Air Gun Accuracy

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From another thread, regarding accuracy at 100 yds...

The biggest factor at 100 yds. is wind/air turbulence.

You’re at the mercy of the environment with slow, light pellets vs 3000fps bullets. 
Sometimes it’s nearly impossible to tell if an errant 100yd. shot was my fault, the pellets fault or the environment.

Unless of course you shoot sorted, sized pellets indoors with the HVAC turned off.

“addertooth said”
Use a copy of Hawke Chairgun Pro with your pellet of choice, at the velocity you shoot at. Then see where your strike is with a 2 mph wind (set wind direction at 270 degrees), and then run it with a 7 mph wind and look at the difference in strike (left to right). 

Exactly.

The difference between 25yds and 100yds w/ a 2mph wind is about 2″. And that’s only 2mph. 
Now, with a 7mph wind (only 5mph extra breeze) the difference is nearly 9″!

And we’re not even talking about thermals; hot concrete ground up range vs grass or dirt down range will cause all kind of crazy thermals that reek havoc on a light pellet, up, down sideways – measured in inches at 100yds.

Just have fun at 100 yds., don’t judge an airgun's accuracy at this range.

(Edit: the same applied to a 55gr .223 at ~3000fps at 100yds. 5mph wind change, is only ~3/4″!)

 
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Ginuwine1969.

If we are to compare accuracy expectations we have to have a standard form of comparison or you can not compare. That is my point. MOA is a standard form. Measuring ctc is a standard form.

Obviously we can not have a "Standard Expectation" of accuracy as everyone's expectation's are different. You think hitting a quarter at 50 is impressive. I think if it was turned sideway you may have my interest. You think 3 moa or 1.5 inch is o.k. If my airguns did not shoot 1 moa or better it would get sold and I would buy something that did or stick to powder until they did.

I think the higher the dollar amount the higher the standard expectation is. I know I didn't buy a $3000 airgun to have it not shoot. And yes it cost $3000 when you live in Canada and our dollar sucks.



 
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"Ginuwine1969"Broekzwans: Think you are a little confused my airgun brother, it's all subjective how you have to hold your gun, how you have to measure, what accuracy really means, what is a good or unacceptable group. Nothing is black or white, if you are shooting and it is working for you then no one can tell you, you are doing it wrong. If i want to measure edge to edge then guess what, that's how i do it. If i believe accuracy is hitting what you aim at (bull eyes) and my group is centered on that, then again it's perfectly acceptable. If someone choices to aim at a bull eye and consistently hits 1 inch to the right and half inch low and forms a half inch group and is happy, then who am i to tell him that his group is great but his accuracy sucks. I do know how to measure CTC and i used to do it in the past. The titled does say Air Gun Accuracy, but the point of the discussion, and its just that, was expectation of accuracy from our guns, in reference to them being defective. What is a reasonable MOA for an average shooter to expect after purchasing an new gun. It came from a lot of us turning our guns back in to AOA for repair because of accuracy issues. So when asked how bad it was lets say 1/2 at 50 yards, lets say 1 inch at 50 yards, lets say 2 inches at 50 yards, what about 4 inches. When is it the shooter and when is it just plain ole the gun is defective. There are many post on what accuracy is to many different people and i'm not here to debate that. Just wanted to get an idea of a base line should an expensive gun (2000.00)have a better MOA at 75 yards than a cheaper gun(500.00)? There has got to be a starting point and I believe that some have that bar a little high (my opinion). If you think your gun must shot less than MOA at 50 yards then i feel you are delusional. As mentioned if you can great but that is not a base line. I do believe if you can group at 3 MOA at 50 yards from any gun over 500 bucks you should send it in for repair. A lot of people thing 3 MOA damn that's a lot, is it? 3 MOA at 50 YARDS is inch and a half or 3.8 centimeters or 38 millimeters. They are all SLIGHTLY larger than a quarter 2.5 centimeters. That is a group that a lot of people would be happy with in there NEW gun. Know once you get to know it and all its characteristics you may get the groups down to 1 or less MOA. Hope that is straight enough for ya.

Shelby: I agree with most of what you are saying, most guns do out shoot the shooter no doubt. The more we know proper technic and apply them our shooting can only get better. But again I think you observation of what 3 MOA really looks like at 50 yards can you even see a quarter at 50 yards on the ground with out a scope? I can hit a quarter 10 out of 10 at 25 yards, i can hit a quarter 9 out of 10 at 50 yards, i can hit a quarter 6 out of 10 at 75 yards and i'm about 50 / 50 at 100 and I"m damn happy about that, but i'm not going to say if your gun can do that then it must be defective and a quarter is a hair shy of 2 MOA at 50 yards. I believe a dime is a hair or 2 bigger than 1 MOA at 50 yards. Perspective and expectation. 1 MOA is great i think it is just to much to expect before calling a gun a lemon.
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Most things are black and white, it's the peoples interpretation that makes it gray ;)
I never said there is only one correct way of shooting and the rest is wrong. In most cases when guns don't shows decent groups it's the shooter or the used pellets.

As said before: A decent airgun should be able to stay within 1 MOA @ 50 yards (indoors) in my opinion, this doesn't mean that it should do that right out of the box with the first tin of pellets laying in front of you. It takes practice and research. If you've tried different decent pellets and it still won't group within 2 inches at 50 yards right out of the box I think something is wrong. That can be a due to a bad research up front from the shooter (maybe it's just a known problem of the gun) or a defective gun. From what I've read some people have the same opinion. If you don't agree with that, that's fine but don't start calling people delusional when there's nothing unrealistic about their opinion.

By the way, I think .177 (and .20) are very hard to take into account with the 50 yards accuracy. Especially in outdoor conditions these should be measured at 25/30 meters because the pellets are so light and susceptible to the environment.

To come back to the black/white/gray: you'll never find an answer that satisfies everyone, target shooters have way higher demands than plinkers, even from the same gun. Everybody is having it's own interpretation on this topic.
 
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@ Shelby78 Me… Wish I knew how to quote properly.
When I say I can shoot better than moa I am talking about shooting groups. I do not move my gun when I shoot groups. You are talking about something completely different. Shooting a card you move the gun for every shot.



Ok Shelby78 I shoot both groups and single shot bulleyes. MOA is really a 100 yard measure but almost everyone uses it across the board. So if a target bull is 1 inch across and we use it at 50 yards and every shot is within that red area that would be less than moa? If using moa at 50 yards the first shot can be center bullseye the second shot can be left .50" and the third shot can be .50" right. Your gun has still shot moa but the group will look much larger than the half inch standard. To be what we are talking about here the POI only has to be within 1/2 inch of POA? Of course many are only worried about MOS*?



*Minute Of Squirrel ;)
 
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"Goodtogo"@ Shelby78 Me… Wish I knew how to quote properly.
When I say I can shoot better than moa I am talking about shooting groups. I do not move my gun when I shoot groups. You are talking about something completely different. Shooting a card you move the gun for every shot.



Ok Shelby78 I shoot both groups and single shot bulleyes. MOA is really a 100 yard measure but almost everyone uses it across the board. So if a target bull is 1 inch across and we use it at 50 yards and every shot is within that red area that would be less than moa? If using moa at 50 yards the first shot can be center bullseye the second shot can be left .50" and the third shot can be .50" right. Your gun has still shot moa but the group will look much larger than the half inch standard. To be what we are talking about here the POI only has to be within 1/2 inch of POA? Of course many are only worried about MOS*?



*Minute Of Squirrel ;)
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I think most refer to MOA at a distance and it's defined at ~1" at 100 yds, so MOA at 25 yds is .25", 50 yds 1/2", 75 yds 3/4", 100 yds 1", 200 yds 2"..... etc.

i shoot MOA, off a rest, easily at 50 yds. (measured CTC) - at 100 yds the environment is a BIG factor in airgun/pellet accuracy. Sub MOA at 50yds. sounds like an accurate airgun to me.

 
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"Goodtogo"@ Shelby78 Me… Wish I knew how to quote properly.
When I say I can shoot better than moa I am talking about shooting groups. I do not move my gun when I shoot groups. You are talking about something completely different. Shooting a card you move the gun for every shot.



Ok Shelby78 I shoot both groups and single shot bulleyes. MOA is really a 100 yard measure but almost everyone uses it across the board. So if a target bull is 1 inch across and we use it at 50 yards and every shot is within that red area that would be less than moa? If using moa at 50 yards the first shot can be center bullseye the second shot can be left .50" and the third shot can be .50" right. Your gun has still shot moa but the group will look much larger than the half inch standard. To be what we are talking about here the POI only has to be within 1/2 inch of POA? Of course many are only worried about MOS*?



*Minute Of Squirrel ;)



To: Goodtogo 

I am always concerned with mos. I like to head shoot small game and small game have small heads. the tighter my groups the less I have to think.

If you shot one shot center bull at 50, next .5 left, next .5 right of center shot you did not shoot moa with your 3 shots combined. You shot moa with one and two or one and three. You did shoot within .5 of your poi but that is not moa.

A Minute of Angle (MOA) is an angular measurement. You can't change how angles work.A MOA is 1/60th of a degree. 1 inch total width at 50 yards is 2 moa.

This is not just a 100 yard measure.

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The US military requires the battle rifle be capable of 3.5 MOA (roughly one milrad). Well they did when I joined up half a century ago. Mine would group under a dime at 25 meters. I thought that was pretty good when in truth it is about a mil.

Generally speaking people who post their groups, post their best groups. They have a dozen bad days and nothing gets posted on line. They have one great day and they are motivated to put that up on the forums and one should not blame them. Some folks just think their rifle actually shoots better than it does. Actually a LOT of people think their rifle shoots better than it actually does. This bleeds over into the forums and taints the water that the noobies find here.

I invite those of you who think a rifle should be capable of shooting MOA from the factory to take this challenge:
https://www.oldspooks.com/agstuff/Targets/challenges/Ten-dimes-challenge.pdf 
That's for springers. If you are a gasser take it out to 50 yards with the same target.

Get back to me after you have done it, 'cause it ain't braggin' if ya done it, but it is just braggin' until you DO.


 
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True, but edge to edge says your spread is 1/2" when in reality it's 1/4", MOA at 25 vice 2 MOA. 

(Edit: and for fun I'll shoot your dime target tomorrow if the winds are reasonable and post the results. AirWolf with a new March 3-24, it REALY makes things easier. At 50 yards I'm looking for 2-3 pelllet width accuracy (1/2 - 1 MOA) winds considered.

I think it makes it easier to think in terms of pellet heads imagined as a dart points, and forget the skirt widths.

How far apart are the dart heads, not the feather skirts at the end. 
 
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"DellaDog"True, but edge to edge says your spread is 1/2" when in reality it's 1/4", MOA at 25 vice 2 MOA.
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I like your points at the top of this page WRT 100 yard accuracy. You are testing the shooter at 100 yards more than the rifle. This is also true of PB rifles. A PB that might actually be an MOA rifle becomes a 2 MOA rifle at 100 yards in a 10 mph variable wind unless the rifleman is very good at doping wind.
 
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Well I can tell you this much I wouldn't want to be down range if any of you are mad at me! One of you might decide I need my ears pierced (and yes according to my very loving wife they are bigger targets than what you guys are hitting) I have always just drawn a circle around my groups outer line and measured the radius.
I wish I can find one again but an archery buddy of mine had a device that looked something like a camera iris and as it opened and closed it showed the measurement you opened it until it matched the outside edges of your group and it told you your group size.
 
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"Goodtogo"@ Shelby78 Me… Wish I knew how to quote properly.
When I say I can shoot better than moa I am talking about shooting groups. I do not move my gun when I shoot groups. You are talking about something completely different. Shooting a card you move the gun for every shot.



Ok Shelby78 I shoot both groups and single shot bulleyes. MOA is really a 100 yard measure but almost everyone uses it across the board. So if a target bull is 1 inch across and we use it at 50 yards and every shot is within that red area that would be less than moa? If using moa at 50 yards the first shot can be center bullseye the second shot can be left .50" and the third shot can be .50" right. Your gun has still shot moa but the group will look much larger than the half inch standard. To be what we are talking about here the POI only has to be within 1/2 inch of POA? Of course many are only worried about MOS*?



*Minute Of Squirrel ;)
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No offense (and perhaps I misunderstood a portion of the post) but MOA is not a 100 yard measure, nor a measure at any fixed distance. It is an angle -or a cone if you will- that expands to approx 10" @ 1000yds, 1" @ 100yds, .5" @ 50yds, .25" @ 25yds, .2" @ 20yds etc...

Staying inside a 1" bull at 50yds does not necessarily mean that the group (ctc) is MOA. In fact, it could be nearly twice that. 

Apologies if if that's what was meant and I misunderstood the post. 

 
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"oldspook"The US military requires the battle rifle be capable of 3.5 MOA (roughly one milrad). Well they did when I joined up half a century ago. Mine would group under a dime at 25 meters. I thought that was pretty good when in truth it is about a mil.

Generally speaking people who post their groups, post their best groups. They have a dozen bad days and nothing gets posted on line. They have one great day and they are motivated to put that up on the forums and one should not blame them. Some folks just think their rifle actually shoots better than it does. Actually a LOT of people think their rifle shoots better than it actually does. This bleeds over into the forums and taints the water that the noobies find here.

I invite those of you who think a rifle should be capable of shooting MOA from the factory to take this challenge:
https://www.oldspooks.com/agstuff/Targets/challenges/Ten-dimes-challenge.pdf 
That's for springers. If you are a gasser take it out to 50 yards with the same target.

Get back to me after you have done it, 'cause it ain't braggin' if ya done it, but it is just braggin' until you DO.



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Sure wish I'd saved the targets from back in the day, but I had an AR-10T bull barreled .308 that shot < .5 MOA right out of the box with Black Hills Match ammo. And I'm a crummy shot, so it was all gun and very little to do with me.

I'm brand new to PCP. If I can reliably crank out MOA with my Wildcat while rested, in no wind, I will be thrilled. Anything better than that, I will sure as heck be posting the results and trolling for pats on the back :)

Great thread, and I wanna say I'm very appreciative to be here. 
 
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