Any true sub moa airgun challenge

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Im really interested to see are there any. More you read this forum more you see everyone having one but yet I never seen one or think its even possible with pellets especially outdoors and really hard even indoors due microclimate changes are enough to push pellets out from meeting moa. Slugs maybe possible indoors but 24/7/365 outdoors just no.

If you think you have sub moa gun shoot 10targets with 10shots in same session and meet that requirment at 100yds everytime. If you truely have one it should be hard! Now lets see who has the most acurate gun but Im 1000% sure we wont be seeing 10 x 10shot sub moa groups anytime soon 😎
 
Joonas - Have never been to Finland but it’s on my list to see when it’s again safe to travel.

When I saw the title of your post, I just had to read it.

Im not aware of any sub MOA 100 yard Benchrest challenges, but there are a couple 75 and 100 yard virtual EBR challenges in the Benchrest category. You should check out those threads.

For most of the average and serious competition BR shooters, it’s difficult enough to regularly shoot a 5-shot MOA Target at 100 yards. Not only that, but the focus of those events is on ‘scoring’ vs. group shooting to test skills and accuracy. 

I don’t think we will see too many ( if any) sub-MOA 100 yard challenges with air rifles. Anyone who claims that they can “consistently” shoot MOA or even under an inch ( or., sub-MOA) outdoors, I would be suspicious of that statement. It happens, members do it all the time. The key word here is can it be done “consistently” and with several or more 5-shot groups? 

Like you mentioned, it’s hard to imagine anyone shooting sub MOA at 100 yards outdoors; especially with a total shot sequence of 25 - 50 shots as an example. 

Heck, I’m happy if I get one or two MOA scoring groups at 100 yards once in a while.

Tom 


 
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Joonas - Have never been to Finland but it’s on my list to see when it’s again safe to travel.

When I saw the title of your post, I just had to read it.

Im not aware of any sub MOA 100 yard Benchrest challenges, but there are a couple 75 and 100 yard virtual EBR challenges in the Benchrest category. You should check out those threads.

For most of the average and serious competition BR shooters, it’s difficult enough to regularly shoot a 5-shot MOA Target at 100 yards. Not only that, but the focus of those events is on ‘scoring’ vs. group shooting to test skills and accuracy. 

I don’t think we will see too many ( if any) sub-MOA 100 yard challenges with air rifles. Anyone who claims that they can “consistently” shoot MOA or even under an inch ( or., sub-MOA) outdoors, I would be suspicious of that statement. It happens, members do it all the time. The key word here is can it be done “consistently” and with several or more 5-shot groups? 

Like you mentioned, it’s hard to imagine anyone shooting sub MOA at 100 yards outdoors; especially with a total shot sequence of 25 - 50 shots as an example. 

Heck, I’m happy if I get one or two MOA scoring groups at 100 yards once in a while.

Tom 

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You probably heading to lapland? Finland is rather boring country not much to see unless you like low population, nature, peace, ppl who dont smile and extreme cold weather lol.

Yeah man I 100% agree with you. I made this post to see will we get those sub moa airgunners here since defination of sub moa gun for me is something that dose it 99% of the time and what alot of people dont seem to understand is that subsonic speeds and low BC values make 100yd+ incredible long distance to be consistent. 
 
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If you think you have sub moa gun shoot 10targets with 10shots in same session and meet that requirment at 100yds everytime. If you truely have one it should be hard! Now lets see who has the most acurate gun but Im 1000% sure we wont be seeing 10 x 10shot sub moa groups anytime soon 😎
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I want to see that too! Here in Finland we don't count three or five shot string as a group. Anything under 10 shots is not a group, it's just pure luck! 😄
 
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You have not done a thorough search if you have not seen ten shot MOA 100 yard groups from our guns. Because they are out there. One I can easily remember is Ted shooting ten shotgun shells in a row. They are less than an inch in diameter so under MOA the ten shot group was.

I only shoot three shot groups when I am checking on how well my gun is shooting at 100 yards as the wind changes quickly and constantly, at the range, so it makes it pretty much impossible to shoot a ten shot group and have them not be affected by it. After all I am checking what my gun will do not how the wind affects my shots. So three or four three shot groups is more than equal to a ten shot group. Very few people would have access to an indoor 100 yard range. This is the reason most limit their groups to three or five shots. It has nothing to do with how well their gun shoots or what they are capable of.

When I shoot paint cans at two hundred yards I sometimes hold for 18 inches for wind and shoot several down, my best is four so far, in rapid succession. But alas the wind changes quickly and then I miss until I can find the correct dope for it again.

This does not mean that the guns will not shoot sub MOA 10 shot groups at 100 yards though. I would expect most guns that will shoot multiple three or five shot groups at 100 yards plainly would be able to do ten shoot groups at MOA at an indoor range.

Just remember just cuz you can't do it doesn't mean others are not capable. I am definitely not the only one that has done this kind of shooting.

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/installed-my-new-700mm-slug-liner-on-my-impact-and-started-tuning/?referrer=1

Scroll down for the targets
 
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Yes Iv seen 10shot groups under moa. Smallest iv seen being 18mm c - t - c shot at 100m by Drummen Sinner 223 with 41,4gr RWS 22lr like bullets and indoor. But one 10shot group dosent really make it sub moa gun but repeat that 10times on one sitting and it might be. You said it ur self.. Wind dose effect too much.. Yep I fully agree.. Thats why I say there is no such thing as sub moa airguns it simply aint possible in realworld environment and thats why I say ppl should not use such term so easily. If someone manages that 10 x 10 im ready to take it back and eat pile of.. Can be done indoors outdoors w/e but we wont see that happen. We could even allow 1 odd "flyer" to be removed per group yet it still would not happen. 
 
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In general its wrong terminology and bit stupid we compare subsonic platforms to supersonic firearm accuracy and should be scaled back. There is reason why 22lr is shot at 50m instead of 100+. Anyhow that dosent justify wrong terminology and is missleading for ppl who dont know better and are new to airguns and suppose "Wow I can shoot sub moa at 100yds and have same accuracy as my 308win" Im fairly sure we all can agree bc numbers and flight time makes comparing 308win vs 30cal airgun for example really unfair and therefore we should probably measure accuracy at half the distance at max to get to know what the gun is actually doing and environment not so much. But most importantly 3shot groups should be banned they just dosent tell anything about gun, ammo, environment or shooter just 3oddballs that have no real data purposes. 
 
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I know my Crown can shoot sub moa, no issue. Well, could. I gota go way out of my way to shoot 100+ yards. I dismantled the 700mm barrel I was doing it with. 36gr .218 boat tails do buck the wind pretty well. Shockingly well. But I always hunt in the woods. Always. There's not really any wind with all the trees breaking it up. So, no real advantage to shooting heavier slugs. No reason to be shooting out to 100 yards either 🤷‍♂️ unless you just really want to. Or actually have open land and do varmint hunting. Neither of which apply. If I had plenty of extra time and was feeling competitive I'd probably kick my ass in gear, lol. I don't see it happening, though. Not anytime soon. 
 
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Interesting post. I have kept MOA in my mind for the past 45 years as my standard for all types of firearms. So far with air guns I don't shoot 100 yards. However I realize I can't keep my guns shooting under a MOA even under a 100 yards. Most of the time I can shoot around a 1/2" at 50 but not always. Can your guns shoot under 1/4 always. I am amazed how little air can make our pellets move. Sometimes I shoot out of a 50' metal building different times I have had unexplained groups that shocked me how simple the cause was. I have shot in there in the summer when the swamp cooler was on and turning it off changed my point of aim at 60 yards. This is .177 stuff. 
 
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I would have to disagree with you on the MOA thing. Just because a gun will not shoot MOA outside in adverse atmospheric conditions does not negate the fact that it will in fact shoot MOA. MOA is MOA whether one shot or a hundred, whether in the weather or not, whether shot with a .308 powder burner or an airgun, it is still measured exactly the same.

Yes, I agree with you completely people need to realize that lighter weight subsonic rounds are affected by atmospheric conditions far more than supersonic projectiles though. But that is definitely an unfair comparison made only by those who are ignorant with regard to ballistics. 

Most of us here understand that an unpredictable wind is going to derail our trying to get an MOA 100 or 200 yard group. Still that does not mean that we or our equipment is not capable of doing so. 

Repeated 3 shot groups tally up to a 10 or 15 shot group and when you are dodging the wind it is often the only way to do it in a shortened time frame. A 3 shot group tells me that I probably have a good tune. Repeated 3 shot groups tell me that I do have a good tune.

My 6.5 Grendel will shoot a 5/8ths inch group at 100 yards. My .25 Impact will often do the same on a low wind day. A good comparison it probly is not. Still both are Sub MOA groups no matter how you look at it.

Here is the .25 Impact again shooting at 940fps with a fairly consistent spot in the wind on the left and in the middle of changing direction, on the right. I did not adjust for the wind in either of these groups. Is it an MOA gun? Looks like it shoots that way to me.




 
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I would have to disagree with you on the MOA thing. Just because a gun will not shoot MOA outside in adverse atmospheric conditions does not negate the fact that it will in fact shoot MOA. MOA is MOA whether one shot or a hundred, whether in the weather or not, whether shot with a .308 powder burner or an airgun, it is still measured exactly the same.

Yes, I agree with you completely people need to realize that lighter weight subsonic rounds are affected by atmospheric conditions far more than supersonic projectiles though. But that is definitely an unfair comparison made only by those who are ignorant with regard to ballistics. 

Most of us here understand that an unpredictable wind is going to derail our trying to get an MOA 100 or 200 yard group. Still that does not mean that we or our equipment is not capable of doing so. 

Repeated 3 shot groups tally up to a 10 or 15 shot group and when you are dodging the wind it is often the only way to do it in a shortened time frame. A 3 shot group tells me that I probably have a good tune. Repeated 3 shot groups tell me that I do have a good tune.

My 6.5 Grendel will shoot a 5/8ths inch group at 100 yards. My .25 Impact will often do the same on a low wind day. A good comparison it probly is not. Still both are Sub MOA groups no matter how you look at it.

Here is the .25 Impact again shooting at 940fps with a fairly calm spot in the wind on the left and and the normal 5-7mph wind, in the middle of changing direction, on the right. Is it an MOA gun? Looks like it shoots that way to me.



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What are you settings? I’m in the transition to slugs too. I already installed the pw plenum and slug power kit on my mk1 impact. I just tuned it to shoot mk2 at 935 FPS with the smooth twist barrel 600mm.. I’m just looking what other are using so I can take my decision what caliber to order and what kind of liner, I know it has to be 700 mm to put less stress in my gun..
 
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https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/The_Trouble_With_3_Shot_Groups/118-279218/ this actually fits perfectly on ur picture. Your gun might be much much much further from shooting Moa then you think.

Rick Jamison, the author of the Precision Reloading column in Shooting Times magazine approaches accuracy testing in a scientific manner. He uses a machine rest for testing and fires 10-shot groups. Here are his own words on the subject from one of his articles:



"There are stories of a single bullet that for no explained reason flies out of what might have been a tight cluster. This often occurs with a three-shot string and many times with a five-shot string. If you're lucky enough to fire a group without a flier, you can end up with a very tight group. However, usually what happens if another five or seven shots are fired to complete a 10-shot string, other bullets fill in the space between the main group and the flier to make a reasonably rounded group. Ten shots are a more reliable indicator when it comes to predicting what a load is likely to do in the future.



The problem with 10-shot groups is that when you report them, everyone thinks you aren't shooting very well or that the ammunition is not good because the group sizes are so much larger than three- or five-shot groups. Also, when we're firing three- or five-shot groups with a flier, it is only natural to assume that it was caused by a flinch or “pulling” the shot. Therefore, since the flier was our own fault, the tendency is to eliminate it from any reporting of group size."

Here is another quote about 3-shot groups from another Precision Reloadingarticle by Rick Jamison."Some shooters may have two or three three-shot groups to prove the load is really accurate. It really takes more shooting than that to make a judgment on a load’s accuracy potential. Three shots forming a tight cluster is nice to look at, but it is little more than an accident. Shooting three-shot groups to see how everything is working is essentially a waste of time and components."
 
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Eddy1840

MK1 Impact-x pre-AMP reg

I have the 700 slug A barrel

Ported and polished the barrel and probe

Michal's large plenum like the FX Power Plenum

Enlarged the VS to 6.1

Moved the valve spring to outside of the plenum like on the newer guns. I used the lighter valve spring from the pin probe power kit but not the probe. Ernest has a video on this.

Power wheel on 5 and valve knob on the fourth line.

130 bar on the reg

Shooting the NSA 36.2 .250 slugs at about 940 fps. But I have shot them from 740 to 960 fps with sub MOA groups at several velocities.
 
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Eddy1840

I have the 700 slug A barrel

Ported and polished the barrel and probe

Michal's large plenum like the FX Power Plenum

Enlarged the VS to 6.1

Moved the valve spring to outside of the plenum like on the newer guns. I used the lighter valve spring from the pin probe power kit but not the probe. Ernest has a video on this.

Power wheel on 5 and valve knob on the fourth line.

Shooting the NSA 36.2 .250 slugs at about 940 fps. But I have shot them from 740 to 960 fps with sub MOA groups at several velocities.
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Thank you I appreciate it.. so I’m in the right way mine is shooting mk2 at 935 FPS valve second line power wheel max I mesure it with caliper 18.5 mm open reg 135 bars..
 
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https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/The_Trouble_With_3_Shot_Groups/118-279218/ this actually fits perfectly on ur picture. Your gun might be much much much further from shooting Moa then you think.

Rick Jamison, the author of the Precision Reloading column in Shooting Times magazine approaches accuracy testing in a scientific manner. He uses a machine rest for testing and fires 10-shot groups. Here are his own words on the subject from one of his articles:



"There are stories of a single bullet that for no explained reason flies out of what might have been a tight cluster. This often occurs with a three-shot string and many times with a five-shot string. If you're lucky enough to fire a group without a flier, you can end up with a very tight group. However, usually what happens if another five or seven shots are fired to complete a 10-shot string, other bullets fill in the space between the main group and the flier to make a reasonably rounded group. Ten shots are a more reliable indicator when it comes to predicting what a load is likely to do in the future.



The problem with 10-shot groups is that when you report them, everyone thinks you aren't shooting very well or that the ammunition is not good because the group sizes are so much larger than three- or five-shot groups. Also, when we're firing three- or five-shot groups with a flier, it is only natural to assume that it was caused by a flinch or “pulling” the shot. Therefore, since the flier was our own fault, the tendency is to eliminate it from any reporting of group size."

Here is another quote about 3-shot groups from another Precision Reloadingarticle by Rick Jamison."Some shooters may have two or three three-shot groups to prove the load is really accurate. It really takes more shooting than that to make a judgment on a load’s accuracy potential. Three shots forming a tight cluster is nice to look at, but it is little more than an accident. Shooting three-shot groups to see how everything is working is essentially a waste of time and components."
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Sorry but I go by what has proven to werq for me in the past several decades I have been doing this. I don't like to waste money on ammo and I don't want the wind to mess up my testing so three shots werqs very well. No matter what anyone says. Many others do the same. Like I said a good three shot group tells me that I likely have a good tune and many three shot groups tell me that I do have a good tune. The five shot groups say the same. Good ten shot groups for my airgun or the .22 long rifle rounds don't happen very often where I shoot due to wind conditions. 

The info you are quoting from is powder burner stuff and does not correlate to airguns as there is no powder involved. They are completely different animals in that arena.

When an airgun is tuned properly there is a repeatable and extremely consistent amount of air released at a very precise pressure. This repeatable release of a measured amount of air from the gun rivals and usually beats the consistency of any firearm in projectile ES.

For me to even match the accuracy of my Impact at 100 yards I have to buy .22 ammo that costs $.20 a round and then that only matches it's accuracy it does not beat it. Or use my Grendel and $1.00 a round ammo once again to only match the accuracy. Dealing with the wind is something we all have to learn to do with our airguns or the .22LR. It's not so hard with the Grendel but it is a bit harder on the wallet.

I have been shooting my Impact for a year and a half now and it actually does shoot that well regardless of what you think/feel about it.

There are many more MOA folks out there so I think you have a mute point here.


 
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