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Are all guns accurate?

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Septicdeath said:
All airguns I've ever shot are accurate. Its their inherent nature. But some are slightly better than others.

Accurate and precise. Precise but not accurate. Both are usually achieved from rest. unless you're an Olympic shooter.

Accurate, but not Precise, is what a hunter hopes to achieve from an off-hand shooting position, which is what I personally strive for.

Neither Accurate nor Precise. What none of us wants to do.

Most depends upon the shooter.

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Nice demonstration
 
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jarmstrong said:
NO!!! not all guns are good, I got a SPA P15, 25 cal from a garage in Arkansas that would NOT print a 2 inch group at 10 yds, a true piece of dog poop,,,
rebarreled with a LW barrel and more internal work, turned it in to a fine shooter.
I still have that barrel looking for a place to shove it,,, has a tight spot 2 inch from the crown that squeezes the pellet to a smaller diameter, from there it just bounces out of the barrel, to what ever direction it wants to go, helter skelter,,, I was one pissed off'ed buyer back when I first got into PCP
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That goes back to my opening statements
 
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Ballisticboy said:
When people say they want a definition of accuracy, in the ballistics world there is a definition which is nothing to do with group sizes, and it is the same definition in the US as it is in Europe.

The official definition of accuracy is the distance between the centre of a group and the aim point. The group size is defined as precision in the US, dispersion in the UK. The definitions were introduced so that everyone would know what everyone else was talking about. Unfortunately, the vast majority of shooters still use their own definitions. The reason the group size definitions are different in the US and the UK is because we use precision as a combination of dispersion and accuracy, so here one shot one hit on the target would be high precision.
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Great explanation and on point! Thank you sir
 
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JimD said:
I am confident that finding a pellet the gun likes is very important as is making sure all the screws are tight and a decent scope that will hold zero but I am also confident that not all barrels are equally accurate (which isn't exactly the question asked). I will use my three P35s to demonstrate.

My most accurate P35 is the 22 caliber. It shoots lots of pellets pretty well but came turned a bit "hot" so the light ones go too fast for best accuracy. JSB 18s were pretty good but were still going over 900 fps and H&N Baracuda Match (21g) gave me a couple 3 shot groups that looked like one hole groups. So I have standardized with them. They go about 835 fps. It has now produced one 200 target at the 30 yard challenge and three 199 targets. This is a $430 gun with a sub $200 scope competing with guns costing 3 times as much or more. It has a good barrel. Doesn't need cleaning often either.

It's little brother, my P35-177, has fired a lot more shots at targets trying to get it to the same standard. But it's best is a 194 at the 30 yard challenge. Still plenty good enough to pop a squirrel in the head (which is has done multiple times) but not as accurate as the 22. I've tried polishing the bore and cleaned up the crown on all my P35s and swapping scopes but it just doesn't shoot as well as the 22. But it is still a good rifle and I consider it to be accurate.

My first P35 was a 25 because that is all Krale had when I ordered it. I liked it so much I bought the other two. It is short (well under 30 inches) and light (5 lbs or so without scope) and accurate. The trigger comes set too heavy (seems to be the norm these days) but is not hard to adjust down to about a pound. It is not terribly consistent, however, and varies several ounces from pull to pull. But it's a neat gun. I killed 18 squirrels with it the first year I had it. The only time it missed may have been when I tried shooting through some twigs (got the squirrel but not from the shot through the twigs). The crown on this gun looks like somebody drilled out about an inch of the rifling trying to fix the crown. I have polished the crown as best I can and the rifling too. It will sometimes give me a 1/4 inch 25 yard 3 shot group but only sometimes. It's best on the 30 yard challenge is a 154 if I remember right. Despite more work than my other too it is just not nearly as accurate. I've ordered another barrel for it from SPA through Krale and hope that gets it to the level of at least the 177. I will be ecstatic if it gets to the 22s level of accuracy. But is it "accurate". For hitting squirrels dependably at 35 yards or under it has demonstrated the answer is yes. For hitting the 1/8th inch 10 ring of the 30 yard challenge target at 30 yards consistently, it is not accurate enough.

Not all airguns are equally accurate. All my airguns are accurate enough for me to enjoy them, however. But I rarely shoot a 30 yard challenge target with the P35-25. Just isn't as much fun as using the P35-22 for that. I agree with the OP that the shooter makes more difference than the gun in the vast majority of circumstances. But nobody is going to shoot a 200 with my P35-25 without a new barrel on it. At some point the gun does make a difference.
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Great write up thanks for the read I enjoyed it!
 
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Chris_K said:
I think that all air rifles are inherently accurate. The caveats are that you need to find the correct projectile (diameter and weight) for a specific distance. For some guns, that distance may only be 10 feet, like my son's Daisy Buck BB gun. Now if you want precision thrown in there you may be limiting yourself even further as the two windows need to overlap.
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Yes sir you got it. Thank you for your post
 
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Mycapt65 said:
Perhaps, but what's the cost of making a crap gun accurate. A perfect example would be common scenario from a popular rimfire forum. I know that's not air rifles but hang on. I'm using this as an example that applies to air rifles. Anyway some people there brag about their sub MOA Ruger 1022s. Now most factory 1022s are complete crap. They're made to function and hit beer cans at 25 yards. And you're lucky if you get better than that. They're a lot like a box store break barrels.

When you ask the guy what's in his 1022 to make it shoot sub MOA. He tells you about a $1000 of aftermarket pieces including the trigger, stock, barrel, etc, etc. The only original part might be the receiver. So for twelve hundred dollars he's got an accurate 1022. It's just as much a Ruger 1022 as an Oldsmobile tube frame, carbon fiber bodied funny car running a Chrysler Hemi engine is an Oldsmobile.

My point is accuracy can very often be improved on many platforms but not all can be made accurate without replacing all the parts. The cost of which could be impractical. Like the $1200 sub MOA 1022. The same $1200 could get you a much better complete gun. Or two. There's simply a practical accuracy limit on each specific rifle. That limit is determined by your talent and budget.

The again if you're definition of "accurate" is hitting beer cans at 25 yards then you're probably right.
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Absolutely! If your target range is 25yds and you’re hitting that target consistently then yes that gun is most definitely accurate at 25yds!
 
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Long_Gun_Dallas said:
I've had a couple that were not. I've had 5 factory .22 crosman barrels for either 13xx or 22xx that were all lousy shooters. Factory hatsan .177 on my nova star was beyond irritating. Had all manner of high and low spots in the bore. Shot great for 3 or 4 shots, then sent one flying off course. Rinse and repeat.
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So you had bad barrels and not inaccurate guns is what it sounds like 😌
 
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rangur1 said:
That’s perfectly fine obviously. We just , by and large , we’re not necessarily on the same page. You have cleared up much. Now by this measure, most barrels will fit the bill. Comes down to consistently powered rounds, and shooter skills, which you seem to have in hand.
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Yes sir! Without a scope would the conversation be the same? Would the narrative be an accurate gun or accurate shooter, if using open sights?
 
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dgeesaman said:
Well my opinion is that not all guns can shoot the same, not even close. I have a couple of PCPs that will make a .22 cal hole with .177 pellets all day long (not exaggerating) at 10m shooting from a rest. I have also tried to 'fix' a .22 break barrel that could barely make 10 shots stay in 2 inches at 10m. Lacking a better definition, one end of this is good and one end of this is not good. Aka bad. The difference was so drastic that even me shooting offhand would see a significant difference (and I'm pretty bad shooting offhand).

"When I say "accurate" I mean hit what you aim at!"
Well if you always hit what you aim at, you're either shooting at live targets responsibly, or shooting at stationary targets that aren't challenging enough. Put some high magnification sights and aim at a small enough target and you will definitely miss. Furthermore, you should develop the skill over time to know when you held the aim properly and the shot missed because of equipment vs. when you don't have a good hold or trigger pull or wind read and it was the shooter.

There are less drastic examples but the difference from rifle to rifle is very real. It just takes a suitably controlled environment and enough good data.
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Respectable opinion thank you
 
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Crabbypatties said:
Are all rifle’s accurate or should I say all barrels? Never came across a gun that wasn’t a good shooter even the less expensive and break barrels. Any have different opinions? I know one has to find that matching ammo and pressure
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Haven't read every reply in this thread but here is my answer.
All rifles are accurate under the right conditions, the higher the variance in the "conditions" the lower the potential accuracy will be.
To compensate for this manufacturers add more features to the gun which in turn increases the price but allows for a higher variance in "conditions".

The most common conditions that can affect accuracy:
Range
Wind
Weather

Rifle barrel length and weight
Rifle stock
Rifle weight
Butt plate
How the rifle works mechanically
Regulated or not
Plenum or none
Size of plenum

Shooting platform
Platform stability
Platform rigidity

Weight of ammo
Length of ammo
Shape of ammo
Speed of ammo
Die used to make the ammo

And finally the shooter, the most important part of the equation. A person who has never drawn a picture vs a professional will achieve completely different results using the exact same pen, same goes for a person who has used a rifle for 10 years vs a person using it for the first time.

If we eliminate the shooter from the equation and assume 100% of the performance comes from the rifle then we need to take all of the above (except the last) into consideration to determine if a rifle is accurate or not.

Example 1:
Unregulated .22 caliber rifle that shoots a 20gr pellet at 800 fps.

With the above the only thing we can affect is the ammo if all other conditions are perfect. First we can lower the weight to increase the speed of the pellet, we can also change the shape of the pellet. Certain pellets have better accuracy at shorter distance, I have never tried it but I would assume wadcutters wouldn't be very accurate at 100yards.
The problem is that every rifle has it's own preference in ammo weight, length and shape. You have to experiment to find the pellet with the perfect fit for your rifle, at the same time you might find the perfect fit but that doesn't mean it will work in another rifle of the same model. Small differences in machining can affect these things but it's not noticeable at shorter ranges.

Example 2:
Regulated .22 caliber rifle with plenum that shoots a 20gr pellet at 800fps.

With example 2 you can adjust the rifle to fit the ammo instead of the other way around. You can do a lot of experimenting to find the best settings that fit the ammo you shoot. You can memorize or write down the exact settings that give the best results for several different types/brands of ammo.
Same problem as above though, the exact same settings on your gun might not be optimal on an identical rifle.

Here comes the part that ruins everything... you can buy the exact same ammo you have always done for the past 5 years but suddenly your rifle isn't accurate anymore. Reason for this can be the die used when manufacturing the ammo. Manufacturers can have several machines manufacturing the same ammo but microscopic wear and tear can create small changes that affect accuracy in different ways. If you have 2 tins of ammo, 1 from machine 1 and the other from machine 2, when shooting ammo from one tin you might get completely different results from the other tin.

So the only way to get the best of all worlds is to manufacture everything yourself but this is almost always impossible.

TLDR: All rifles are accurate but only under that rifles preferred conditions of which range is probably the most important.
Additional features on the rifle can increase the variables the rifle itself can correct for but this adds extra costs to the rifle.
A regulated rifle allows you to tweak the gun to fit the ammo which is much harder/impossible to do on an unregulated gun.

This is what I believe from my own experience but then again...
idiot.jpg
 
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MadCowCrazy2 said:
Haven't read every reply in this thread but here is my answer.
All rifles are accurate under the right conditions, the higher the variance in the "conditions" the lower the potential accuracy will be.
To compensate for this manufacturers add more features to the gun which in turn increases the price but allows for a higher variance in "conditions".

The most common conditions that can affect accuracy:
Range
Wind
Weather

Rifle barrel length and weight
Rifle stock
Rifle weight
Butt plate
How the rifle works mechanically
Regulated or not
Plenum or none
Size of plenum

Shooting platform
Platform stability
Platform rigidity

Weight of ammo
Length of ammo
Shape of ammo
Speed of ammo
Die used to make the ammo

And finally the shooter, the most important part of the equation. A person who has never drawn a picture vs a professional will achieve completely different results using the exact same pen, same goes for a person who has used a rifle for 10 years vs a person using it for the first time.

If we eliminate the shooter from the equation and assume 100% of the performance comes from the rifle then we need to take all of the above (except the last) into consideration to determine if a rifle is accurate or not.

Example 1:
Unregulated .22 caliber rifle that shoots a 20gr pellet at 800 fps.

With the above the only thing we can affect is the ammo if all other conditions are perfect. First we can lower the weight to increase the speed of the pellet, we can also change the shape of the pellet. Certain pellets have better accuracy at shorter distance, I have never tried it but I would assume wadcutters wouldn't be very accurate at 100yards.
The problem is that every rifle has it's own preference in ammo weight, length and shape. You have to experiment to find the pellet with the perfect fit for your rifle, at the same time you might find the perfect fit but that doesn't mean it will work in another rifle of the same model. Small differences in machining can affect these things but it's not noticeable at shorter ranges.

Example 2:
Regulated .22 caliber rifle with plenum that shoots a 20gr pellet at 800fps.

With example 2 you can adjust the rifle to fit the ammo instead of the other way around. You can do a lot of experimenting to find the best settings that fit the ammo you shoot. You can memorize or write down the exact settings that give the best results for several different types/brands of ammo.
Same problem as above though, the exact same settings on your gun might not be optimal on an identical rifle.

Here comes the part that ruins everything... you can buy the exact same ammo you have always done for the past 5 years but suddenly your rifle isn't accurate anymore. Reason for this can be the die used when manufacturing the ammo. Manufacturers can have several machines manufacturing the same ammo but microscopic wear and tear can create small changes that affect accuracy in different ways. If you have 2 tins of ammo, 1 from machine 1 and the other from machine 2, when shooting ammo from one tin you might get completely different results from the other tin.

So the only way to get the best of all worlds is to manufacture everything yourself but this is almost always impossible.

TLDR: All rifles are accurate but only under that rifles preferred conditions of which range is probably the most important.
Additional features on the rifle can increase the variables the rifle itself can correct for but this adds extra costs to the rifle.
A regulated rifle allows you to tweak the gun to fit the ammo which is much harder/impossible to do on an unregulated gun.

This is what I believe from my own experience but then again...
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Nice read and good job explaining your opinion. Thank you!
 
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