A very interesting finding... Very!!

[Emu]

Very close to my house there is a ground field where I can shot up to 300 yards and being able to see exactly where I hit.

I have confirmed and re-confirmed that my Daystate Renegade HP NON regulated is much more consistent at over 190-230 yards than my Woverine HP HR, both with JSB 34 grain 25 Cal.

This is contraintuitive!!. The Woverine has a Huma Regulator inside and a big omega bottle and the Renegade just has a cilinder of 300 cc.

Variation in accuracy at long dstance is substancial among the two rifles !!!

I have been thinking for an explanation.... A lot!

The only thing that can make a lógical explanation is that at that distance is visible the difference in release of air made by a mechanical hit of the hammer to open the valve in the Woverine vs. the electronic release that the selenoid make shot after shot, with absolute precision.

I have seen the difference so many times that I can confirm that the difference is absolutely real !!

If someone has a better explanation, I will be happy to hear it.

 

[Emu]

This could mean that the future in firing mechanism will not use a hammer to open the firing valve.

HUBEN k1, LCS and Rattler might be the example to follow.

 

[Raider03]

1) Could be a difference in the barrel twist rates (lower) that favors the Renegade at those distances.
2) Could be the muzzle velocity is at the "sweet spot" for the JSB 34gr on the Renegade but not Wolverine.
3) Could be barrel harmonics/tuning, how do they compare at other ranges, 50yards, 100yards, 150yards? Is the Renegade always better?
Check each guns with a chronograph, try to find the twist rate specs , check other ranges.
May need to tune the Wolverine for the JSB 34grs pellets or find another pellet that works better for the Wolverine.
Many possible explanations exist. Run a full shot string on each gun, maybe, there is problem with the Wolverine?

Another thought, try using single shot tray or just load one at time if you don't have one. See how much difference that makes.

 

[Emu]

1) Could be a difference in the barrel twist rates (lower) that favors the Renegade at those distances.
2) Could be the muzzle velocity is at the "sweet spot" for the JSB 34gr on the Renegade but not Wolverine.
3) Could be barrel harmonics/tuning, how do they compare at other ranges, 50yards, 100yards, 150yards? Is the Renegade always better?
Check each guns with a chronograph, try to find the twist rate specs , check other ranges.
May need to tune the Wolverine for the JSB 34grs pellets or find another pellet that works better for the Wolverine.
Many possible explanations exist. Run a full shot string on each gun, maybe, there is problem with the Wolverine?

Another thought, try using single shot tray or just load one at time if you don't have one. See how much difference that makes.

What is interesting is that the difference is not in horizontal axel, but in the vertical one!!!!

I already got to the idea that the hammer is indeed a limitation in getting accuracy above 170 yards.

At 130 yards you do not notice a difference.

Please look a video of Álvaro López at his channel in Youtube called Suncity Arguns making a review of the Rattler. Consistency at 220 yards is not achivable with a hammer firing system.

The hammer firing system is a limitation for accuracy above 170 yards.

Yesterday I took three birds on that ground field at 190 yards and one at 220 yards with the Renegade. With any other of my hammer system rifles it would had been lucky.

But again, at 100 yards you will not notice a difference.

When Matt Duber from SouthAfrica made a review of the HUBEN K1, he said he was able to make shots at above 220 yards easy with that rifle. Is not just a matter of barrel, the accuracy and consistency at very long range depends of the amount of air release on each shot. An electrónico trigger and the system of the uben K1 and the Rattler and the LCS allow more consisten air liberation.

 

[Raider03]

What is interesting is that the difference is not in horizontal axel, but in the vertical one!!!!

I already got to the idea that the hammer is indeed a limitation in getting accuracy above 170 yards.

At 130 yards you do not notice a difference.

Please look a video of Álvaro López at his channel in Youtube called Suncity Arguns making a review of the Rattler. Consistency at 220 yards is not achivable with a hammer firing system.

The hammer firing system is a limitation for accuracy above 170 yards.

Yesterday I took three birds on that ground field at 190 yards and one at 220 yards with the Renegade. With any other of my hammer system rifles it would had been lucky.

But again, at 100 yards you will not notice a difference.

When Matt Duber from SouthAfrica made a review of the HUBEN K1, he said he was able to make shots at above 220 yards easy with that rifle. Is not just a matter of barrel, the accuracy and consistency at very long range depends of the amount of air release on each shot. An electrónico trigger and the system of the uben K1 and the Rattler and the LCS allow more consisten air liberation.

Hi,
I watched the most recent three videos for the Rattler on the SunCity Airguns channel.
In the first video Mr Lopez states (to paraphrase) " there are other 357 airguns shooting at 110 to 150 FPE, but no others that shooting 270 fpe in semi-auto". In the latest video starting at time index 3:59 he states the 1:20 barrel twist is best for Ojiva slug and the 1:26 barrel twist configuration is best for shooting pellets. If there is another video or a specific time index in one of the last three videos please provide that reference.
Either way in enjoyed the videos by Mr Lopez, but, i cant find anything in the videos that support you statement.

Rich Rehm has shown the FX Impact in 357 to be capable at 200yards with 81gr pellets.
Please, watch this video

I sure the FX Hybrid 357 slugs will shoot in the 357 FX impact. Also FX has an new barrel tension system that improves slug performance.
See the last link from Mat Dubbers channel.

The Huben K1 was shooting slugs, there is also a video Matt has where Huben can't hit the target because of barrel fouling and the firing system prohibits safely cleaning the gun in the field.
Please, watch this video

To summarize your logic
- Gun A shoot better then Gun B at longer ranges
- Gun A has a different valve system then Gun B
- Therefore, the valve system on Gun C is required to shot accurately at long range
No offense, but this logic doesn't seem correct.

I am sure the Renegade and the Wolverine shoot differently using Pellets at long range.
I am sure that slugs out perform pellets at long range and high power levels help, keep in mind the the Huben in 22 is only at 80FPE.
The FX impact Mat Dubber just developed shots 40grain Javalin slug at 1030fps for 95fpe uses a hammer and poppet valve system and it very accurate.
Please, watch this video

Variance in muzzle velocity will cause vertical distribution. That should be verified with a chrono. If that is the case then the Wolverine needs to be retuned/repaired.

So at this point, I still believe there is a much simpler reason for the difference between the Wolverine the Renegade.
Could also be a number of small problems in combination. I don't believe the Rattler hammerless valve system is the only answer to long range shooting, unless you want a semi-auto airgun. Then is may be the best, but, AEA semi-autos are also very capable.

Thanks for the links, the Rattle looks impressive. Also very impressive shooting at 200yards with any gun using pellets!

 

[Emu]

It would be helpful if other member could make their own test: Compare hammer firing air rifles to electronic triggers and Rattler, LCS, HUBEN system, with comparable pellets and at 190 yards and above.

Lets see what they find.

I want to clearly state that I do not have experience with slugs.

 

[Raider03]

Still find this stuff amazing,
Mat Dubber time 5:05 off hand 290yard first shot!

 

[Emu]

Still find this stuff amazing,
Mat Dubber time 5:05 off hand 290yard first shot!

Amazing !!!!

 

[Emu]

I will rephrse my previos post:

What is interesting in my shooting with hammer firing system rifles (Daystate, Brocock, Airgun Technology). 25 Cal rifles vs. The Renegade HP is that the difference is not in horizontal axel, but in the vertical one!!!!

Derived from what I have seen in my shooting, I think that the hammer firing system might be a limitation in getting accuracy above 170 yards.

At 130 yards you do not notice a difference.

Could the hammer firing system be a limitation for accuracy above 170 yards?

Could electronic trigger and the system of the Huben K1 and the Rattler and the LCS allow more consisten air liberation and better accuracy at long range?

As Shakespeare would say: That's the question!

 

[Dan25]

Still find this stuff amazing,
Mat Dubber time 5:05 off hand 290yard first shot!

These guys show just how far air guns can be taken. That’s great if you can afford that path. But for me they have crossed the mark where I break out my rim fires. This sport is different for everyone, but for me air guns have a place and it’s where rim fires are to dangerous and or illegal to use. For me it’s all about practically, using the best tool for the job. When you get to the point of spending $5K on an air gun to do what a $600- $1200 rim fire can do you have passed the point of practicality by a long shot. That said, if air guns only is your thing and taking it to the max with cost be damned I thank you. You will bring, and pay the cost, vast improvements to our sport.

 

[Glem.Chally]

These guys show just how far air guns can be taken. That’s great if you can afford that path. But for me they have crossed the mark where I break out my rim fires. This sport is different for everyone, but for me air guns have a place and it’s where rim fires are to dangerous and or illegal to use. For me it’s all about practically, using the best tool for the job. When you get to the point of spending $5K on an air gun to do what a $600- $1200 rim fire can do you have passed the point of practicality by a long shot. That said, if air guns only is your thing and taking it to the max with cost be damned I thank you. You will bring, and pay the cost, vast improvements to our sport.

I get your point but it's a challenge and achievement. The tour de France can be done much quicker and more practically by a motorcycle or car. Who's got all that time to waste on going at such a slow relative speed and time to waste on training? Can't base everything on practicality.

 

[Emu]

Still find this stuff amazing,
Mat Dubber time 5:05 off hand 290yard first shot!

I do respecto a lot Matt Dubber, Ted Holdover and all the icons of the videos of Airgun around the World.

The difference Among Ted and Matt and Álvaro López is that Álvaro make reviwes of rifles as they came it of the box.

The video in which Matt makes shots at 290 mts is clearly every thing but an out of the box rifle.

98% of us would not make so many changes in our air rifles.

My Comparing is with rifles (Daystate AirnRanger, Daystate Woverine, Vulcan 2, Brocock Bantam, all with hammer firing system, vs. DAYSTATE Renegade HP) it is to much coincidente that those super accurate ari rifles at 100 yards make so much difference with the Renegade at 190 yards.

There has to be a technical explanation.

 

[Raider03]

I do respecto a lot Matt Dubber, Ted Holdover and all the icons of the videos of Airgun around the World.

The difference Among Ted and Matt and Álvaro López is that Álvaro make reviwes of rifles as they came it of the box.

The video in which Matt makes shots at 290 mts is clearly every thing but an out of the box rifle.

98% of us would not make so many changes in our air rifles.

My Comparing is with rifles (Daystate AirnRanger, Daystate Woverine, Vulcan 2, Brocock Bantam, all with hammer firing system, vs. DAYSTATE Renegade HP) it is to much coincidente that those super accurate ari rifles at 100 yards make so much difference with the Renegade at 190 yards.

There has to be a technical explanation.

This specific video was in reference to the statement that "only a hammerless valve system" can deliver power and accuracy at 200+yards. This Impact uses a conventional hammer and valve design. I don't know how many people want this performance, but, it cost about the same as the Rattle. I expect Utah airgun to have this build in stock soon, I sure they can custom build one right now for anyone who is interested.
The coincidence has nothing to do with a hammerless valve system on the Rattler(IMHO)

 

[Emu]

I will buy a Rattler in few months and I will test the performance compared to my electronic trigger rifles and the rest with hammer firing system.

What does not make sense is that Airgun Technology rifles that are indeed super accurate at 100 yards, they have the same vertical axle variation as the Daystates (regulated and non regulated) without electronic trigger at 190 yards.

You can say that is not the hammer firing system. And you could be right.

But there has to be a technical explanation. And the only difference that is at seen is the electronic trigger.