Are A/0 and S/F scopes necessary?

[boscoebrea]

Matthias got it! I do not shoot much shorter distances than 25 yds,some scopes without parallax adjustment become a bit "off".
Given my druthers, I would always have parallax for air gun scopes.

 

[karl_h]

I can’t stand parallax adjustable scopes for hunting. After a bunch of squirrel hunting with my airguns, yesterday I was sitting in my tree scoping deer throughout the day with my .444 T/C Encore. I was so happy not having to play with a wheel every time I saw something. I believe if someone built a 4-12 50 yard parallax scope with all the crap that airgungunners like, jumbo turrets and crazy reticles, they would sell a bunch. I know I would transplant it onto my Airguns once I hit the woods. I shot plenty of blurry squirrels this year.

Ditto on adjustable parallax for hunting. Although I do have a side focus scope on my custom Gre-Tan 7mm-08. I have gone back and forth over the years about my decision to take the S&B zenith flash dot off of it to put on the tactical scope. When hunting with it, I just leave it set at 100 yards and don't touch it, never been an issue. But at way over 2lbs on the tactical scope, I miss my S&B on it. Come to think about it, I think after nearly 15 years I'm going to put that S&B back on it. I don't have a long range private place to shoot any longer and where I hunt these days there is no place where I can possibly shoot a deer past 125 yards, which negates any possible plus to having the expensive tactical scope on it.

 

[Trucker3573]

I agree with you for sure. I mean I don’t shoot ten yards. To each there own but I’d rather watch paint dry. If it is a hunting situation and it’s 10 yards what does it really matter if the animal isn’t quite in perfect focus? It’s 10 yards.

 

[karl_h]

I agree with you for sure. I mean I don’t shoot ten yards. To each there own but I’d rather watch paint dry. If it is a hunting situation and it’s 10 yards what does it really matter if the animal isn’t quite in perfect focus? It’s 10 yards.

When I was young, middle school young, I'd shoot a lot at less than 10 yards in my neighbor's basement. Low power springers and co2. My friends dad preferred us shooting there than outside and set us up a range and good trap, could only shoot outside at longer range with his dad watching us. I'm sure he just didn't want us doing what every young kid does, shoot critters.

If I had a basement today, I would have an inexpensive but accurate low powered pistol to shoot there, probably a rifle too.

 

[MACTEN]

I still use the head bob/weave to be sure, even when I've dialed the parallax adjustment in so it's a clear picture. But yes, I think that if someone want's to tiny groups at under 100 yards they are almost a necessity. I know some people can somehow do this without a parallax adjustable scope, just not me.

 

[peaceful_ruler]

It seems to me that applications and magnification are important in this discussion. If I’m only trying to group inside of 5” out to 250 yards with a >12X scope for big game hunting than having a fixed parallax is totally acceptable imo.

On the other hand, if I’m attempting to shoot the bullseye @ 10 meters indoors one day and then hit a squirrel in the head at 90 meters the next….yeah, I’m definitely going to need adjustable parallax; for IQ and parallax/accuracy reasons.Especially if it’s a high magnification scope for IQ reasons.

It seems like 6X and lower requires almost no side focusing because of the wide depth of field??

 

[killen1956]

shoot what makes you happy if you think parallax is not needed go for it I NEED IT

 

[Mycapt65]

➔ And many springer shooters have declared WHY they like springers — springers are straight-forward and simple — no support equipment, no bells, no whistles, no complications.
The springer shooters' personal gun preference for the beauty of simplicity probably often extends to their scope preference. So, simpler scopes are often perceived as better (fixed parallax, fixed magnification, no turret dialing).

Matthias

I definitely fit this philosophy. I am satisfied with the level of accuracy, reliability and functional capabilities of my springers. I mostly use them for plinking and casual target shooting. I have the option of powder burners if I ever want more power than my springers. Not everyone has that option so I understand the attraction to PCP.

 

[Mycapt65]

It seems to me that applications and magnification are important in this discussion. If I’m only trying to group inside of 5” out to 250 yards with a >12X scope for big game hunting than having a fixed parallax is totally acceptable imo.

On the other hand, if I’m attempting to shoot the bullseye @ 10 meters indoors one day and then hit a squirrel in the head at 90 meters the next….yeah, I’m definitely going to need adjustable parallax; for IQ and parallax/accuracy reasons.Especially if it’s a high magnification scope for IQ reasons.

It seems like 6X and lower requires almost no side focusing because of the wide depth of field??

Not sure what you mean by IQ reasons?
Yes lower power scopes typically have a wider depth of field which allows them to be in focus at closer range. The higher the magnification (and larger the objective lense size) the greater the potential parallax error. If you're running a high magnification scope from ten yards to 90 yards as in your example an AO/SF scope is absolutely necessary.

My point of the thread was not to say that AO/SF scopes are bad and don't have their place. It was to point out that in some scenarios they are unnecessary and sometimes detrimental. Whether or not you ever shoot those scenarios is up to you. People seem to be locked into the concept that all airguns require AO/SF scopes. It's just not true in all cases. Even with PBs the narrower depth of field of AO/SF scopes can create problems in some scenarios. Particularly if you hunt afoot in mixed terrain. I know this first hand.

Parralax error can be eliminated entirely in every instance if you look straight down the center of the scope. IMO having a constant clear image is more important than the steps necessary to correct potential parallax error.

This is a subjective topic and I'm just putting this out there because this is what I've found and works well for some of my shooting and hunting scenarios. I still want AO SF scopes on my benched target rifles air or otherwise.

 

[dizzums]

id say yes for higher power, but one situation that sucks is grabbing an ao scoped gun for that quick shot on a critter, and its focused way out .. giving a big scope the 'reach around' trying to twist on that thing on the end and youll wind up missing the shot ..

 

[JungleShooter]

People seem to be locked into the concept that all airguns require AO/SF scopes.

Ron,

I definitely was one of those people!!
Until this thread....
I have since realized my one-sided view of this issue.


My own shooting scenarios call for scopes that do it all — so I'll keep buying
• SF scopes,
• with large objective lenses,
• huge magnification ranges,
• target turrets,
• with revolution counters, and
• zero stops,
the works....!!


But I will stop looking down on shooters that choose the simple straight forward way of airgunning.
(I'm sorry for my attitude — I hope that attitude never surfaced in my posts.)

Matthias

 

[FarmPlinker]

I know some of the low end 4x airgun scopes are listed for 35 yards.

 

[Geezerhood]

My point of the thread was not to say that AO/SF scopes are bad and don't have their place. It was to point out that in some scenarios they are unnecessary and sometimes detrimental. Whether or not you ever shoot those scenarios is up to you. People seem to be locked into the concept that all airguns require AO/SF scopes. It's just not true in all cases. Even with PBs the narrower depth of field of AO/SF scopes can create problems in some scenarios. Particularly if you hunt afoot in mixed terrain. I know this first hand.

By narrower depth of field are you meaning when the AO is set to a closer distance, or that the depth of field is less on an AO version vs non AO model of the same scope if both are set to the same distance?

What is it about adding an AO parallax focus to a scope that makes it now have narrower depth of field if used at the same zoom range and the same parallax free distance as a non AO scope of the same design? I have adjusted the parallax on fixed focus scopes before and saw no change in the depth of field at a specific focus distance, but of course the depth of field is less when focused closer, which is exactly what an AO scope is doing and the same as a NON AO scope that has the factory focus at the same distance as the AO has been changed to. I have also used AO and non AO versions of the same model scope and there was no difference in the depth of field when both were set to the same parallax free distance and zoom setting.

There definitely is reduced depth of field IF the focus is set for a closer distance than a non AO or AO model of the same scope that if focused for a longer distance. I don't feel that is detrimental in any way. It is just the way optics work. If you don't want reduced depth of field when hunting then simply set the AO to the same distance it would be at with a fixed focus version of the same scope, and leave it there. On an AO scope the only thing different, everything else being equal is that the front lens element or group can be moved forward and back to change the parallax focus. If the objective diameter is LARGER on the AO model vs the non AO model, then yes, there will be less depth of field than a smaller objective version. You can increase the depth of field and the Parallax of an AO or a non AO with a simple iris reduction filter. There are fixed ones and adjustable ones. In fact you can focus the AO significantly closer and still get no parallax and greater depth of focus at the same distance you would with no the iris filter. It works just like stopping down a camera lens iris for increasing depth of field.

I don't know 100% if side focus adjustable scopes work the same mechanically as AO versions, but they probably do. I just have not ever played with a fixed focus and a side focus of the exact same scope model before to verify that as there are very (none?) few duplicate models like that out there where one has no focus an the other has a side focus. There also aren't very many identical models out there where the only difference is AO vs Fixed Focus but I have had a few over the years.

 

[c_m_shooter]

I have multiple airguns (Weihrauch springers) and powder burners from rimfire to 7mm-08. Almost all with AO and SF scopes on them. I've missed several "targets of opportunity" that suddenly appear where my magnification and or parallax focus wasn't set for. At close range when set for long range the field of view was too small and target out of focus. And when shifting from close range, say ten yards to out to a hundred the field of view would be fine but the target would be blurry. Both cases I'd needed to adjust the AO/SF and possibly the magnification.

I'm in the process of converting my field rifles to fixed focus and sometimes magnification.

My 177 Hw50 is used for hunting squirrels, out to 40 yards and plinking silhouettes, spinners and beer cans from ten to hundred yards. Last year I bought a cheap 4x32 Hawke Vantage mildot scope for it with plans to adjust the 100yd fixed parallax down to 35 or so. Unfortunately I couldn't break the objective ring free and was stuck with a hundred yard fixed parallax.

In outdoor light it was perfectly in focus for me at eleven yards. Still completely usable at ten yards and passable at ten yards in the dimmer basement. At the field target range it was nice to go back and forth rapidly between a ten yard and a hundred yard targets without touching the scope.

I just read a thread where people were questioning the intelligence of people who'd buy a 60 yard fixed parallax scope for an airgun. Yes if you need high magnification at ten yards you need adjustable parallax for the target to be in focus. If you don't, a low power scope with a fixed parallax is fine if you consistently center your eye to eliminate parallax error.

Parallax is less an issue than most people think. Here's the first five shots out of my Hw50 with a fixed hundred yard parallax scope today at ten yards in the basement. This is where parallax error should be huge. Yes it's low and right but that's because it was last zeroed outdoors at 25 yards.

There's lots of benefits to simplifying your field rig. Sometimes less is more. This is one of my most fun and accurate guns to shoot at all practical ranges. Don't think you always need an AO or SF scope. Certainly don't question people's intelligence for using fixed scopes. Here's an airgun with a hundred yard fixed parallax scope and it works great.
Ymmv

View attachment 309802

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You could very easily leave your adjustable scope set at 4 or 6x and 40 yards if you wanted to.

 

[Mycapt65]

You could very easily leave your adjustable scope set at 4 or 6x and 40 yards if you wanted to.

You could. And it might be fine for most applications.

 

[Mycapt65]

Interested in some of the suggestions and questions posed by some I decided to do a side by side comparison. I used one 3-9x40 Hawke Vantage with a AO and one with a factory set 100 yard fixed parallax.

My initial impression was the AO and the fixed scope did indeed have the same depth of field when set at 100yds. Stuff that was in focus at one magnification and distance was indeed in focus on both scopes when set the same.

This had me ready to eat crow. I still remember missing shots on near targets of opportunity because the scope was out of focus from shooting 100yds. I also remember having to adjust the AO for my girlfriend when she went from 25 to 100yds. She couldn't find the beer can on the berm.

I know that there was other times the AO needed to be adjusted. It was a pita so I bought the straight 4x32 Hawke non AO. Like the other gentleman I've adjusted the parallax on several scopes. My intentions were to change the 100yd fixed parallax to 40 or 50 yards. Unfortunately I couldn't break the lock ring and left it at 100yds since the scope was already very clear from eleven yards out.

The Hw50 was just a joy to shoot with that lightweight 4x scope at all normal outdoor distances. In the dim basement at ten yards its a little blurry. I learned to shoot the gun and parallax has been a non issue. Wanting to share my discovery I posted this thread.

For certain types of shooting this package seems to work better for me than an AO but why doesn't my theory test true in today's side by side comparison??

After messing around with both scopes and trying to remember the scenarios that turned me on to the fixed parallax scopes, I figured it out. It's actually two things that contributed to my AO frustration.

When set for ten yards an AO will be blurry when moving out to 100yds. So an AO scope set at ten yards does have a somewhat narrower depth of field than a scope fixed at 100yds. This is why I remember having to adjust the AO when moving from near ranges to far ranges.

What about my memories of missing shots when moving from 100 to 10 or 15 yards and having to adjust the scope to find the target. This is where I eat crow. The reason I couldn't find my targets and or they were blurry had more to do with the scope being left on high magnification from shooting 100yds. Most cases 9x. Whether it was a fixed 100yds parallax scope or an AO set for 100 both will be blurry on 9x at 10 or 15 yards. Probably still blurry at 25 yards.

Both test scopes were in focus in close at 3x. My straight 4x works for me probably more because it's low power and and it has a huge depth of field. Shooting closely at high power requires an AO and that's gonna need adjusting to to move out far. Yes testing shows that the 3-9x40 AO could possibly function well enough for hunting at all magnifications if set at 40 yards as suggested by someone here.

Bottom line is I was wrong about depth of field when set at same parallax. I was right that the depth of field shortens when the AO is adjusted very closely. More noticeable at higher magnification.

This has been a learning experience for me as I discovered my problem was more to do with using and leaving the scope on high power.

 

[Mike_Lenardon]

Borrow a sscope with an adjustable objective. Or buy a cheap one and return it later. You need to see the difference for yourself. I have one fixed parralax scope, I bird watch with it.

 

[Mycapt65]

Borrow a sscope with an adjustable objective. Or buy a cheap one and return it later. You need to see the difference for yourself. I have one fixed parralax scope, I bird watch with it.

Not sure who your referring to. I have seven or eight Airmax scopes, four or five Vantage AO scopes, three Prostaff 5 SF scopes and two Vortex Viper SF scopes. All mounted on various air and powder rifles. I don't need to borrow one to see the difference. I still believe that AO and SF is not necessarily needed for air rifles. Yes if you need to shoot 12x at ten yards.

 

[Motorhead]

We will need to AGREE that we are going to DISAGREE ..... For the most part anyways
For most "Air Rifles" shots threw its lifetime are going to be inside 50 yards.
Very few non AO/SF optics are factory set to under 100Y parallax. There are SOME that may go 35 or 50Y and with those indeed you can use and be just fine on an air rifles at these shorter distances.

Biggest issue one faces is to understand what parrilax errors create Unless one has a near bionic head/neck and able to place it in the EXACT same position irregardless of distance ... your going to have retical position shift due to parallax error tied to differing head & eye position.
It is a fact one either finds of little too no importance, or is very aware of and plays the head bobble game to find the best centered eye position.

There no free lunch here .... Precision shooting threw a MONO TUBE rifle scope the parrilax if correct or not does matter.

 

[rangur1]

Thinking a sightmark or swamp fox with a BDC reticle may foot the bill. Either fixed or LPVO. Should allow a fairly wide close shooting distance.