Airgun accuracy/precision potential questions

[j.ills]

Hello Fellow Airgunners,

In the centerfire world, I don't think it's uncommon for F-class bullet holes to be touching and sometimes stacking at 200-300 yards. In the airgun world, and .22 rimfire world for that matter, it seems like most people are impressed with a 1", 10 shot group at 100 yards. I realize the environment takes its toll on a low BC pellet or slug much more quickly than a 180 grain Berger. But isn't there more on the table when airguns tend to use thin shrouded barrels, albeit with some internal support, and rimfire and centerfire use thick (sometimes 1.25") heavy bull barrels? Even for .308 cal and larger slug guns, I haven't seen any groups I'd be impressed to see from a good centerfire .308, i.e. 1/2 or 1/3 MOA or better. I realize a supersonic projectile is going to have an advantage when it comes to being impacted by its environment, but I still believe that in ideal conditions, i.e. no wind, there are no laws of physics dictating that an airgun shooting heavy slugs shouldn't be able to compete with a centerfire at ranges like 100 yards, where the terminal trajectory is still relatively perpendicular to the target. To what do you attribute the differences in accuracy?

Thanks for any insights or experiences.

Josh

 

[Raden1942]

Honestly with powder burners my experience is that heat plays a big part in accuracy. That's why larger diameter barrels are needed as well as free floating barrels and solid receiver bedding. Some of that translates into airguns but you simply cannot use huge barrels to increase accuracy in airguns. There's no point. An airgun does not heat up a barrel to 200 degrees..... Ever. So you don't need a thick barrel. You do need solid contacts to the receiver and free float helps as well but don't get caught up on comparing barrel diameter to powder burners. There is a reason they are thicker than airguns. 

 

[SDellinger]

Years of development and testing of rifles and components has enabled the centerfire to shoot the groups they do today. I think airguns and their components are relatively new and have not developed fully. Just look what has happened with airgun shooting in the last five years. The airgun world has a long way to go but seeing the interest and progress in the last five years you can be sure groups are going to tighten up quite a bit pretty soon. Check out the cast bullet forum and see how they do things. That's more like airguns shooting slugs.

 

[boscoebrea]

Speed,2000fps vs.950fps, what gets there faster, truer, and with less drop. Air rifles will be able to do as good as any other rifle at closer ranges, say 100yds, some people will be able to do as good at 200 yds.....in due time...

The fun of it all is to be able to do the best you can with what you got....slugs are becoming more popular and in time the air gun manufacturers will join the bandwagon and make slug rifles that can compete with any rifle....up to a point.....

Air gunners like to beat powder burners,and in time they will dominate under 100yds championships...then 200 yds.

As has been spoken long-range air gunning is in its infancy.

 

[bamavet55]

"...To what do you attribute the differences in accuracy?..."

I attribute that difference to your premise. A premise I see as flawed, as you provide no evidence that "...in ideal conditions, ... i.e. no wind an airgun shooting heavy slugs shouldn't be able to compete with a centerfire at ranges like 100 yards." 

I understand and accept that firearms routinely outperform airguns in typical environmental conditions at long distances. When these comparisons are observed and the firearms prove to be superior in accuracy, I attribute this to windy conditions, where the much superior ballistic coefficient is the determining factor.

When you provide an example of some test where a firearm bested an airgun at 200 yards in ideal conditions, which I imagine would be inside an enclosure, the results can then be examined and your question answered.

 

[biohazardman]

Airguns are already winning, now and then, in the rimfire competitions they are allowed to shoot in which are few. 

I expect that will continue to be the case and even increase in frequency, in the future, as they are accepted into the competitions.

 

[dc8cappie]

I have t seen an airgun that can shoot a Spitzer boat tail projectile, let alone at a velocity of 2500 to 3500 fps. When we can shoot one of these at those speeds then we’ll probably have those kinds of accuracies, I think your looking at apples and we only have oranges.

 

[dizzums]

well its all in your expectations .. pellets 'are' slower and theres more impact by the environment period and that is not an occasional factor its a ubiquitous one with rare perfect air .. i ride motorcycle and have for years and have come to know 'smooth' even air of a consistent density only happens about 3am in clear weather, you can feel it ... during the day your buffeted by uneven air of differing temps that not only goes side to side but up and down constantly ... not conducive for a pellet gun projectile to go straight over long distance .. shorten the distance itl get better .. pellet guns are not long range guns, if your getting 1" at 100 id celebrate ...

 

[boscoebrea]

I had to put a fairing on my bike,air blast was too much for me.I see how you came up with the analogy of riding a motorcycle and a pellet or slug,cutting through the air.

 

[steve123]

Centerfire = typically much higher BC's, much higher speeds, superior bullet construction - copper jacketed, highly developed and very robust action platforms, thick barrels, etc.

It'd be interesting to me to see how a 6mmPPC BR rifle would do at 50Y compared to the best in rimfires and airguns while both shot in a test tunnel but my prediction is the outcome would still put the centerfire ahead for the reasons above.

Since I've owned a couple 6mmPPC BR rifles I feel silly shooting my airguns for groups, especially with pellets, at 100Y.

I remember doing load development at 100Y with one 6mmPPC and my worst group of many was 1/2". BTW I'd likely finish dead last in a centerfire BR match.

I think I read that the best centerfire BR rifles are agging in the .1's at 100Y sometimes.

AFAIK the BR record 600Y 5 shot group was .28"! WOW. 1000Y isn't much north of an inch.

 

[Centercut]

Airguns are already winning, now and then, in the rimfire competitions they are allowed to shoot in which are few. 

I expect that will continue to be the case and even increase in frequency, in the future, as they are accepted into the competitions.

Can you provide some links to those wins? I was unaware of that. I have seen them do well against rimfires, like @zx10wall did a few weekends ago with his .22 Vulcan3 where he finished 6th out of 40 (two airguns). But that's the only one I've heard of at any comp with more than a handful of shooters...

 

[Gerry52]

Mike, there was a post on here a few weeks back about an airgun beating out & winning a .22 competition. Very interesting.

 

[qball]

180 grain 7mm VLD bullet BC: 0.673

34.9 grain NSA BC: 0.11



if you do the quick math the BC is 6 times of that of an airgun bullet. Even take speed out of question a fair comparison would be a group at 100 yards for airgun with a group at 600 yard for PB. Or 100 yard PB group with airgun at 16 yards due to environmental affect on the projectile which directly coronates to the projectile BC.

Here is 5 shot 20 yard group from yesterday from airgun with pellet that only has BC of 0.027 or 1/20th of the BC from the Berger.

Even with a good reload most PB strive to have ES of sub 25fps while many high quality airguns have ES of under 10 and SD of 2 so from a pure precision perspective airgun is hands down more precise. 

 

[qball]

Mike, there was a post on here a few weeks back about an airgun beating out & winning a .22 competition. Very interesting.

this one?

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/a-historical-first-in-the-airgun-world/

 

[Flintsack]

Qball:

180 grain 7mm VLD bullet BC: 0.673

34.9 grain NSA BC: 0.11

Then add in the extreme increase in velocity = 2.5x



Trying to compare airguns to powder burners at this stage is in the game, is like trying to compare 22 rimfire to a 6.5 x 284 at 1000 yards.

in a really good conditions, I think an air gun can out shoot a 22 rim fire at 100 yards.

Much more relevant to the thickness or thinness the barrel, is the twist of the barrel, and the weight of the projectile it’s designed to shoot at various velocities.

A thin barrel can be just as accurate as a big fat barrel. That’s an entirely different discussion. Only one manufacture is currently using very thin barrel sleeves in the air gun world.

mike

 

[Raden1942]

We can get into all kinds of accuracy discussions. Barrel harmonics, twist rate, bullet construction etc.... The fact is that if you do your research and buy a capable airgun and pair it with bullet it likes then you will get the same accuracy or better than powder burners but at shorter range. The fact is that air will never achieve the same velocities as explosive gas. What it can do is get the spread so close as to be only 1 or 2 fps off from one shot to the next and offer almost completely recoil free shooting. This makes pcp airguns a much more accurate gun than powder burners just by taking out the human element. I wouldn't get to caught up on copper jacketing either. Airguns don't shoot at velocity that requires copper jackets and it doesn't make ammo more accurate than just lead. As for boat tails many airguns are starting to use them. Airguns will continue to stretch out range and accuracy as development continues but it will never shoot as far. However they are already just as accurate as powder burners. I have an sks that gets 4 moa and I have a springer that gets 8 moa but I also have an airgun that gets .75moa. There's no comparison between the two you can have a bad shooter in powder and a good shooter in air or vice versa. 

 

[M63Ural]

I remember when air rifle competition seemed centered around the 10 meter range. It seems that we are somewhat new to 100 yard competition. I could be wrong, if I am feel free to correct me.

At 50 yards I put my best air gun, currently my .25 Cricket Gen 1 against my best .22 lr powderburners. I have a match barreled 1022, in a target stock, with a custom trigger and a CZ 452 American mostly stock but with a nice scope and great trigger. My buddy finally texted me smaller groups from his CZ 457 in an aftermarket target stock, and a Night Force scope. We have been texting groups back and forth. Since COVID started. He is challenging me at 100 and 200 now. My Cricket and King Heavies might not be up to that in the great outdoors. We will see if I can get slugs to behave in one of mine.

I think some fine tuning with projectiles, and rifling/twist rate will see this gap tighten up. The airguns will stay subsonic and more succepable to the affects of wind. I have seen groups for long range match rifles get smaller as the range increases. Long supersonic bullets, totally different than a pellet. Of course it is a better comparison with the .22lr. Mine like anything subsonic with an E stamped on the back of the case.

I have to admit the tinkering I need to do changing regulator pressure, hammer spring preload, projectile choice seem daunting compared to sitting at the bench with a selection of good match lr and shooting till I get that "Ah Ha!" Group kind of daunting. 

So to the OP, be part of the revolution. Let's push the envelope.

Jim

 

[Scotchmo]

...there are no laws of physics dictating that an airgun shooting heavy slugs shouldn't be able to compete with a centerfire at ranges like 100 yards, where the terminal trajectory is still relatively perpendicular to the target. To what do you attribute the differences in accuracy?
Thanks for any insights or experiences.

Josh

Time of flight is a significant determination. Rather than compare an airgun at equal distances to a centerfire, compare them at distances that give equal time of flight. A 20fpe FT airgun at 30yds vs a 180gr Berger at 100 yds. Or a big bore (>150fpe) airgun at 300m might be compared to that 180gr Berger at 1000yds. In that respect, the airguns don't look so bad when comparing via MOA.

 

[RM.510bigbore]

First off I believe airguns problems are similar to powder burners problems. If either has a rough barrel its going to suffer from accuracy problems. Most bench rest rigs only run custom lapped barrel s from the manufacturer. My 50 Texan will shoot 650 grain boat tail bullet. It suffers the most in accuracy from a rough bore just like most cheap powder burners that won't shoot. So from my limited knowledge in the air gun world most manufacturers are using sub par barrels . I have not owned a high end air gun say FX Redwolf ,but I'm sure there barrels are pretty nice with consistent smooth shiny bores. So to compare both need to have high quality barrels. As far as light barrels , I sleeved my Texan barrel with carbon fiber full one inch diameter full bushing in action no movement. Stiffness fine . Shooting big bores is much harder than there powder burner cousin's.. 

To answer your question comparing things equally say 22lr and 22 pcp equivalent power . In the accuracy Department would vary on the one with the best barrel. I used to build long range custom powder burners. Its was all about good custom barrels for one hole groups.. I had lots of barrels but I love benchmark but there are lots of others that are great to Krieger, hart, broughton. So when I see air guns running custom barrels there accuracy will continue to improve. My 2 cents

 

[RM.510bigbore]

To.answers you bad trajectory at100 yards. My .510 Texan with its rough bore pain in the butt 1-26 will shoot 650 grain spire point boat tails at 750 fps into perfectly round holes at 125 yards. Here is a example of that

I'm not bragging on my lother Walter Texan barrel it will produce 3 to 5 accurate shots from a spotless perfect ly cleaned bore