff and new. I generally tighten it just enough that I feel some resistance near full closing and there's little to no side play when locked. It's a learned feel and each Weihrauch will have a happy place you have to find. All of them are like that. Including the 35. They can still be too loose and have accuracy issues

 

[Sqwirl57]

The left side is the pivot bolt head. The right side is only a lock nut. The basic adjustment is first set on the left side. Then you hold the left side fixed and tighten the right side lock nut. Tightening the lock nut will further tighten the adjustment. If it's not right break loose the lock nut (right side) first then turn the bolt (left side) slightly to the needed improvement and lock it down on the right side and check again. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

It can be a real pita on any Weihrauch. It's important to get right. Also if you aren't getting consistent lock up your breech seal may be too proud. New seals stay that way a while. They eventually flatten out. If you are impatient like I am you can chuck a dowel that the breech seal fits over tightly in a hand drill and sand down the back side of the seal a thousandth or two.

As far as adjustment goes I don't necessarily use the barrel hold up method. The articulated linkage can throw wrench in the works when it's stiff and new. I generally tighten it just enough that I feel some resistance near full closing and there's little to no side play when locked. It's a learned feel and each Weihrauch will have a happy place you have to find. All of them are like that. Including the 35. They can still be too loose and have accuracy issues

Oops don't know my left from right apparently. I edited my previous comment. I meant tighten the right side nut last. Good info still and I appreciate the advice. I'll play with it some more your way instead of mine and see how it goes. Thanks again!