Airforce Valves, light and heavy hammers

[MrP]

i am curious specifically about performance of a 95g hammer with slap mod from TalonTunes in a TalonP pistol compared to the stock hammer. I have encountered different opinions: 1) the hammer improves the TalonP performance 2) the hammer is too heavy and just wastes air in the TalonP

I installed the heavy hammer but lack a chronograph to really test it. I am finding the gun at a power wheel setting of 1-4 performs like it did with the old hammer at 6-12. I feel like it did not change the performance when topped off much but I find myself shooting at higher pressures as it lowers the power a little bit which is not bad for garage shooting (what I am limited to for now). I guess I am getting more shots because of this. Velocities seem low at close to 3000 psi and then really starts to increase as you approach 2800 and climbs as pressure approaches 2200 psi or so. This is based on loudness and ability to penetrate different metal thicknesses.

Someone suggested the hammer is too heavy for the talon and is really appropriate for something if like the condor. Why is this? Just barrel length? Or is the valve in the condor tank responding differently to the 95g hammer than the TalonP valve? Is the condor valve heavier or harder to knock back? 

Speaking of which, I have questions after trying to understand the Airforce sales stuff when it comes to the tanks and valves... direct-flo, high-flo, etc. so I wonder - can anyone lay out the differences? 

 

[kkarmical]

It's hard to really tell performance without shooting it across the chrony.

I use the heavy hammer in my TalonP and find it more consistent than stock.

I mean if you're tuning for 35-40 fpe and trying to get as many shots as you can, yeah its overkill, but I find you can fine tune with the power wheel better.

I shoot my TalonP for maximum power to move slugs as fast as possible and with energy upt to 74fpe depending on the weight.

 

[ackuric]

+1 to the chrony, you're kinda going into this blind...a heavier hammer will only waste more air if its opening the valve a 2nd or 3rd time where the light hammer is not.



This is due to the larger hammer having more momentum, which is conserved better than KE...if you're exhibiting hammer bounce, a heavy hammer is not your friend. The work around to that really is operating the hammer and spring in free flight meaning there is a minor gap (.03"-.05") between the valve stem and hammer face while uncocked.

 

[MrP]

Thanks kkarmical that’s nice to hear and my thought as well. So can you recommend slugs/bullets with high b.c. that work ok in the stock barrel? I am finding H and N grizzlies to be as accurate as jsb exact and exact heavy mkII in my garage but what can I tell I am shooting only 10m for now. 


What are the telltale signs of hammer bounce?

 

[ackuric]

Efficiency is the telltale sign, which you need a chorny to truly diagnose. A very good ear could hear the difference, but thats not common. The other thing a heavy hammer or too much hammer strike can do is over dwell the valve, which is keeping the vale open past the point that the pellet gains any more benefit, but if you're 'backing off' from the plateau via spring preload then that wouldn't be a concern.

 

[kkarmical]

All NSA slugs off his high speed machine have shot good enough that haven't even thought of using any other.

I started with stock 12" barrel with 33.5HP, & 34 domed. I just wanted to see if they shot better than jsb 33.95's and I really wanted a hollowpoint for less pass through.

Well they both shot good enough for me to up the power and see what happens.

So 16" barrel, TT tophat & heavy hammer then I ordered all the rest of his offerings a few different ones every order plus back ups. You can't beat NSA flat rate shipping, so now I have 26.8 through 55.5 HP and 34 & 36gr domed and they all shoot well.

BC to me is less important than fps and with my gun 900 - 930fps is the sweet spot for them all.

In a stock gun I would try 26.8gr & 29gr or 33.5gr NSA HP.

 

[MrP]

Thanks for the feedback on the slugs, kkarmical and on the hammer bounce, ackuric. 



kkarmical- How about with the 95g hammer from TalonTunes? Still those same slug masses?

 

[Mike_Lenardon]

I suggest

#1 you read all 4 parts to Tom Gaylords article. https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2019/04/the-airforce-ring-loc-kit-part-1/

#2 get a chrony.

#3 dont believe everything you read on the internet.

#4 if it will fit your bottle/valve consider getting a ring loc kit.

My TalonP carbine is now a .20 cal. 50 shots from 3000 to 1500 psi, all above 830 fps with 15.89 JSBs using the .123 transfer port and a pw setting of 6 Standard 213cc tank , non regulated. Should I need or want more power I'll shoot the Sam Yang 23.7g round nose pellets from Krale or go back to .25 In my opinion, unless you are building a monster Condor ( and I did years ago ) I would leave the stock hammer in there. The hammer slap mod, well if it makes your gun quieter then I want one also. Have fun and stay healthy.

 

[kkarmical]

Thanks for the feedback on the slugs, kkarmical and on the hammer bounce, ackuric. 



kkarmical- How about with the 95g hammer from TalonTunes? Still those same slug masses?

I did the barrel / hammer / TT adjustable tophat all at the same time, and haven't changed to the stock hammer since, so not sure what exactly hammer alone does.

Here's a picture of how I have it set up, I use a 10" Neil Clague moderator to keep it backyard friendly, stock bottle good for 74fpe depending on slug weight.

500cc bottle has a Doug Noble .25/.257 valve in it, which ultimately will end up in a .257 AirForce build, but zI use it to push the 55.5gr's to 104fpe+ on only 3000psi.

 

[MrP]

Great advice. Will read that article right away. 


I went for the 95g slap mod hammer. Couldn’t resist. Also the aluminum breech and the ring loc valve kit. Right now it is 95 g hammer and wide open valve time. Later maybe I will get tired of the abusive power of this configuration and step down to a smaller valve opening and lighter hammer. 


this thing is so much more powerful than anything I could possibly have a use for it is comical.

I’ve been shooting spoons hanging like a pendulum from a metal bar. They do a few laps around the bar when hit before they settle back down again. It is amusing to hit them with heavy pellets at high power because they just whip around the bar like a propellor.


Anyway this is the best I can do for now. I wonder about pellet traps with knock-down targets... are there any that can stand up to 50fpe or is that just out of the question?

 

[MrP]

So the question is, is it just a waste to put a heavy slap-mod hammer on a stock 12” barrel talon (well, with an aluminum breech slide), and use the ring loc kit to restrain the power for indoors shooting, then use a wider valve when more power is wanted?

Right now it feels to me like the gun at 2900 psi has the power range and it did when it was down at 2500 or so. Based on noise and penetration I feel like power climbs steadily as pressure drops close to 2000 or 1900 psi. Feels like power is ramping up, not a curve that climbs and drops. I probably just need to shoot 19 more shots but I just feel compelled to refill when the airforce tank needle drops below 1750 psi (which is actually about 2000 psi as the airforce gauge reads at least 250 psi higher than the pump gauge. 

i really look forward to getting a chronograph and seeing what is going on at higher power wheel settings with the heavy hammer. 


too bad you can’t rent a chronograph. There’s a “tool library” in portland where you can borrow all kinds of power and other tools just like at a library... if only they had a chronograph! I am over budget because I just got the Talon P (one never just gets a new air rifle of course) and all the pellets (first .25) and my experiments with finding iron sights and the hammer and breech replacements of course means I need to chill for a while and let my wife and daughter enjoy some of the extra cash we have on hand right now.


the good news: being forced to work from home, I have saved enough cash to at least pay for the TalonP ( not gassing up the car, not wasting $ on Starbucks coffee or stupid stuff like that, no lazy meals out for breakfast sandwiches and lunch burritos... heck I’m saving tons of money by Being forced to conserve freaking toilet paper because the lunatics who live around me must have dysentery... their appetite for toilet paper is something else). I am living frugally like my grandparents used to, and it feels good. Actually never mind that thought - I just bought myself a luxury air rifle and all that goes with it because I was bored and had some cash on hand. Not like my grandparents at all...