Air Arms Galahad

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"zebra"
"rockymtbiker"I would concur that the styling is awkward: Overly large barrel/cylinder gap, a breech that looks like it was inspired by the steam-punk movement, an overly-small shroud that seems designed for inefficiency of function. The stock has some lyrical lines. Overall I am almost irritated by how the airgun manufacturers in general ignore the information available from consumers. Ever since the bullpup craze hit the airgun field we've been asking why do these short, handy little guns weigh so much. It's paradoxical; you design a short, maneuverable carbine seemingly intended for field use and then weigh it down with overly bulky wooden stocks or equally massive cheap synthetic stocks. Now we see three additional bullpups enter the fray (Ataman, Hatsan and AA) and the lightest entry weighs 8 lbs. It's almost insulting; we know that company reps visit some of the forums from time to time and yet no one listens (never mind the customers, we're the experts).

Like I said, I'm getting irritated; think I'll grab my 5 lb Ruger 10/22 and go for a walk and cool down. :)
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I also prefer lighter air rifles but I wouldn't call it paradoxical when a bullpup weighs the same as a full length rifle. The key point of the bullpup design is that it retains the same full length barrel and air cylinder as it's longer rifle configuration. The only difference is the stock and the addition of a trigger connection. As most of the weight is in the action, barrel and cylinder, there is no reason it should be lighter without a redesign. This is just an S510 in a new dress based on what the description says.

The thing with bullpups is that they are center balanced which makes them feel considerably lighter to shoulder than a rifle of identical weight. It is the front-heavy nature of PCP rifles that makes many of them unsuitable for off-hand shooting. 

That being said, it doesn't feel like many of these companies are making an effort to reduce weight. They are clearly not hunters. We see very little use of modern lightweight composites like fiberglass or carbon fiber which are more suitable for bullpups than wood. Wood requires a lot of bulk to be strong and stable which makes it heavy. Firearms users have had the option to buy carbon fiber wrapped barrelsfor a while now but so far this has eluded the air gun community. A 6.5lb weight target for a bullpup is not unreasonable. 8lb is the limit of what is acceptable for me. 9lb is an abomination. 

I think it was a mistake to recycle the S510. It is materially less powerful than the Cricket, Wildcat, Vulcan and it's hard to get excited about it. I'll probably just ignore it like I do with all the other Air Arms guns. There is too much competition and they are late to the party. 

As for the looks, well that is just taste. I generally like the look of most bullpups. I don't care for this one much but mainly because of the wooden stock. The gap looks like there is a piece missing. It's not terrible though.



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I see your point, and to a certain extent agree. However, my frustration comes from what I perceive as manufacturers failing to take advantage of the bullpup platform in order to produce a field-friendly weapon that is not only short and compact but light as well. I think part of the issue is cultural; my perception is that the popularity of bullpups in Eastern Europe and Russia springs from the effort to produce guns that are easy to handle from automobiles, so weight is not a really important issue. However, no one seems to be listening to the feedback and we keep seeing "new" bullpups on which the stocks seem to have been installed as an afterthought and obviously without reading the forums.

I shouldn't say no one. There are actually hopeful signs on the horizon:

Snowpeak is evidently preparing to produce a follow-up to the P10 and P12. Here is the short string: http://airgunnation.dev/topic/the-most-casual-pcp-p2015/
The prototype actually weighs 4.6 lbs but still I think you would agree that that is 4.6 lbs is a fairly impressive departure from the norm.

It gets better. Enter the RAR VL-12: http://russia-air-rifle.com/products/vl-12-bullpup/ Note that the "large" model weighs a whopping 3.9 lbs. The good news in this is that RAR has reputedly been purchased by Kalibrgun and the rifles should arrive here by the end of the year.

But let's take it a step further. Suppose a manufacturer actually started listening to forum feedback and decided to make the ultimate hunting pcp. Take the minimalist design of the VL-12 and marry it to this: http://air-ordnance.com/modoc-p-963.html I know, I know, what do they have in common? Actually nothing, but there is, I believe, a really game-changing innovation (actually two, perhaps) hidden in the Modoc: An aluminum barrel. What a natural marriage for the low pressure, low temperature environment of pcp's. Take your minimalist VL-12 bullpup, replace the traditional steel barrel with a choked aluminum barrel, and I suspect the weight would be about the same as a S&W Model 29 .44 mag handgun with a 6.5" barrel. Add a carbon fiber moderator to the VL-12 and the bullpup would likely be lighter than the handgun. Does anyone else find it ironic that Air Ordnance would debut the innovations of aluminum barrel and self-contained air reservoir/valve assemblies on a 19th Century blackpowder replica?

So perhaps there is hope that some manufacturers are listening. I take heart that AA is evidently already responding to feedback. I just wish the entire industry were as responsive.

 
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I asked Kalibrgun about "Russia Air rifle" about a month ago because I thought the stock looked interesting and it appeared to be made using Kalibrgun parts. Unfortunately, doesn't look like it will ever see the light of day. The guy I talked to from Kalibrgun told me that they have 3 of their prototypes in their factory and as far as he knew, these were the only 3 ever made. The person that makes them has apparently disappeared and has stopped answering his phone which doesn't seem like the step before a full US launch...

4.5lb for a full sized bullpup? I'll believe it when I see it. It is not unknown for Chinese manufacturers to state the weight without the stock. They have been known to tell blatant lies too. 

The only way I could see a cheap bullpup being 4.5lb is if it uses a trigger frame instead of a full stock (like on the Airforce guns). It seems unrealistic that of all the manufacturers, the cheap Chinese import would be the one to finally adopt lightweight composites like carbon fiber. Using a trigger frame is not necessarily bad. A chunky elaborate stock is not strictly necessary on a pcp rifle. There is no recoil or major stress to deal with. You just need somewhere to attach a pistol grip, a trigger guard and a small butt-stock. The air cylinder can double as a fore-grip. All that wood is mostly cosmetic. 

I like nice wood on a traditional rifle but I have always thought it belongs nowhere near a bullpup or any modern product design. You wouldn't use it to build a car, golf clubs, iPads or cell phones because it's a poor choice when weight and durability are important. 

Btw, a carbon fiber shroud is no guarantee of a weight saving. I have a Neil Clague carbon fiber LDC for my Career 707 and it weighs a ton because it's full of metal baffles. We would need a new lightweight material for the baffles to save some real weight. Any solid steel, aluminum and even titanium parts are going to be heavy.

The key piece of missing info on the AA bullpup is the price. If they plan on selling it for $600 then people will probably ease up on the criticism. If they plan on charging $500 on top of the price of the regular S510, just because it's a bullpup, then people will judge it accordingly. 

They should start with clearer goals for their products imo. The goal shouldn't be to create a bullpup because there is a bullpup craze. The goal should be to create a great hunting rifle or bench rest gun etc. Once you know what you're building, it's easier to focus on what's important. A hunting bullpup should be light, maneuverable, hard to damage and powerful. The AA bull pup is none of those things. If it was sold as a benchrest gun then none of us would comment about the weight but it doesn't look great for that either. 

I think the biggest barrier to weight savings right now is that none of the major manufacturers have any experience in manufacturing woven composites like carbon fiber. There is a lot of old dogs avoiding learning new tricks. It needs one to be the first and then the others will have no choice. 





 
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Disappointing news on the VL-12. It is Petr over at Topgun who says they will arrive by the end of the year so perhaps Kalibrgun has found a solution.

Go over to the TAG forum and search the P12 bullpup forum for P2015. There were a series of pictures posted of the P15 barreled action as well as the completed gun on a digital scale. Of course just because there are pictures doesn't mean it really exists.

Perhaps we'll get some clarification next week at IWA.

But we both definitely agree that the manufacturers, as a whole, have not thought through creating a bullpup that takes advantage of the format and there seems to almost be a prejudice against lightweight composites. The thing that I find most irritating is that it really wouldn't require expertise since there are obviously small companies out there making lightweight composite stocks, so all a manufacturer would have to do is partner with one of them. This is the source of my irritation; that the airgun manufacturers are evidently willfully ignoring our feedback and refusing to simply make the effort.
 
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When I asked Kalibrgun why they don't offer carbon fiber stocks, it was clear that the barrier was knowledge. Their wood guy had told them that making a cf stock would require a lengthy development cycle. When I explained why that wouldn't be necessary, they seemed interested in learning more about it. They already have the aluminum tooling which they use to cast their composite stocks. It could easily be used for carbon fiber too. 

There are people like that who block progress in every company. They always have a reason why any new idea can't be achieved but never a solution. When you dig in, it is usually about protecting their job. The wood guy doesn't vote for carbon fiber like the turkey doesn't vote for thanksgiving.... I bet the Kolibri disaster has knocked their confidence to Try something new too. 

Being objective, carbon fiber parts are not easy to make on a large scale. Even prepreg materials require 45 minutes of curing in the oven per stock so it is not the right material (yet) for the next Marauder. For the brands that sell $1500 air guns, their production is on a far smaller scale. Compared to hand-finishing walnut stocks, carbon fiber is a walk in the park. 

I think FX is so successful right now because they are one of the few who seems to listen to their customers. It's not rocket science. It's far easier to tailor a product to the taste of their customers than it is to try to convince people that what they really want is whatever you want to sell them. The Wildcat is nothing radical. It's just a lightweight bullpup with a mid-position side lever. It's great for hunters. The Bobcat is a fine air gun but too bulky to carry in the woods. They listened and were rewarded. I think they have too many models but with each one, I can identify who it might appeal to. I can't do that with some other brands. Success can easily cause arrogance but FX's willingness to accept feedback is impressive and creates loyalty. 

Interesting on the Russia air guns. kalibrgun is listed as the contact on their site so you would think they would have up to date knowledge but it is possible that something changed after the show in Vegas a few weeks ago. I'll ask them. I hope it is coming to America. I love tactical bullpups! I think I would prefer that they made that stock available for my Cricket instead though. 

I would like to see a greater focus on aftermarket upgrades. People in America love to customize, mod and upgrade. The AR platform is successful for this reason. I don't want to have to buy a whole new air rifle every year, just to get a few incremental improvements. I love my Cricket and I want to keep it. Anything I don't like on it can be fixed with aftermarket upgrades such as lightweight stocks and a side-lever extension arm. 

The company who makes the truly modular air gun platform will take a majority of the market. The Impact is on the way but not there yet. It needs to be the air gun equivalent of the AR platform so the customer can choose their preferred breach, barrel, caliber, stock design, materials, cocking action, cylinder size and materials, pistol grip, butt stock etc. Parts should be made under license by any manufacturer. This way you always have access to the latest innovations without amassing a large collection of air guns you don't use anymore. Plus, even the fussiest of customers can't complain about an air rifle that is made to their chosen specs. 

There are too many proprietary designs with air guns. They spend too much time reinventing the wheel instead of innovating. The basic mechanics and design of PCP rifles hasn't changed in the last 100 years. Why constantly redesign the same thing instead of focusing on stuff you can actually improve... Ironically, I think the limited number of CF bottle manufacturers which force some degree of standardization so, when new players enter the market, there will be a common interchangeable design. 








 
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Zebra, I know you're really knowledgeable about CF. Read an article a few months ago about NASA doing extensive testing with CF that doesn't require kiln curing and the preliminary results were quite positive. Seems like that might offer a solution for these companies who already offer "synthetic stocks" which they seem to want to make out of the heaviest polymers they can find. Would also allow for the production of lightweight baffles/shrouds for CF moderators.

I'm hoping that IWA is more illuminating that SHOT. Evidently Kalibrgun has said they're bringing a semi-auto (but they're saying it's not the Colibri). I share your appreciation of tactical designs so am hoping that the VL-12 or variant thereof will be there as well. Surely Evegny has something up his sleeve over at Air Gun Technologies. Guess we'll know a week from Thursday.
 
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If NASA are testing something it will probably be a while before any air gun manufacturers invest in it unfortunately. They aren't exactly the most up to date of industries. In the meantime, there is already a viable option for high end brands to make CF air gun products.

It will be awesome when low cost mass production makes it viable for your Marauder-level gun which is where most of the PCP market is at. 

I also have an interest in seeing a semi-auto bullpup. It solves the side lever position problem and makes rifles ambidextrous. FX proved that it's possible for a pcp gun without causing accuracy problems. We just need a 25 cal bullpup version that doesn't need batteries.... It just needs to be done well. Currently, air gun manufacturers have enough trouble with consistent quality control on manual cocking guns... The obvious fear with a semi auto air gun is that it will stop working 3 hours after the warranty runs out.

A semi auto gun means you don't have to break position between shots which will help produce tighter groups for many people. I'm not sure Kalibrgun are the right brand to bring out the next semi-auto though. The Kolibri name is not one that is worth recycling given that the first attempt didn't work at all. Makes me wonder if AOA even told them that every single one had to be fixed by a third party to function at all....
 
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:). Hear you on the airgun manufacturers reading NASA technical journals. But totally agree that mass production (which goes hand-in-hand with finding a non-kiln curing process in my opinion) holds great promise. I see the massive use of CF in the auto industry as another force to encourage this development.

We're getting way off topic but it's a fascinating discussion. Thanks.

Have you looked at any of the Russian videos on YouTube of semi-auto designs? Some of them look quite interesting, though most of the ones I've watched seem to be operating within the Russian 3J limitation. The language barrier makes it impossible for me to discern details. I would think it would be a bit more challenging to make a 30 ft-lb semi.

I think you're right about Kalibrgun wanting to put the Colibri behind them, but evidently they got a lot of positive feedback at SHOT this year and are not discounting bringing it back. But they made it clear that the semi they're bringing to IWA is not the Colibri.
 
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It's easy to get off topic when AA gave us such a boring bullpup to talk about....

I don't think there is any issue with making a 30ft lb semi auto. That is what the FX Revolution and Monsoon puts out. I think that gas tube designs would be even more effective as the power goes up. That's what happens with firearms anyway.

If you want to see what has been done before with semi and full auto air guns, do a google search for the "Caselman .30 cal full auto air gun". You'll see how air gun manufacturers have made very little if any progress in the last 30 years. This guy made an air rifle design in his home shop in the 80's that I would buy without question if it was available today. 125ft lb full auto .30 caliber!

I must confess that I have not been keeping up to date on my Russian YouTube clips. I do know they have some cool air gun stuff over there and they have a lot of cool bullpups in particular.
 
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:). Hear you on yet another boat anchor bullpup. BTW, checked out the IWA official site yesterday and clicked on Kalibrgun's website. Kalibrgun has already posted a "Plastik 2" Cricket. Looks like it's using a polymer stock modeled after the original skeleton design; total weight of 2.9 kg. If they would just make it out of CF they would finally be on the right track. Baby steps perhaps.

Looked up the Caselman; thanks. You know if you shortened the recoil spring tube and used the Talon Tunes AirForce drop down tank/valve connection, tank cheekpiece and CF tank; it would even look as cool as it performs. The CF tank, in addition to lightening the weight, would also allow the gun to operate at 3600 psi. Looks like an opportunity for a new airgun company.

You're right about the Russians doing a lot of innovation with airguns. It's unfortunate that they have such repressive exportation regulations. Perhaps the new "capitalist" zeitgeist and ortgeist will eventually make their innovations accessible to the world.
 
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I think the Caselman design looks identical (almost) to the Air Ordnance smg air machine gun. It's almost like they copied it or something.

I particularly like how Caselman designed the mag to work just like a regular firearm smg mag instead of a rotary design with limited capacity. I know that this probably limits your choice of ammo (just like a firearm) but I can think of designs to get around this. I generally settle on one pellet for each air gun anyway. The Air Ordnance belt fed mag is good too.

The bulk air system on the Caselman and the Air ordnance is smart for an air machine gun. The Evanix Max gets so few shots per fill that it's full auto capability is pointless. The part I don't like is that the bulk air is fixed to the gun. I would use a hose and carry the air tank on my back to make the gun light and maneuverable. This makes more sense than carrying an air cylinder and constantly filling a smaller one on the gun. Either way, it's awesome. It cut through thick wood better than a chainsaw in that YouTube clip.

I've nearly finished making my CF Cricket stock and a few other Cf parts. I'm fairly sure I'll have the lightest Cricket on earth. When I'm finished and I am sure the process is right, I am going to post a write-up to explain how it's done. I think I have a process that is easy enough for almost anyone to copy at home without the need for any specialist equipment or skills. It will work for almost any air gun stock too.

The part that has taken me the longest time to figure out is making the mold in a way that doesn't damage the original. None of the traditional methods I found online were suitable. The inletting took me a few weeks to figure out too.

I wouldn't mind being able to make a mold for the skeleton stock too as I prefer it slightly. I can't say I've ever really loved the look of any Cricket stock though. It's not the nicest looking air gun imo. I just love how it feels to shoot and it's accuracy. I specifically like it's balance and want to replicate this with my cf stock. 
 
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Agree that the Caselman looks a lot like the Air Ordnance. Perhaps AO will modify their design at some point (magazine/stock).

Wondered how the CF project was going. I'm still quite interested to see how everything turned out. Congratulations; what do you think the final weight will be on your Cricket?

Still no word on Kalibrgun's booth info at IWA about a semi, so something tells me there's more to come. Only a week from tomorrow. Snowpeak is also there so we'll see if they debut the P15.
 
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I don't know for certain on the weight savings yet. The test stocks I have been making have been too light to even register on my digital bathroom scales so I'll have to weigh it with the action when I'm done or buy more sensative scales... When I hold a carbon fiber stock in one hand and the original Cricket stock in the other, the difference feels huge but that's not hard because the original is very overspec'd for an air rifle stock. There is an inch or more of solid polymer in buttstock for no reason at all. I haven't finished bedding the inletting piece yet and that can make a difference though. S

There is also the weight savings I will get from replacing some of the larger metal components with CF versions. My CF barrel bands, weaver rails and scope rings are all very light but I haven't tested them yet. I am hoping to make it a 5lb platform when I'm done.

I have been looking at lightweight scopes too. That is the next largest weight saving after the stock. Most of the commonly used air rifle scopes weight between 17 and 24 ounces. Not much on their own but it all adds up. I have seen scopes that weigh as little as 8lb that would probably work for what I normally use my Cricket for. There is no point is asking for a lightweight stock and then weighing it down with a Sidewinder 30. I am curious to know if I could manage with a 3-9x50mm or a 2-7x32mm pistol scope to drop another pound. 



 
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"zebra"I don't know for certain on the weight savings yet. The test stocks I have been making have been too light to even register on my digital bathroom scales so I'll have to weigh it with the action when I'm done or buy more sensative scales... When I hold a carbon fiber stock in one hand and the original Cricket stock in the other, the difference feels huge but that's not hard because the original is very overspec'd for an air rifle stock. There is an inch or more of solid polymer in buttstock for no reason at all. I haven't finished bedding the inletting piece yet and that can make a difference though. S

There is also the weight savings I will get from replacing some of the larger metal components with CF versions. My CF barrel bands, weaver rails and scope rings are all very light but I haven't tested them yet. I am hoping to make it a 5lb platform when I'm done.

I have been looking at lightweight scopes too. That is the next largest weight saving after the stock. Most of the commonly used air rifle scopes weight between 17 and 24 ounces. Not much on their own but it all adds up. I have seen scopes that weigh as little as 8lb that would probably work for what I normally use my Cricket for. There is no point is asking for a lightweight stock and then weighing it down with a Sidewinder 30. I am curious to know if I could manage with a 3-9x50mm or a 2-7x32mm pistol scope to drop another pound. 



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Sounds great, Zebra; again, looking forward to seeing what you've developed. And 5 lbs sounds about right. Great work.

I'm with you on scopes. I've looked and looked for a lightweight variable to compliment a lightweight rifle. I have a couple of the Bug Busters; they're inexpensive and quite compact but still weigh 21 oz (the new SWAT model weighs even more). Leapers is a great company (excellent customer service) but their scopes, like everyone else's, are quite heavy. I think the Leupolds are lightweight but they're expensive and I'm not a big fan of their reticle selections (I have a 40 year old Leupold on the .308 lightweight sniper rifle I built that has stood up well). So far I haven't found a truly lightweight variable scope so will be interested to see what you come up with.

Again, great work.
 
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"Michael"Clearidge make a compact lightweight scope with better than average glass for the price. I think it's called the Ultra RM. Had one a while back & enjoyed it.
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I just checked out their site and it looks like a great option. The Ultra RM weighs 11.9 ounces which is 5 ounces less than most other equivalent spec scopes in that price range. The rrp is around $240 

Some of the pistol scopes come in at less than 8 ounces but just hearing that the Ultra RM has good glass makes me feel better about buying one. How come you sold it if you don't mind me asking?
 
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"rockymtbiker"Thanks for the recommendation, Michael; I'll check it out.

Of course, I'm still waiting for that lightweight PCP on which to mount it (my .30 cal Condor SS only weighs 5.5 lbs w/the carbon fiber tank but I'm wanting a really lightweight .22). I'm hoping the VL-12 magically materializes at Kalibrgun's booth this Thursday. :)
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The VL-12 is not made by Kalibrgun so I doubt it will be promoted at their booth. They didn't sound like they had much confidence in the guy that makes them and if it was me, I wouldn't put my brand name behind a product if I didn't have 100% confidence that the manufacturer would deliver. 

I didn't realize that the bug buster was so heavy. I have a few Leapers scopes and I find them all heavy. The glass is ok for the price range. I find mine to be good up to 50 yards. I am definitely ready for something better since upgrading my air rifle collection. I'm tempted by that Ultra RM.
 
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According to one post I've read Kalibrgun now owns RAR so my hope is that they will simply manufacture it themselves. One of the ironies in this whole matter is that much of the CDC work for the prototypes was done in the US and Japan. If Kalibrgun has decided to manufacture the VL-12 themselves then I would expect them to have one of the prototypes at their booth Thursday. Got a message from Petr last week saying that he has been told they will arrive by the end of the summer. Like so many things in the airgun industry these days, I consider it a possibility only until I actually see the product.

I agree with you regarding the Ultra RM (thanks again, Michael). If I had a 5 lb Cricket I think I would give it a try.

Another inexpensive option is the Tasco 2.5-10x AO. It only weighs 19.5 oz and I've had one on my Condor for several years and it's still performing well. But again, if your Cricket only weighs 5 lbs, I think it deserves the lightest scope possible.
 
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