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30-Yard Challenge
- Thread starter tcarlson777
- Start date
All are great cards here Ed.
Looks like the .22 18.1g squeaked out a slight edge in scoring over the .177 13.4g. I’m guessing the wind accounted for that a bit. You guys got a little snow, huh!
Your RTI guns are accurate and shooting well.
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All are great cards here Ed.
Looks like the .22 18.1g squeaked out a slight edge in scoring over the .177 13.4g. I’m guessing the wind accounted for that a bit. You guys got a little snow, huh!
Your RTI guns are accurate and shooting well.
Thanks Tommy, I love my two RTI Prophet V1s.
I have .177, .22, .25 and .30 barrels for them. My thought was to swap out the .177 and .22 barrels for the .25 and .30 - as I need a rifle for 100 yard bench at NAC.
However, the .22 is tuned so nice that I may just leave that as is this year. So I’ll try the other Prophet as .25 and .30 - compared to the FX Power Pup at .25 and .30 - and decide on a NAC setup.
-Ed
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Got out to the range the other day. Wind was up a bit, so I focused on 30Y targets with the RAW HM1000x .22. I shot four 30Y Masters cards and will submit the 194 card for the leaderboard.
Got myself a little Valentine's treat for the special occasion. New Garmin Xero C1 Chrony. This is miles beyond the FX Radar Pocket Chrony, and did not miss a single shot. I'm still learning ShotView, but I like the very portable nature of both the Chrony and the small table top Tripod. I placed it about 15" from the end of that long RAW moderator.
Shot the JSB 25.39 around 932-937 average FPS with great ES values.
Got myself a little Valentine's treat for the special occasion. New Garmin Xero C1 Chrony. This is miles beyond the FX Radar Pocket Chrony, and did not miss a single shot. I'm still learning ShotView, but I like the very portable nature of both the Chrony and the small table top Tripod. I placed it about 15" from the end of that long RAW moderator.
Shot the JSB 25.39 around 932-937 average FPS with great ES values.
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Great shooting Ed. Especially in your weather. We have cool mornings but may get to 70 today. So no excuses for me.
I haven't shot any really good targets but I've shot enough to know I need some more JSB MKIIs 34 grain. 4 FX targets and the best ones were 188s. Three JSB targets and the worst one is a 190. I also think I proved to myself that I shouldn't shoot these targets with my SPA magazines. Carm single pellet loader seems to be worth several points. I tried weight sorting pellets and that doesn't seem to have helped. Probably need to buy a pellet gage in 25 caliber. Might try head size sorting for the 177 with the gage I have first, however.
I haven't shot any really good targets but I've shot enough to know I need some more JSB MKIIs 34 grain. 4 FX targets and the best ones were 188s. Three JSB targets and the worst one is a 190. I also think I proved to myself that I shouldn't shoot these targets with my SPA magazines. Carm single pellet loader seems to be worth several points. I tried weight sorting pellets and that doesn't seem to have helped. Probably need to buy a pellet gage in 25 caliber. Might try head size sorting for the 177 with the gage I have first, however.
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Can’t let snow or wind or cold keep us 30-Yard Challenge shooters from shooting…
… get some lead downrange Gentlemen!!
-Ed
… get some lead downrange Gentlemen!!
-Ed
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Hi Guys,
Did manage to shoot one 40 yd card today - in a 15-mph gusty breeze. The vertical spread on the shots was like 10mm CTC (<1 MOA), but the horizontal spread was wild! Gave up trying to read the gusts and just shot. This (below) is what you get! That's all 24 shots. I think it was a 174-7x.
Cheers,
Greg
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Great vertical spread Greg. I assume that is .22 FX Crown at 40 yards?
On a less windy day, with a vertical that tight, you could shoot 198+ with that rifle at 40.
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Yep, that the .22 Crown with the 18.1 gr FX pellets. The interesting thing is that with all that wind (mainly from my 4 o'clock but swirling around my house) there wasn't any spiraling. With the .177 shooting the 13.4's I get off and on spirals at 40 yds with a 3-5 mph quartering wind. I was also pretty consistently hitting my 72 yd spinner (2 inch) with a hold of almost 2 MOA right. I think the misses were spirals.
Cheers,
Greg
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Well Stan, you need to kind of anal and retired to spend the time to do that. These shots are part of an experiment I am doing to see if sorting pellets helps. I measure the head size and weight of each pellet, then I shoot it and record the velocity and POI of each pellet. To do that I measure the distance from the target center to my best guess for the POI center (horizontal and vertical) +/- .25mm. Then plot in Excel. The pic in my message is just the graph from Excel saves as a .png file.
I would be happy to send you the spreadsheet I use to do this if you want. I am getting near the end of my experiment and will share my results. It is looking like it makes no difference to spend the time sorting.
Cheers,
Greg
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ok thanks . I am sort of anal and i am retired so i qualify ! but i came to the same conclusion , not worth the time sorting . Now i need to qualify this statement . when i shoot a competition target i weigh size and roll test to get the same pellets for that target . i have found that when sorting one ends up with several piles of like pellets . in my finding it does not matter if i shoot from pile A or pile B , C , as long as all shot from the same pile .
IT is a confidence thing . , Next test is just doing the roll test , no weighing or head sizing .
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I have seen Olympic videos of targets made in real time looking the same as your print . probably more than i would want to spend haha
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Tuning…
To me, “tuning” a regulated air rifle means finding the optimal balance between regulator pressure and hammer spring pre-load.
A while back in our TYC thread (now up to 104+ pages !), our TYC data guru Greg (NAProf) stated that he believed accuracy was more impacted by the “tune” of the rifle rather than the velocity the rifle was shooting the pellet. I understood this to mean when the rifle is in a state of balanced harmony, that is also when its most accurate.
I’ve been putting Greg’s theory to the test with my FX Power Pup. It started life as a .25 with 500mm barrel from the factory – with regulator around 140bar.
With a 500mm .22 barrel, I tuned the rifle until it was shooting very accurately. Eventually the tune had the regulator pressure at about 115-120bar (gauge is not detailed). The tune was super-efficient, shot count was way up and the rifle became very quiet. It was almost “silent” despite slinging FX 18.13g at 895-905 fps.
With this tune I tested Greg’s theory – by swapping different barrels onto the Power Pup – and changing nothing else (no reg adjustments or hammer spring adjustments).
Results with this 117bar regulator tune:
500mm .22 barrel: I shot a 200 16X 30-Challenge on 1/12/24 – FX 18.13g at 900fps
600mm .22 barrel: I shot a 198 10X 30-Masters on 2/3/24 – FX 18.13g at 955-963fps (!) – in the wind.
600mm .25 barrel: Today I shot a 198 10X 30-Masters on my first card with .25 barrel installed – FX 25.4g at 870fps (also shot 189 5x 40-Masters on next card after that - I lost all feeling in my fingers towards end of that card)
I did turn the hammer spring adjuster up 2-clicks for the .25 barrel – velocity increased from 855 to 875 fps with the 2 clicks. However, the paper plate shows that the original hammer spring setting also grouped extremely well – note that 5-shot groups with both velocity settings were sub ½” at 30 yards (see paper plate photo)!
So, Greg’s theory that the tune (balance) is more important than velocity when working to find a rifle’s best accuracy seems to prove out by me & the Power Pup.
Tuned reg and hammer spring until I had a great shooting .22 500mm, stuck on a 600mm .22 barrel and it continued to shoot great – even at very high velocity. Then stuck a 600mm .25 cal barrel on it and it still shoots insanely tiny groups and great scores – from the very first card – in the freezing cold and wind, lol.
Including some photos of my shooting conditions when I shot these groups and the 198 30-Masters card today - note ice on shooting table top. Biggest challenge is not killing myself slipping on the wet ice building up by the back door leading out to my “range”, lol.
So, what do you guys think? Is it the “tune” or is it the velocity that dictates best accuracy for a pellet?
-Ed
To me, “tuning” a regulated air rifle means finding the optimal balance between regulator pressure and hammer spring pre-load.
A while back in our TYC thread (now up to 104+ pages !), our TYC data guru Greg (NAProf) stated that he believed accuracy was more impacted by the “tune” of the rifle rather than the velocity the rifle was shooting the pellet. I understood this to mean when the rifle is in a state of balanced harmony, that is also when its most accurate.
I’ve been putting Greg’s theory to the test with my FX Power Pup. It started life as a .25 with 500mm barrel from the factory – with regulator around 140bar.
With a 500mm .22 barrel, I tuned the rifle until it was shooting very accurately. Eventually the tune had the regulator pressure at about 115-120bar (gauge is not detailed). The tune was super-efficient, shot count was way up and the rifle became very quiet. It was almost “silent” despite slinging FX 18.13g at 895-905 fps.
With this tune I tested Greg’s theory – by swapping different barrels onto the Power Pup – and changing nothing else (no reg adjustments or hammer spring adjustments).
Results with this 117bar regulator tune:
500mm .22 barrel: I shot a 200 16X 30-Challenge on 1/12/24 – FX 18.13g at 900fps
600mm .22 barrel: I shot a 198 10X 30-Masters on 2/3/24 – FX 18.13g at 955-963fps (!) – in the wind.
600mm .25 barrel: Today I shot a 198 10X 30-Masters on my first card with .25 barrel installed – FX 25.4g at 870fps (also shot 189 5x 40-Masters on next card after that - I lost all feeling in my fingers towards end of that card)
I did turn the hammer spring adjuster up 2-clicks for the .25 barrel – velocity increased from 855 to 875 fps with the 2 clicks. However, the paper plate shows that the original hammer spring setting also grouped extremely well – note that 5-shot groups with both velocity settings were sub ½” at 30 yards (see paper plate photo)!
So, Greg’s theory that the tune (balance) is more important than velocity when working to find a rifle’s best accuracy seems to prove out by me & the Power Pup.
Tuned reg and hammer spring until I had a great shooting .22 500mm, stuck on a 600mm .22 barrel and it continued to shoot great – even at very high velocity. Then stuck a 600mm .25 cal barrel on it and it still shoots insanely tiny groups and great scores – from the very first card – in the freezing cold and wind, lol.
Including some photos of my shooting conditions when I shot these groups and the 198 30-Masters card today - note ice on shooting table top. Biggest challenge is not killing myself slipping on the wet ice building up by the back door leading out to my “range”, lol.
So, what do you guys think? Is it the “tune” or is it the velocity that dictates best accuracy for a pellet?
-Ed
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One vote for "the tune". Thanks for giving me credit for this idea, but I was really just passing on info I had gathered from lots of more experienced airgunners (Steve of AEAC, Geof of Sub12Airgunners, PJ of Wisconsin Airgunners, and a bunch more). I am working on trying to develop a way to relate the tuning adjustments to valve opening and dwell and then to pellet muzzle velocity (at least for my Crowns). Still a way to go - looking at things like the number of changes in direction for the air moving from the valve to the pellet, transfer port restrictions, and probe size and type). Winter nights are great for this kind of stuff.
Cheers,
Greg
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Ed - you asked a good question on having an optimum balanced tune vs. velocity changes, as to which results in achieving best accuracy for a given pellet. It might be a bit of both and some additional factors as well.
There are many who subscribe to tuning their rifles to 95-97% of maximum velocity for a certain regulator pressure, that hopefully results in the best accuracy for that particular tune.
I tried this with my HW100 .22 at a set reg pressure and the math dictated 95-97% was at 850 FPS for the 18.1g. While it shot tight groups at 25-40 yards, I also tried / adjusted HST only for different velocities down to 790 FPS with very comparable accuracy to the well balanced 850 FPS tune? This puzzled me because I was expecting that the balanced tune would be best accuracy-wise. Still others will adjust HST for their rifles up/ down in velocity and try and assess tightest groups based on various velocity changes. In my particular example, I really don’t know the answer. I have had a couple of barrels swapped out ( different rifle, it was my Daystate Safari .25 ART barrel) which also resulted in better accuracy as the original Daystate barrel was faulty.
While both approaches are very important to achieving optimal accuracy, I actually think there are a variety of ingredients needed: Good quality pellets, great (clean) barrel, excellent regulator with reliable and consistent SD and ES values, great trigger; just to illustrate a few.
I realize your question was very specific to tune vs. velocity changes, but I wish I had a dollar for all the things I don’t know about this hobby.
There are many who subscribe to tuning their rifles to 95-97% of maximum velocity for a certain regulator pressure, that hopefully results in the best accuracy for that particular tune.
I tried this with my HW100 .22 at a set reg pressure and the math dictated 95-97% was at 850 FPS for the 18.1g. While it shot tight groups at 25-40 yards, I also tried / adjusted HST only for different velocities down to 790 FPS with very comparable accuracy to the well balanced 850 FPS tune? This puzzled me because I was expecting that the balanced tune would be best accuracy-wise. Still others will adjust HST for their rifles up/ down in velocity and try and assess tightest groups based on various velocity changes. In my particular example, I really don’t know the answer. I have had a couple of barrels swapped out ( different rifle, it was my Daystate Safari .25 ART barrel) which also resulted in better accuracy as the original Daystate barrel was faulty.
While both approaches are very important to achieving optimal accuracy, I actually think there are a variety of ingredients needed: Good quality pellets, great (clean) barrel, excellent regulator with reliable and consistent SD and ES values, great trigger; just to illustrate a few.
I realize your question was very specific to tune vs. velocity changes, but I wish I had a dollar for all the things I don’t know about this hobby.
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