Are rifles/barrels really getting any better ...

[BRS]

As an aside both the FX2000 and Excalibre (basically the same action or metalwork) have quite thin 'OD' barrels semi-clamped to the air cylinder; both of those things are nowdays considered a complete NO, NO.

They are both quite long Sporter rifles, as well - what can be going-on?

 

[zebra]

"ajshoots"

"zebra"

"Kim"Interesting - thanks Harry.

All of which begs a devil's advocate question: Why, then, in recent years have benchrest scores been rising?

Because guns are better. 

You can tune any good rifle to have a tight spread at a particular point in their power curve but I find adding a good regulator will you you a tight spread across a broader range. 

People can argue forever that regulators add no value because they tuned their Air Arms to have a tight spread but I'll never be going back to unregulated guns. Never ever.

some of my regulated guns are giving me 60 consistent per fill at 50fpe and that's not with a bottle. I'm talking about tube guns. It's an improvement over the previous generation. 

My Mutant shorty gives me 48 consistent shots from a tiny reservoir. It's super accurate and I didn't need to spend a single second tuning it. It arrived like that - as did many other people's. 

Now, with all that said, not every brand has improved but overall there has been some progress. It isn't spectacular but it is there. if you gave me a choice between and FX or Daystate rifle of today vs one from 10+ years ago (or maybe more to get to the previous generation), I'd go with one from today.

Have you personally owned any high quality airguns that are 10+ years old?

Yes. Some are good. I just think there have been improvements in recent years.

 

[ajshoots]

Improvements no doubt, but no overall earth shattering improvements in recent years. Even the Impact is basically a copy of a much older design.

I don't discount the small advancements of today's airguns, but it isn't contributing to making guns significantly better. It will take major innovations and tech for large scale improvements.

If you know what is going on inside of a new airgun, you would know that not alot has changed and for that matter not alot can change. Aside from better pellets and things like helium, there isn't much more that is possible till science changes!!

 

[fe7565]

"ajshoots"Improvements no doubt, but no overall earth shattering improvements in recent years. Even the Impact is basically a copy of a much older design.

I don't discount the small advancements of today's airguns, but it isn't contributing to making guns significantly better. It will take major innovations and tech for large scale improvements.

If you know what is going on inside of a new airgun, you would know that not alot has changed and for that matter not alot can change. Aside from better pellets and things like helium, there isn't much more that is possible till science changes!!

I am surprised that the industry didn't go more towards the electronic airguns like Daystate MCT, MVT Grandprix, etc. I am also surprised that there aren't any retrofits available where you can replace mechanical valve or trigger with an electronic one. Surprised there aren't any recent rifles that have built in chrono and also digital pressure gauges for the tank and regulators, and LCD status/statistics displays. The individual parts for these are a few dollars only nowadays.

Yes, not everyone likes gadgets and that's fine, but there is a market for those who prefer these electronic advances which improve efficiency, help in tuning, and provide more smooth and more quiet operation.

 

[ajshoots]

Electronics fail and are expensive. If they had proven to be significantly better than mechanical systems, electronics would be much more prevalent. I don't even like batteries in my scopes let alone guns. I am the wrong guy to talk electronic guns with!! Lol.

 

[fe7565]

"ajshoots"Electronics fail and are expensive. If they had proven to be significantly better than mechanical systems, electronics would be much more prevalent. I don't even like batteries in my scopes let alone guns. I am the wrong guy to talk electronic guns with!! Lol.

Oh...you are one of Them! OK...

 

[ajshoots]

I love tech as long as it is my phone, TV, or computer. No electronics in my guns. My phones, computers and tv's break alot. I own guns both firearms and airguns that are over 30 years old and function like new. When electronics last that long without fail, I might start to change my mind?

 

[BRS]

On Electronics & Airguns - I've seen people using their Daystate rifles tightly wrapped in clingfilm (when it's raining) !

 

[fe7565]

"BRS"On Electronics & Airguns - I've seen people using their Daystate rifles tightly wrapped in clingfilm (when it's raining) !

That's hilarious! Apparently, they were ok to pay $2K for their Daystates, but ignorant enough to learn about it. Daystate coates their circuit boards so they are waterproof. I take a shower with mine everyday This was tested by the UK Airgunner Magazine (March 2010) issue. http://verminhunter.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7686

As well explained by this gent from the SA airgun forum who reveled at the stupidity of some Daystate users who messed around with their rifles without knowing anything about it. Their loss was his gain...

https://www.airrifle.co.za/threads/18335-The-Daystate-electronic-air-rifles-de-mystified

 

[zebra]

"ajshoots"Improvements no doubt, but no overall earth shattering improvements in recent years. Even the Impact is basically a copy of a much older design.

I don't discount the small advancements of today's airguns, but it isn't contributing to making guns significantly better. It will take major innovations and tech for large scale improvements.

If you know what is going on inside of a new airgun, you would know that not alot has changed and for that matter not alot can change. Aside from better pellets and things like helium, there isn't much more that is possible till science changes!!

Agreed. The improvements are not earth shattering in terms of technological advancement. It's mostly small gains. The Daystate Airwolf is a little better than the MK3, The Impact gets more shots per fill from it's bottle than the FX Royal etc.

I think the biggest improvement is noticeable when you look at the industry as a whole. We are seeing more of the features that used to be reserved for higher end guns becoming available on mid and lower priced guns. 

We are also seeing ergonomic improvements with the bullpup market.

I think there is more collective knowledge on how to tune air guns and make valves efficient too. Some of this knowledge can of course be retroactively applied to the older air rifles too (which throws off the data). 

The problem with electronics for me is my perception that (like every other electronic device I own), in a few years the battery won't hold it's charge as well anymore. There will be an update that causes problems, there will be an issue that no longer has the tech support for it to be fixed etc. 

I also don't like the idea that it can't be fixed by a regular air gunsmith. I have this vision of me having to wait for weeks or months while it is sent back to the manufacturer when the electronics fail (followed by a huge repair bill). 

I honestly don't know how much of my perception reflects reality but that brings me to the next issue which is that the electronics solve a problem I don't have. I.e. I can't see an advantage to electronic firing systems over high quality mechanical valves with regulators. So why risk it?

There is also the price. I think electronic systems should be cheaper, not more expensive. It's like the difference between a Rolex and a Casio digital watch (the one with the mini calculator). The Rolex is a precision instrument requiring great skill to make. It may not have a calculator but it's internals are amazing to look at. It doesn't need batteries either.

The electric sole noida that operate electronic firing systems are very cheap. You can buy one and install it on any air gun. You could also take one off a relatively cheap paintball gun and voila, an electronic mouse click trigger. 

 

[fe7565]

@ajshoot and @zebra, both of you made valid points. I really can't argue against most of them, and it seems to come down to personal preference if you are willing to "risk" the issues involved with electronics as well explained by zebra: ...."The problem with electronics for me is my perception that (like every other electronic device I own), in a few years the battery won’t hold it’s charge as well anymore. There will be an update that causes problems, there will be an issue that no longer has the tech support for it to be fixed etc. I also don’t like the idea that it can’t be fixed by a regular air gunsmith. I have this vision of me having to wait for weeks or months while it is sent back to the manufacturer when the electronics fail (followed by a huge repair bill). ...."

I had my growing pains with my Airwolf MVT and the subsequent repair bills, but I opted to embrace and marvel about the technology built inside. At the same time, I do understand that others may not want to go that route. I am that type who would try a TESLA first (if I could afford), just like I jumped on the FX Impact. In some cases I get burnt, but at all times I did careful research and then rolled the dice But I do see why mechanical airguns provide a great amount of self-reliance vs electronics. And with that self-reliance comes a certain sense of satisfaction that you have and will have a piece of machinery you can fix with your own hands and operate well into the future. With electronics often you are at the the whim of the manufacturer's updates, service quality, and commitment to an older model. 

 

[zebra]

"fe7565"@ajshoot and @zebra, both of you made valid points. I really can't argue against most of them, and it seems to come down to personal preference if you are willing to "risk" the issues involved with electronics as well explained by zebra: ...."The problem with electronics for me is my perception that (like every other electronic device I own), in a few years the battery won’t hold it’s charge as well anymore. There will be an update that causes problems, there will be an issue that no longer has the tech support for it to be fixed etc. I also don’t like the idea that it can’t be fixed by a regular air gunsmith. I have this vision of me having to wait for weeks or months while it is sent back to the manufacturer when the electronics fail (followed by a huge repair bill). ...."

I had my growing pains with my Airwolf MVT and the subsequent repair bills, but I opted to embrace and marvel about the technology built inside. At the same time, I do understand that others may not want to go that route. I am that type who would try a TESLA first (if I could afford), just like I jumped on the FX Impact. In some cases I get burnt, but at all times I did careful research and then rolled the dice But I do see why mechanical airguns provide a great amount of self-reliance vs electronics. And with that self-reliance comes a certain sense of satisfaction that you have and will have a piece of machinery you can fix with your own hands and operate well into the future. With electronics often you are at the the whim of the manufacturer's updates, service quality, and commitment to an older model. 

To be fair I have not seen a bunch of threads about people who own the older electronic Daystates being stuck without the ability to buy parts or get them fixed. Daystate is a great company in my opinion and if I was going to trust anyone with an electronic option, it would be them.

I guess I just wish the electronics did more than they currently do. They could have replaced the non-ergonomic side lever on the Pulsar with a push button cocking system. They could make it semi-auto without hurting accuracy like a blow-back / gas tube semi auto would. They could allow the user to switch between semi auto and manual indexing depending on what they are doing etc.

For benchrest the electronic triggers could have huge advantage. They could make it so the trigger was separate to the main gun body so it could be fired without any influence from the shooter on the rifles position. Like a trigger on the end of a wire like some pro photographers use on their cameras. 

When I read about the electronics, I like the story about how it makes it so efficient etc but then I see the number of shots they get from a bottle compared to what I see for the Cricket, Mutant and Wildcat and it doesn't seem any more efficient. I haven't done the math comparing shots vs tube size vs power but the electronic system looks to be slightly less efficient in air usage. 

I also don't get why they still have a bell curve if the electronics adjusts power based on the pressure level in the tank. If I do that manually on my Career 707 which has a modified power wheel that goes from 5 to 100 ft lb, I can eliminate the bell curve. There is still a shot to shot variation but it doesn't start off lower, creep high, flatten out and then drop. 

With all that said, I'd still like to try one at some point. Maybe the next gem will make better use of the tech.