An odd questions about how people shoot when getting MOA groups.

[ctshooter]

I was thinking about this today while dealing with more swirly winds in my backyard - why can't they even just at least blow in one direction?

When you guys are shooting for groups and trying to keep as small (even MOA) a group as possible, do you:

- Lock into the same POA and just fire multiple rounds at the same place.

- Try to read the wind and change POA as appropriate to keep the group as small as possible.

It would seem the first practice is testing how well the gun can shoot, whereas the second is testing the shooter themselves.

 

[Moog]

When I'm shooting off of a rest for groups I always hold at the same point of aim. If I'm testing for accuracy and I feel the wind is going to be a problem I will wait for another time to shoot.

 

[elh0102]

You have to have good conditions to test rifle and ammo. Otherwise, pee into the wind and get equal satisfaction. And yes, the best BR shooters are those that can deal with conditions, especially wind. So, your POA will vary considerably in trying to hold for a wind. Whether shooting for group or score, your challenge is to figure where the wind is going to put your shot. I used to do a lot of RF and CF bench rest, and it quickly became obvious, the consistent winners were the ones who could deal with the wind. I was not good at reading the wind, so my technique was different. I would watch the flags, and assuming no real calms were presenting, I would try to figure the most constant condition, and when it appeared, try to get the group on paper. My groups were usually great until the second shot!

 

[bubblerboy64]

Great till the second shot. NOW THAT WAS FUNNY. Lol funny.
Look at it this way. If the second shots off then there’s no pressure. If there is an option, which there never seems to be. I’d rather the second one blow the group then the last one. 
I can’t read the wind either and I question if I have many days I can shoot MOA even in perfect conditions. I’ve also got a mental thing holding off and releasing the shot. Just doesn’t seem right so I try to do the same as you. Find a condition that seems most stable and fire the rounds. I suspect that’s what most do? I admire those who have the guts to hold for the wind. Maybe with experience. Air rifle bench rest will humble you. At least it has me. I don’t compete. I fool around in the back yard and try to make some good groups happen but I can’t come close to some that are posted here .

 

[Centercut]

I think we’re talking apples and oranges here...

When someone says their GUN is a consistent one MOA gun at 100 yards, that means he shot numerous 5 shot groups (5 or 6), at 100 yards in as ideal conditions as possible and didn’t change his POA at all. This has almost nothing to do with shooter skill except what little it takes to be smooth and consistent on the trigger.

When someone wants to shoot small groups, or better yet small targets, he takes that MOA gun and adjusts his POA to get the shots as close a possible to his intended POI. This type of shooting pits the shooters skill with the gun to try and shoot the best group or score possible. It is a combination of the gun doing its part and the shooter doing his part, mostly with reading the wind and adjusting his POA.

 

[ctshooter]

No fruit here Centercut... just an amateur trying to learn how you guys do it best. 

I want to get into competition, but I feel I need more practice and time to get better before I do. Who knows - probably best to jump jump in feet first and learn by getting smashed in a competition. I'd like to do some BR, but after reading several posts I don't know if 25 or 50 would be good distances. I'm not going to ever show up with a $10k precision gun mount with a joystick and remote trigger. I'd like to think I'd have fun in 100, but I don't know if the Evol .22 Mini is up to the task at only ~32ish FPE. 

Probably best to go with what's local to me, but Western CT is not offering that much up. I think there's a FT group in Oxford CT, but after a few blown lower back discs from other "fun" activities I don't think I could handle the positions. 

 

[elh0102]

I think we’re talking apples and oranges here...

When someone says their GUN is a consistent one MOA gun at 100 yards, that means he shot numerous 5 shot groups (5 or 6), at 100 yards in as ideal conditions as possible and didn’t change his POA at all. This has almost nothing to do with shooter skill except what little it takes to be smooth and consistent on the trigger.

When someone wants to shoot small groups, or better yet small targets, he takes that MOA gun and adjusts his POA to get the shots as close a possible to his intended POI. This type of shooting pits the shooters skill with the gun to try and shoot the best group or score possible. It is a combination of the gun doing its part and the shooter doing his part, mostly with reading the wind and adjusting his POA.

Seems to me, we're saying exactly the same. Rifle/ammo has to be tested under the best conditions possible, indoors in a mechanical rest would be ideal. Hitting a target, or shooting small group in the wind depends on shooter skill, assuming generally comparable equipment. 

 

[Centercut]

Ed, Yes, totally... I don’t think I read yours slowly enough since this topic comes up every couple of month an members forget about the search function. My bad...

ctshooter, just jump in the deep end. I saw a man win a semi major 100 yard BR competition in 2019 shooting .22 JSB Exact 15.89 grain pellets. Granted he had mad skills wind reading and it was his home range, but he was competing against all kinds of high power .22, .25 and .30 guns. Like I like to say, the only way you’ll ever really know how good you are is if you step into the Arena...

Mike

 

[8thman]

Assuming that the gun is capable to me I am my biggest critic. Some days that are what I believe to be identical, I’m just not having a good shooting day. I shoot daily weather permitting but in my back yard I have the ability to shoot 50-125 yards, now with that being said I’m shooing down hill at 9-11 degrees. Also the ground from right to left drops at 15 degrees, I’m located about three quarters way to the top of the hill and I’m facing north north west . Now I know my yard and environment well but if I’m shooting at a different location its just going to time for me to figure it out. Like golfing at the same course all the time I know with conditions given were the ball will end up, I guess I’m just saying in my yard range I would be a worthy competitor anywhere else I may have trouble adapting.

 

[B]

No fruit here Centercut... just an amateur trying to learn how you guys do it best. 

I want to get into competition, but I feel I need more practice and time to get better before I do. Who knows - probably best to jump jump in feet first and learn by getting smashed in a competition. I'd like to do some BR, but after reading several posts I don't know if 25 or 50 would be good distances. I'm not going to ever show up with a $10k precision gun mount with a joystick and remote trigger. I'd like to think I'd have fun in 100, but I don't know if the Evol .22 Mini is up to the task at only ~32ish FPE. 

Probably best to go with what's local to me, but Western CT is not offering that much up. I think there's a FT group in Oxford CT, but after a few blown lower back discs from other "fun" activities I don't think I could handle the positions.

ctshooter

Don't get to hangup on "need to practice before I go to competition" Rockville Fish & Game is holding FT match in couple of weeks

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/2020-september-27-sunday-rockville-fish-game-rockville-ct/

And you can shoot unlimited class what means anyway you want , just come and shoot first before you decide what you need to practice on.

B

 

[ctshooter]

No fruit here Centercut... just an amateur trying to learn how you guys do it best. 

I want to get into competition, but I feel I need more practice and time to get better before I do. Who knows - probably best to jump jump in feet first and learn by getting smashed in a competition. I'd like to do some BR, but after reading several posts I don't know if 25 or 50 would be good distances. I'm not going to ever show up with a $10k precision gun mount with a joystick and remote trigger. I'd like to think I'd have fun in 100, but I don't know if the Evol .22 Mini is up to the task at only ~32ish FPE. 

Probably best to go with what's local to me, but Western CT is not offering that much up. I think there's a FT group in Oxford CT, but after a few blown lower back discs from other "fun" activities I don't think I could handle the positions.

ctshooter

Don't get to hangup on "need to practice before I go to competition" Rockville Fish & Game is holding FT match in couple of weeks

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/2020-september-27-sunday-rockville-fish-game-rockville-ct/

And you can shoot unlimited class what means anyway you want , just come and shoot first before you decide what you need to practice on.

B

Thank for the invite - I am definitely going to see if I can make it. 

 

[Chuck26287]

I was thinking about this today while dealing with more swirly winds in my backyard - why can't they even just at least blow in one direction?

When you guys are shooting for groups and trying to keep as small (even MOA) a group as possible, do you:

- Lock into the same POA and just fire multiple rounds at the same place.

- Try to read the wind and change POA as appropriate to keep the group as small as possible.

It would seem the first practice is testing how well the gun can shoot, whereas the second is testing the shooter themselves.

You basically understand it. It depends on what you are doing... testing/tuning the gun & ammo combo (hold same POA to specifically allow POI variability to see what it is with a given set of tuning characteristics) or a shooter is competing/practicing to shoot for accuracy/scores (adjust POA for environmental [wind] conditions to specifically eliminate/reduce POI variability or accurately place the POI where it is desired in the given conditions).

For testing/tuning, you want to eliminate as many variables to the testing environment and equipment as is possible. The purpose here is to identify what the gun/ammo/tune produces as far as POI variability is concerned. You are truly shooting to identify group size for a given tune, regardless of where it lands in relationship to POA. When shooting for scores and/or accurate shot placement, you are adjusting POA for the variables that are now part of the shooting system (wind, support platform, shooter's physiology, etc.). The winners are the shooters who can read, and accurately compensate for constantly changing variables to the shooting conditions, and place the impact where it needs to be.

Like Centercut said... apples and oranges.

 

[tommyb]

Sean, good thread question and very good answers given to clarify the differences between the two scenarios. This is a helpful reminder as sometimes I tend to get caught up and forget when to go back to 50 or less yards and shoot groups when accuracy starts to diminish at 100 yards. 

 

[O2bmark]

locked down rifle in indoor range best test of gun to be used in perfect conditions without compensations. Otherwise, there are no perfect conditions. My best groups in the real world often the result of me seeing movement of impacts and adjusting aim accordingly. With powder burners sometimes we recognize movement with barrel heating up and compensate which demonstrates the capability of that gun in a particular shooters hands. Same gun locked down to same POA may give much larger group. So, what exactly do you want to know or care about? Your ability to know your gun probably relates (mindset) to your ability to read conditions and you will probably get consistently good results. If you are only able to perfectly align cross-hairs and release trigger then you will never be a great real world shooter but you could get a job in a ballistics lab. I remember from my Hi-Power shooting days when M-14s were dominate that they were very hold sensitive as opposed to the M-24. Airguns are in my experience extremely hold sensitive. Long barrel time can capture quite a bit of movement and vibration from the firing cycle. Some days I cannot group and I make a minor change in hold (grip, shoulder pressure, placement of off hand) and things tighten up. Airguns are a bit mysterious.

 

[Flintsack]

I’ve posted what I call magic groups for years.

I find this question interesting. I have never ever shot at the same spot every time as a test to see how the rifle would shoot. There are too many other variables. You are never testing just the rifle and pellet.

The only reason I would hold on the same spot for every shot, is if I believe that would be the optimum spot to hold for each shot to put it in the center of the group. Once in a while that happens by accident. Rarely am I holding on point of impact at that point. Rarely, is my rifle hitting at point of impact and point of aim at 100 yards. Usually I am holding off in some direction right or left, and mentally thinking maybe I’m holding high or low just a little tiny bit based upon the last shot.

The key to consistent small groups at long range is judging the wind correctly. Everyone gets beat by the wind sometimes.

some rifles shoot really well when it’s calm. But they don’t shoot well when it’s windy, they go all over the place. Some pellets shoot better when it’s calm but don’t fight the wind well. That’s why I test in the wind. I start in the calm then I move on to real life.

The only way holding on the same spot every shot to test the accuracy of the rifle scope pellet shooter combination makes sense as if you were in a tube with no wind. But that would not tell you if it did well in the wind. And I think hundred yard tubes are pretty scarce.

below this is a group I shot today. It was 115 yards. My point of aim was approximately 3 inches high and an inch to the right of the group. I had just finished removing the barrel from my Red  Walnut, and scrubbing it. I put it back on and this is the first group I shot. The first four were decent for a barrel that needs to be re-broken in. The number five went between three and four which I thought was cool. Then the next one went right in the same hole and the next one and the next one and they just kept going in the same hole all the way to ten. Six shots in a row in a little bit over 1/10 of an inch. What is my take away?

Thanks 

mike

 

[Kenn1320]

I'm new to airguns, but as a competitive archer I can say with confidence you can't buy experience. Don't wait till you think you're good enough to go to a competition. If you are interested, go now. Talk to others and get seat time. Its a whole new level of stress, gotta do it a lot to learn to handle it.