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Tuning Amaizing latest results of upgraded RAW HM1000X .25

mubhaur

Member
Nov 8, 2015
1,438
29
Karachi, Pakistan
    Today I finally tested my RAW HM1000X .25 with 34gr JSB at around 905 fps.

    This is the first time I tested the complete string after I installed FX Royal style valve and less than half the hammer weight.

    The results are surprising for me. I was never expecting it.

    When I had installed plenum, peek valve and ssg, I had started getting 70 good shots with 34 grain pellets at 900fps.

    In stock condition out of the box the gun used to give around 50 shots at same power level 

    But now after opening the stem of valve in atmosphere like fx Royal series that dictated me to reduce the hammer weight I have successfully obtained 115 usable shots.

    Details are as below:

    Starting pressure 250 bars
    Ending pressure 120 bars
    Air utilised 130 bars
    Pellet weight 33.95 grain
    Caliber .25
    Average Speed 905 fps
    Spread 20 fps
    Total shots 115
    Reg pressure 145 bars
    Average power per shot 61.72 ftlb
    Cylinder capacity 480cc 

    Efficiency 8.97

    To me this is amazing

    https://youtu.be/KfWUdhTjxLk
     
    Nice work 115 shots wow 
    Screenshot_20220116-073903.1642340476.png

     

    mubhaur

    Member
    Nov 8, 2015
    1,438
    29
    Karachi, Pakistan
      Nice work 115 shots wow 
      Screenshot_20220116-073903.1642340476.png

      I understand that you would have noticed a very important point that makes me understand that you have read the post with interest.

      It's a phenomenon in regulated PCPs that at a certain reg pressure if one adjusts the hammer spring to achieve the max possible fps at that certain reg pressure and then reduces the hammer strike so that the fps should drop by around 3 % to 5%, the transition from regulated phase to unregulated phase becomes reasonably gradual without spike and / or without loosing power suddenly. 

      Normally there is just a little spike that is negligible. 

      In the above case scenario, in fact I didn't do conscious attempt to achieve the above mentioned balance but some times some adjustments are made just by chance i.e. unintentionally. 

      So in this case when the gun went off reg, there was a spike of only around d 15 fps for two shots and then fps started reducing gradually. 

      This phenomenon helped a lot achieving so much shots otherwise I could have 100 regulated shots.

      I hope I have explained it reasonably. 

      Infact in the age of non regulated guns, such techniques were extensively used to obtain tight spread and more shots.

      Even the modern tuners apply these techniques in regulated guns and as the gun comes off reg the unregulated discipline takes over the working of regulator very gradually. 

      I hope it helps.

      Bhaur
       
      Yeah you got to find just the right balance so when it transitions it stays within your allowable fps spread another reason I'm going to try about 125 reg pressure I'm hoping to run right around the 900 area at 130 bar I'm still in power range of 910 to 924 fps and when it came off the reg it was at 906 then 902 after that 
       
      Jan 21, 2018
      2,462
      139
      MS, United States
        Bhaur, very impressive results.

        Tuning to a little below the knee does indeed improve efficiency, usually at a slight tradeoff to extreme spread and a little bump just as the pressure falls below the setpoint. However you have managed a very good result that seems to minimize these potential negatives to a nearly negligible degree. That is a testament to your careful work with the valve, hammer, and other parts of the gun. Nicely done!
         

        mubhaur

        Member
        Nov 8, 2015
        1,438
        29
        Karachi, Pakistan
          Putting the internals on a diet really payed off :) Hope RAW is reading along in this topic since they can learn a thing or two from it

          Basically when I had received the two identical RAW HM1000X both in .25 a few years ago just before takeover by Airforce, I wanted to just convert one gun into .22 caliber and when I contacted RAW for guidance regarding the size of transfer port for converting to .22 they replied that its their internal business related information that they cannot share.

          I was surprised that when FX was sharing detail drawings and specs of O rings etc. how backward RAW was in their behaviour towards a customer.

          During the production Martin had been great with me and is a nice guy and may be these restrictions had been the part of agreement with Airforce. 

          I can't say.

          I can say only one thing and that is the God has helped me all the way otherwise I could not find such great machinists and seasoned tuners like Bucketboy and Scott who helped me whenever I needed. And yes Mark B was also source of help.

          But being here in a 3rd world country it was a bit difficult project.

          Regards,

          Bhaur
           

          mubhaur

          Member
          Nov 8, 2015
          1,438
          29
          Karachi, Pakistan
            I’m kinda confused from your stated results. So even up to 25 bar below reg pressure you’re getting within 20fps spread? Chrony screenshot would be helpful to clear things up here I think

            If the regulated gun is smoothly tuned, it still gives good consistency even after coming down from reg set point.

            There appears no spike or sudden drop in power in properly tuned regulated gun.

            When there were only unregulated guns, the consistency of fps was obtained using similar techniques. 

            Normally by bringing down the fps around 5% from the peek fps just by unscrewing the hammer spring tension, such tuning is obtainable. 

            Bhaur
             
            Sorry, what do you mean by ‘smoothly tuned’?

            I fail to understand how there can not be a sudden drop or spike after falling below reg pressure 

            Also, I thought with unregulated guns the technique of tuning was much the same and just full to a less pressure … ie balance of the springs and all the porting holes. 
            It’s been common knowledge for quite some time to back off hammer tension a little … ie your stated ‘5%’
             

            qball

            Member
            Apr 13, 2020
            5,555
            160
            CA, United States
              Apparently, a lot of development work is needed on valves.




              I was going to say the same thing. If the original design was good there shouldn’t be hardly any better performance by switching to another design or upgrade. The fact that upgrading to a different style valve and hammer dramatically improved the performance means the original design is severely lacking. 


              I never understood why some people being so in love with their RAW when from reading on the forums I never saw amazing results. Worst of all they have not updated ANYTHING on their design for nearly a decade. If a design is good then updates may not be needed but this clearly demonstrated a full redesign should be on order. They never even came out with the shorter version of the same thing teased 2 years ago so a redesign is obviously asking too much. 



              The finding/results are fantastic and extremely disappointing, another American company resting on their laurels! As an American I would like to support American businesses but I refuse to support laziness and full on complacency! 
               

              mubhaur

              Member
              Nov 8, 2015
              1,438
              29
              Karachi, Pakistan
                Apparently, a lot of development work is needed on valves.




                I was going to say the same thing. If the original design was good there shouldn’t be hardly any better performance by switching to another design or upgrade. The fact that upgrading to a different style valve and hammer dramatically improved the performance means the original design is severely lacking. 


                I never understood why some people being so in love with their RAW when from reading on the forums I never saw amazing results. Worst of all they have not updated ANYTHING on their design for nearly a decade. If a design is good then updates may not be needed but this clearly demonstrated a full redesign should be on order. They never even came out with the shorter version of the same thing teased 2 years ago so a redesign is obviously asking too much. 



                The finding/results are fantastic and extremely disappointing, another American company resting on their laurels! As an American I would like to support American businesses but I refuse to support laziness and full on complacency!

                Thank you for the comments. 

                To me the RAW is based on Ben Taylor's great design of Theoben Rapid.

                But with the passage of time, every living (great) thing should evolve towards betterment. 

                I see some cosmetic improvements in RAW and very few technical improvements. 

                Technically the most innovative PCP company is FX as per my knowledge. 

                FX continuously improves their products.

                It's a simple thing to understand that sky is the limit for innovation and improvements. 

                I agree with you that RAW is Technically very much old without meeting the pace of time and new technology. 

                It's great that some tuners of UK and USA are doing great work on RAW guns to improve the product. 

                My results also show that if these guns be Technically improved these have great potential to stand with the most efficient guns of today's advanced technology.

                In fact I borrowed the idea of new style valve from FX Royal which is a good efficient platform. 

                I also love RAW and the reason is its built quality and very rare chances of failure. 

                Easy to work on and built like a tank.

                Amazing trigger.

                The things that it was lacking I have successfully overcome thanks God. 

                Umair Bhaur 
                 
                I think raw hasn't changed because it's tried and true it may not be the most efficient valve but you can produce a very powerful Air rifle using the original valve granted your not going to get the shot count but most people in the usa are chasing power and a lot don't care about a ton of shots as long as the shot string is a couple mags that's good enough for some people I understand what you are saying and yes mubhaur has accomplished power and shot count so yes they could redesign but I don't think it will happen because it is a simple design that is being used don't get me wrong I love what mubhaur has accomplished just a opinion on why they haven't changed 
                 
                Apparently, a lot of development work is needed on valves.




                I was going to say the same thing. If the original design was good there shouldn’t be hardly any better performance by switching to another design or upgrade. The fact that upgrading to a different style valve and hammer dramatically improved the performance means the original design is severely lacking. 


                I never understood why some people being so in love with their RAW when from reading on the forums I never saw amazing results. Worst of all they have not updated ANYTHING on their design for nearly a decade. If a design is good then updates may not be needed but this clearly demonstrated a full redesign should be on order. They never even came out with the shorter version of the same thing teased 2 years ago so a redesign is obviously asking too much. 



                The finding/results are fantastic and extremely disappointing, another American company resting on their laurels! As an American I would like to support American businesses but I refuse to support laziness and full on complacency!

                RAW/Theoben are old design that just work. And they will work 20 years from today. Don’t knock that design. There plenty of complicated fragile designed pcp’s on the market.

                And even with them being old tech…they still manage to offer one of the finest triggers on the market. 
                And….manage to sell one of the best shooting pcp’s out of the box.