Air safety standardizations?

Jump to latest Follow Reply
A

Airtillery

Member
Apr 7, 2021
163
93
I apologize if this topic is in the incorrect forum, as I wasn't sure where else I should raise this.

As a fairly new air gunner, I recently had some incidents that could have easily caused me or someone within the immediate vicinity serious harm. Fortunately no one was harmed, and without going into detail of the disconcerting incidents I experienced. It made me wonder if the varying iterations of air propelled pistols, rifles, manuals and supporting accoutrement's, have some level of safety standards to adhere to. Similarly to how UL (Underwriter Laboratories) assess and apply safety standards to the myriad of products sold and used here in the U.S. and other countries.

While my goal here is not to impugn any individual manufacturer's product or this industry as a whole, I do see and have personally experienced some concerning safety gaps in this sporting genre. As such, I merely wish to better understand this topic and how it relates to our air sporting hobby. In the hopes of preventing potential adverse events from occurring to other newbies, myself and even well seasoned veteran air gunners.

I know I have much to learn. And when I initially got into this sport, I truly thought my years of experience with firearms, both as a young civilian and later within the military, would also apply to air gunning. However, air propelled platforms are much more complex than firearms, and there are many more things that can go wrong. Some of these nuances are "NOT" common sense and also very difficult to predict. They are also not always well explained by the manufacturers, dealers et al., and supporting manuals.

Which brings me back to why I started this thread. Which is to learn from other AGN members about how safety in this air sporting industry is perpetuated.
 
Welcome and yes you should always use caution when dealing with high pressure air. I may have missed it but did you have a specific question about air safety? I have found very little in printed material that pertains to the safe use of high pressure air in the sport of airguns. A good dose of common sense is your best guide , before you do anything new and or unfamiliar ask questions of yourself and others. What do I know about this how does it work and what could go wrong. If you can't answer these three on your own it's time to ask others who can before you proceed. Never let pride get in the way of safety. 
 
Upvote 0
In the US, DOT regulates gas containers, and the EU has its own agency. Decant tanks are regulated but most air tubes or bottles on airguns are not. Some manufacturers say that their onboard tanks require the same maintenance as a fill tank (visual annually and a hydro every five years and drop dead dates with periodic hydro for CF) - but it is only a warranty/liability disclaimer that cannot be enforced.

Ten years ago most traditional airguns took a 200 BAR fill (about 3000 psi). With the advent of big bore superguns shooting PB-like slugs some decant tanks are filled to 4500 psi and onboard tanks are sometimes filled to 4000.

HPA can be scary stuff. Working in the dive industry I experienced all sorts of mayhem from broken fill whips to total tank failure - and we were only filling to 3200 max using highgrade Luxfer and Catalina tanks. Todays high fill and working pressures require special attention. The risks are compounded by pressure vessels and airguns built offshore (mostly Asian) that talk the talk, but may not walk the walk. Caveat Emptor.

Another concern is folks who own compressors and use them to fill out of date CF tanks or metal tanks that will not pass hydro.

If you educate yourself and scrupulously follow the recommendations of a reputable manufacturer, all should be well. But if you deal with iffy equipment or think you know better than the DOT or manufacturer, property damage or personal injury or both may be in your future or the future of a loved one.

Don't be scared off. Just be careful. Airgunning is a rewarding sport. Welcome aboard - and enjoy!
 
Upvote 0
Yes, manufacturers do probably as much as reasonably possible to inform and educate airgun (and ladder, and chainsaw) consumers about safety features and precautions. One glance through the first few pages of most owners manuals is proof-positive of the manufacturers' efforts and litigation paranoia.

Not to be obnoxious, just realistic- "If all else fails, read the owners manual". 

Now to be obnoxious- "Common sense is not a common commodity".
 
Upvote 0
It comes down the the hubris of the individual. 99/100 people know that HPA or gunpowder is extremely dangerous. All credible sources, this forum included, will warn of the dangers.

In my opinion its time to stop worrying about that 1/100. They have proven they will disregard all good judgement even when given all warnings.

HPA is generally costly and niche. It is an interest of people that are generally enthusiast and want to do it right, and seek the right information.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blBGMUjlLiQ
 
Upvote 0
@Airtillery

As a fairly new air gunner, I recently had some incidents that could have easily caused me or someone within the immediate vicinity serious harm. Fortunately no one was harmed, and without going into detail of the disconcerting incidents I experienced. It made me wonder if the varying iterations of air propelled pistols, rifles, manuals and supporting accoutrement's, have some level of safety standards to adhere to. Similarly to how UL (Underwriter Laboratories) assess and apply safety standards to the myriad of products sold and used here in the U.S. and other countries.
Click to expand...

Hope this doesn't sound too cynical (or offend someone), but the above sounds like an attorney fishing expedition..

Airgun safety isn't rocket science..always treat every airgun as though loaded, never point toward something you don't intend to shoot, never over-fill a PCP, read the owner's manual twice..then read it again. When dealing with compressors..if you don't understand how they work or are willing to assume the risks involved with using one, then use a hand pump. Remember that even a hand pump can be dangerous unless you release the line pressure prior to pulling the fill-probe out. 

Almost everything in life requires some degree of common sense..airguns and accessories are no different.


 
Upvote 0
THIS IS THE 3RD TIME TONIGHT I'VE WRITTEN THIS AND IT'S THE SHORTEST. EACH TIME I INITIATE AN ACTION I'M SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OUTCOME. IT'S UP TO ME TO INSURE I WILL NOT DAMAGE PROPERTY OR INJURE A HUMAN BEING. THAT MEANS I MUST STUDY MY OPERATION MANUALS, MEMORIZE SAFETY PROCEDURES. I NEED TO LEARN ALL ABOUT THE NEW TELE BOOM FORKLIFT AT WORK, OR MY NEW MAVERICK. MANUFACTURES OF ALL THE EQUIPMENT WE USE IN OUR LIVES HAVE SAFETY DEPARTMENTS TO ENGINEER OUT HAZARDS, LEGAL DEPARTMENTS TO LOOK FOR DANGER ZONES. IT'S PRETTY MUCH UP TO US TO MEMORIZE THE TEN FIREARMS SAFETY RULES ( WHICH PROBABLY WOULD HAVE ELIMINATED THE NEAR MISSES YOU WITNESSED). I'VE BEEN SHOOTING SINCE I WAS ABOUT 8 ON MY UNCLE'S FARM WITH A DAISY BB GUN. I LEARNED IF YOU DON'T LATCH THE COCKING LEVER BEFORE PULLING THE TRIGGER YOUR FINGERS HURT THE WHOLE DAY. NO GOV. DEPT OR UNDERWRITERS LAB IS GOING TO GET YOU OF THE HOOK. EACH OF US IS SOLELY RESPONSIBLE ONE WE INITIATE THE ACTION. WE MUST MEMORIZE THE TEN SAFETY RULES OF FIREARMS, LEARN OUR OPERATION MANUALES, USE COMMON SENSE AND NEVER LOOK DOWN THE MUZZLE OF ANYTHING, SPRAYGUN, BB GUN, WATER HOSE AND NEVER POINT ANY OF THESE UNLESS WE REALLY INTEND TO HIT IT WITH WHAT EVER COMES OUT.
 
Upvote 0
Hi Brent. 

The premise of my question / curiosity was to try and understand if this industry has a mechanism that reviews or inspects the plethora of air propelled devices and supporting accessories & equipment. I haven't been able to find any info or documentation on this subject as well, which is why I am reaching out to the AGN community. Having grown up and around firearms nearly all my life and in while the military, I thought I had a fair dose of common sense when it comes to safety issues and handling guns in general. But had a rude awakening when a few incidents showed me that not all aspects of firearm safety crosses over into the air propelled world. Sure, the fundamentals of situational awareness of where barrels are pointed, as well as always assume any gun you handle is loaded, etc. But, in the air gunning realm, there are indeed more things to be aware of. And some of these things are not common sense to those that did not grow up around air guns, like myself. 

For example. When I got me a Rex, I was told about getting spare air tanks that you can carry with you to replace an empty tank without having to carry around a large fill tank to re-gas the tank. So based on this suggestion, as well as watching a host of videos on the Rex. With even some videos showing one swapping out the an empty tank for a full one. Based on these things, doing this seemed to me a wholly benign process. Nowhere in the manual, nor from the dealer, were there any warnings or advice on what could go wrong with changing out tanks. I was just simply told to unscrew an empty tank and screw on a full one, and wa-lah you're back to shooting as needed. 

Well much to my surprise, this process was not fraught with danger. Unbeknownst to me, some valves on the tanks protrude slightly more than others, and when screwed on, the breech or ammo feed tray can engage or open the valve. Well when this happened, nearly 3,600 psi or 250 bar of air shot out in an instant. At the end of the Rex shroud, I placed a soft rubber plug there to help prevent dust and moisture from entering into the barrel. As suggested by another fellow air gunning expert. This was shot out with full force into my wall at some unknown high fps. Fortunately it was pointed at a wall and no one was hurt, other than my eardrums and pilomotor nerves. Yet following that, it made me "wonder" about the safety issue as a whole and if, how or what steps the industry, its' manufacturers and dealers take to insure we all have a safe device to shoot with. Apparently, some of the inherent nuances of various pcp's, co2 markers, etc., aren't well known. Nor publicized in manuals, or even shared with new owners, such as myself. 

I firmly agree with your last sentence. I really thought I had covered or questioned all the safety bases. Before I ever got my first air gun, (which was actually a co2 pistol) I read and watched many videos on the subject, as well as dropped in various dealer chat services to pose my many questions. Unfortunately, some were very dismissive of my questions. Some were very cavalier and made very over simplification comments, as if all this was common sense. And nearly all had their vague caveats that HPA can be dangerous if used improperly, etc. It seemed most did not want to take the time or maybe just didn't have the time to address my questions. The 3 perquisite questions you mention only go so far in understanding all the nuances of air propelled devices. You darn near need to be an mechanical engineer or pneumatic physicist to be able to predict what could go wrong. In the case with Rex incident, I truly thought I had covered each base and probably, maybe where I made my mistake, was to trust what I was told. But, but. I really did not know, that I did not know (sorry for the tautology cliché) what could go wrong. I simply trusted what I was told and what I observed in varying videos on the Rex.

I guess Brent, all this is to try and cover the 3 question base's you so aptly mention. And this topic here is to ask the first question. However, on a more macro level. Which is, to try and understand the air gunning industry as it relates to providing not only safe products, but to also ask, if the critical safety information, that may not be readily available to a now burgeoning newbie like myself, is appropriately and timely disseminated?
 
Upvote 0
I understand what you are saying here. Yes, all the common sense and the regular firearms safety items apply to airguns... but dealing with high pressure air is another matter altogether. 

Two pieces of advice I would give to new shooters

1. Find someone local who is experienced and learn from them; especially if getting into PCP

Failing that

2. Find someone on the forum who is ok with personal contact such as email of phone whom you can ask the 'dumb questions' to. This forum is full of wonderful people who will try to help, but in any forum situation, there are those who will condescend to a degree and make folks not want to post a lot of 'simple' questions. 

I'm a bit surprised by the recommendation you got to place a plug over the shroud. Any such item is a potential projectile (as you found out). 

When dealing with fittings and filling and swapping tanks, etc extra caution must be made. I still have guns that I can swap tanks on the fly on and I just dont do it...even now. It doesnt seem safe to me and at the very least, gives extra stress on o rings and so I just refill as needed. 


 
Upvote 0
As I posted to your thread on GTA by putting a rubber plug in the end of the barrel you were in fact working on a loaded gun. Does anybody work on a firearm with the round in the chamber. Why are you putting a plug in the muzzle end of your barrel? Do you do that with a firearm? If you do,why? Consider this,pcps are loaded separately with the propellant and the projectile unlike a firearm where it's combined in a cartridge. 
 
Upvote 0
Sorry, DesertSilver I should have better elaborated on the use of my debris and moisture prevention adapter. This was done from the advice I gleaned as a preventive measure to keep dirt, debris and most importantly moisture from entering the barrel. Which has just as recently as today been further recommended by others, but instead of the "very" soft rubber plug, use a condom like cover or some thin like plastic film instead . While I was in the military, we would in fact cover the barrel with parts of a surgical rubber glove, used condom or even a plastic bag to keep unwanted debris and moisture out of the barrel and the direct impingement gas tube. 

But the whole point of my post isn't about what did, but if, what and how safety standards are managed and disseminated in the air gun industry. I was just simply wondering about this following the incident. I could "not" have had a plug in the "shroud" of my Rex, and instead maybe some object, tool, pen or whatever somewhere in front of or adjacent to the barrel, and with 250 bar of air blasting down a barrel in a split second, it would likely blast X object to who knows where and how fast. The point is, it had "never" dawned on me that this could happen. Why? Well for one, it is and would be on me by not knowing all the inner workings and physics of a valve. And secondly, as I have already stated, this was not addressed anywhere in the manual that this could occur. Nor was I told about this possibility, "after" being sold the spare tanks and me directly asking how do I go about swapping tanks. And after watching a host of videos and seeing various air gunners swap out full air tanks, with no mention or warnings about the valve issue, myself or any "novice" air gunner would not have any way of knowing that this could occur. Furthermore, as I've previously bemoaned, with saying who, the different individuals I queried about HPA, PCP's, etc., most were quite dismissive and borderline arrogant, with an attitude that air gunning is not rocket science. One fellow, over simplified the filling of a tank or pcp, by essentially stating you just open the tank valve and fill up your pcp to the recommended psi and bleed off the air when done. At the time, I believed him there was not much at all to it. 

Now this is probably going to blow an o'ring in everyone's mind (if anyone at this point would really care, lol). I literally had absolutely no clue that air guns, pcp's, co2 markers, etc., even existed. The only guns I ever knew about were actual firearms. Before late last year, I had "never" been around, nor ever handled or shot an air / gas propelled gun. I really did not know they even existed. So in a matter of a few months, I crammed all the knowledge I could as if I were in college again, to learn and teach myself more about this incredible platform. I was fascinated when I came to discover that you could shoot a gun using air as the propellent! I am now OBSESSED with all this and in the next couple of months I will have my first anniversary since procuring my first, real pcp!

Sorry I am long winded and I hope I have not ticked anyone off with this subject. Although, it seems there were a few that were "almost" perturbed by my topic and even mischaracterized my whole premise. Even accusing me of being some legal beagle with an ulterior motive??? Man, I just don't want to be hurt, die or worst yet, cause another any harm whilst shooting me pcp! Other than that is is good to be an AGN member and look forward to advancing my skills and knowledge...out
 
Upvote 0
Thanks Rob! Those are indeed great pieces of advice to adhere to. So far being here on AGN has been an outstanding experience. While I hate to pit one forum over another, and maybe this is another topic in itself. I truly believe that the AGN forum, with respects to the look and feel and its' navigational layout is of superior quality than...?
 
Upvote 0
Call me naive but I always assumed no one could be in the military unless they had been on a paintball field and familiar with air........
Click to expand...

If any one is naive, it is me, due to my not having the knowledge that the modern pcp airgun existed at this point in my life. However, is it so difficult a prospect to believe that myself or others have not been exposed to, or ever shot an air or paintball gun before? I have several friends that have never heard of pcp airgun's nor the power they're capable of. And when I showed them and let them shoot some of what I have, their amazement was priceless!

May I ask if you ever served in the military? If so, when did you serve, what branch and did your training entail using paintball guns in basic or advanced training? If you hadn't served, I am interested in learning about where you derived your assumptions from, and if there was a point to your question?

Many decades ago when I went through all my different trainings starting with Basic, AIT (Advanced Individual Training), ROTC, Airborne Jump school, etc., we "always" trained with real firearm weapons. Air propelled guns or the like were not something we ever used. When we would train or practice war time scenarios with our weapons, we used the MILES (Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement Systems). Each weapon was equipped with a laser transmitter and each soldier would wear a vest that had several laser receivers that would engage if shot. So no, I had not been exposed to any air or paintball guns prior to serving in the military. 

While I had heard about them in the periphery ends of my life, it was never something directly on my radar. As I much too involved in cycle racing and triathlons back then. As well as my side hobby of shooting the various firearms I owned. I even got into reloading my own ammo to save on the expense of buying manufactured ammo. Air guns, co2 paintball markers and the like was not something my friends and me ever dabbled in. As you likely read, I literally discovered air propelled systems less than a year ago, by accident.

Now that I addressed your query. Since the topic of my post was simply to try and understand if, what and how the air gunning industry goes about manufacturing and testing the safety of said air based equipment for public consumption. Could I have you interject any experience or knowledge you have on this issue? And respectfully, wouldn't proffering what information and knowledge you can lend to my query, be less tangentially divergent to my safety standard topic? Instead of whether or not I had paintball experience before or during my military service? I truly want to say your question was without an agenda and benign. But after I started this topic, I have been met with quite a bit of hostility, false accusations and a host of idiomatic clichés, here and in the other forums. By my simply wondering and asking about how the industry insures all their manufactured equipment has been rigorously tested and safe across the board. I have no ulterior motive. I am just curious about learning more about this industry I have come to enjoy, plain and simple. For who wouldn't want to know that the 4.5k psi tank or so, they have their cheek, hand or body around is not going to experience some catastrophic failure that could cause serious injury or death? Please see this video as follows: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1hrms0i2LU

(Go to the 2min 20 second mark to skip forward). 



Thanks for taking the time to read through some or all of my posts and hope your be able to share any relevant knowledge you may possess.
 
Upvote 0
The OP's question may have been settled on GTA: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=191187.0
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm still a newbie here and was curious what "OP" means? Thanks...
Click to expand...

OP = original poster.



The guy that shot that valve body through his thigh in that video had modified the pistol to use a Disco valve (stated earlier in the video). Who knows what grade capscrews he used to hold it in place. In any event, the stock screw they removed may also have been carrying load holding the valve in place. If so, then letting the air out first was the right thing to have done. When in doubt - let the air out.

When modifying a PCP, all bets are off. You take total responsibility for the chosen components working together as intended. The manufacturer's manual states not to disassemble this pistol, but to send it to an authorized service center: https://www.pyramydair.com/airgun-resources/manuals/benjamin-marauder-air-pistol-manual.pdf



The paintball comment above, was absolutely meant as a joke.




 
Upvote 0
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Resources
Menu