2nd Reg Air Slow/Low PSI

[EmptyTin_Tim]

Hey guys,

I'm looking for opinions on what could be wrong with my gun.

Here's the setup:
Avenger .22
AE Swede dual reg adapter
Chinese 4.5k in, 3k out (was reading 2.8k, good)
350 CC alum bottle
Doux power plenum

Okay so my issue is, after I followed Reidy's advice on how to unscrew the pressurized bottle safely to adjust the stock reg down and keep my pressure in the bottle, now my 2nd reg isn't letting air in/ it lets it in real slow, like overnight gets to 2k. But 4-6 shots drain the block to zero.

He said to unscrew the bottle a turn to make the pin close off the reg cutoff valve then shoot til the block is empty. Then remove the bottle all the way. It worked, no problem (cause that's how paintballers do it). But then ithe block wouldn't fill. I can hear the air hiss into the block when I put the bottle back on, and the stock manometer for air and reg both read the same low pressure so some is getting through. Bottle has 4k psi in it.

Could I have twisted the reg cap (area w/flat spots for wrench) too much or something??

Any other ideas?

 

[nervoustrig]

The problem is not the 2nd regulator, because when you get to this point...

the stock manometer for air and reg both read the same low pressure

...both gauges reading the same means something is preventing air from getting from the bottle to the gun.

When you screw the bottle into the block and you hear air hiss into the block, is that happening just as the threads bottom out? My best guess is the pin is not pushing the check valve sufficiently, and air is just gently weeping into the gun.

If the bottle is going to live on the gun (not planning on taking it on and off), you have no need for the check valve. Degas the bottle, remove the bonnet, remove the check valve (spring-loaded pin). Reassemble and mount the bottle back to the gun and air it up.

 

[EmptyTin_Tim]

Hey nervoustrig, thanks so much for replying. I wanted to wait a few days to see if it kept doing it, and it seems like the air is still slow to make it through, it'll be full pressure then I'll take 5-6 shots and it'll say it's at 1200 psi... and then sit there for a while til it refills.

Yes it hissed when it bottomed out. So I believe you are correct in thinking the valve isn't opening enough. The reason why I want to make the bottle removable is I am hand pumping and it was like 520 pumps to 4k from no pressure.

Are there any other ideas on how to go about making the pin open more and still having this bottle removable so I don't have to pump all that again (besides get a compressor lol)?

I was wondering if the resistance of 2800 psi -pressure after 2nd (paintball) reg- pushing back on the pin makes it so I can't screw in the bottle all the way like I could when I first assembled it all together at zero psi. I did use a crescent wrench on the flat spots of the reg to tighten it down this time but still didn't open it enough.

I did notice the top part of the reg (w/flat spots) turned a little by itself when I screwed it down. Is that another problem, or should it be ignored?

I've never disassembled a paintball reg before but am willing to give it a go if removing the pin is all I've got left as a choice to keep my bottle. It'd be a bummer though cause I like this concept for being able to adjust the stock reg after unscrewing the bottle and keeping my psi in there.

Again, thanks so much for your reply, you're definitely the master teaching a PCP novice here.

 

[nervoustrig]

Are there any other ideas on how to go about making the pin open more and still having this bottle removable so I don't have to pump all that again (besides get a compressor lol)?

Extend the pin in the tank block so it reaches out further to fully depress the check valve. Center drill it and insert a cutoff piece from a drill bit. A little threadlocker will keep it there.

Here's an example of where I did the same thing to extend a bolt probe. Drilled by hand, no lathe at the time.

I was wondering if the resistance of 2800 psi -pressure after 2nd (paintball) reg- pushing back on the pin makes it so I can't screw in the bottle all the way

No, not likely at all.

I did notice the top part of the reg (w/flat spots) turned a little by itself when I screwed it down. Is that another problem, or should it be ignored?

Pretty sure you are describing the bonnet. Example from a Ninja paintball regulator

The bonnet threads down onto the regulator body, and typically is locked in place by driving in a couple of grub screws. Sounds like your grub screws either weren't fully tightened or you applied sufficient torque to overcome them and gouge the reg body.

I've never disassembled a paintball reg before but am willing to give it a go if removing the pin is all I've got left as a choice to keep my bottle.

It's pretty easy if you do decide to remove the check valve. See the parts labeled "ball valve..." in the diagram above. Some regs have a ball, others have a pin.

Best wishes for a successful resolution!

 

[EmptyTin_Tim]

I've got to say thank you once again, Nervoustrig!

Here are my findings:

You are correct! The pin was the problem. When I degassed using the OEM degas screw, it was really slow to drop PSI. It even go to a point where I decided to remove the entire cap not just the screw, and even then it was barely letting air out. Odd thing was I tilted/shook the gun and then it started to let more out.... Not sure why that would be. Then the air quit completely at 800 psi so I unscrewed the bottle and manually pushed down the pin to make it release the air.

Yes, the bonnet is what I was referring to, thanks for the vocabulary and photos! I did overcome the torque trying to get the air to come out, so the body has some marks underneath from the set screws, but once I backed those out I was able to unscrew the bonnet and get to work.

If you take a look at the 1st photo, I have the pin with the seal raised up. It was pushed down into the crimped area under it, but half of it was sticking up. More space used up than needed is what I thought, so I pulled that seal and made a new one using yellow polyurethane tubing and cut it off flush with the crimped part. See photo #2 for the internals of the paintball reg and the pin on top. That made the valve open easier. Too easy at low (sub 500 psi) pressure, but I kept pumping and it sealed.

Then I put the gun back together and pumped it up to 1,000 psi. Then degassed using the screw, and it let out all of the air this time!

While I had it degassed I decided to see why my reg was creeping, and I noticed that the bottle was loose after it was depressurized. So I'm wondering if it does in fact have enough pressure to hold back the pin from being compressed all the way. I hand tightened the bottle to the AE Swede adapter and haven't removed it since.

I took a before and after photo of my Delrin bit at the end of the reg so you can see what happened when I smoothed it out using 3000 grit paper on glass. After I assembled and aired up my gun, I have less creep, but it is still there (about 300 psi). Not sure what else could be causing that, but I won't worry yet as I have less than a tin of pellets through the gun yet.

I did some testing and with JSB Hades 15.89 gr, at 1600ish reg and 1.5 HS, I got an average of 884.86 with a Std Dev of 7.45 on a shot string of 13. Not bad seeing as I wouldn't call the gun broken in yet.

Again, I want to thank you for your suggestion about the pin being too short! I did put the reg pin in my drill and used 2500 grit paper to smooth it out, but other than that I decided I'd rather try something less permanent than drilling out the pin and using a 1/8 bit shank first. Glad it worked for your bolt, though!

 

[EmptyTin_Tim]

If the bottle is going to live on the gun (not planning on taking it on and off), you have no need for the check valve. Degas the bottle, remove the bonnet, remove the check valve (spring-loaded pin). Reassemble and mount the bottle back to the gun and air it up.

I've got an update with more questions for you. I decided that I'm probably not going to be lowering my stock regulator set point enought to warrant needing the ability to take off the bottle... Well that and the AE Swede adapter is a cylinder with no cuts in it to put a wrench so it kept turning with the reg/bottle when I went to remove it once. Kinda scary with 4k psi in there knowing the valve was still open on the bottle reg.

So I degassed and got it apart and removed the pin like you suggested.

Now my question relates to slow plenum fill. I got my stock reg turned to 2k psi with 1.5 HS, Avenger shooting JSB 18.13 at 880 ish. Besides my 2nd reg being at 2.8k so there's a small differential, I'm assuming because I have the power plenum that this might be like Matt Dubber talks about the FX guns filling slowly due to it "sipping" air out of the plenum so the reg doesn't register a refill so it takes a bit for it to get back to 2k. After a shot, it mostly registered at 1.6 or 1.8k then very slowly got to 2k, like if I filled up a magazine in the meantime. I tried shooting a bunch of shots quickly to trip it, and it did at 1.4k or so. Could hear it fill to 2k. But then it immediately started getting stuck/being slow to refill again.

So there are 2 parts to my question. One: On the AE Swede adapter, there is the pin depressor sticking out that pushes in the reg valve pin (if I still had mine ) and then next to it is a tiny hole for the air to get through from the bottle. Would it help my reg out if I drilled this hole bigger? It's like a paper clip diameter. What if since I don't need my pin depressor anymore I drilled it all out so it is simply a thread size adapter? See the adapter from aeswede.com (on the left , see that hole in the 4 o'clock position?)

2nd question is how do I go about sanding/lubricating/polishing the washers in my stock Avenger reg? I've heard that could help the plenum refill faster. I've already sanded the delrin flat, and replaced the one o ring on the piston that sticks out with a Captain O Ring one w/divers grease and the combo of those helped my reg creep go down to only 200 psi overnight.

Thanks in advance!

 

[nervoustrig]

Enlarging the hole will make no meaningful difference to the recovery time. Why is that? Well, for a brief moment right after the trigger is pulled, when the pressure drop is greatest, the regulator's seat will be relatively wide open to replenish the plenum. So at that time the flow rate is highest, meaning the size of the port could at least potentially represent a restriction. However this first portion of the recovery cycle is very brief...a fraction of a second, maybe a full second. Then as the pressure rises toward the setpoint, the seat is only barely open and the flow rate becomes very small. That's where most of the time is.

Regarding the Belleville washers, the burrs present from punching them out are ordinarily on the concave side. So the burr on the outer rim can be removed by simply wet sanding against a flat surface. For example, lay the sandpaper on a granite countertop or a piece of glass from a picture frame, then rub the washer against it, cupped side down. As soon as you see a narrow polished ring appear around the full perimeter, you can stop.

To remove the burr on the ID, a fine conical (or round) grinding stone or diamond bit works nicely. As in the previous step, as soon as you see a micro-bevel begin to develop, you know the burr is gone.

There is no need to polish the entire faces. For lubrication, any decent metal lubricant is fine. The Bellevilles are not exposed to high pressure air, meaning you don't have to avoid petroleum products except to the extent that you don't want to go overboard and get a lot past the O-rings on either side.

 

[EmptyTin_Tim]

Thank you for another quality reply! It took me longer to use your advice and reply because I ended up having to also find and fix the reason for my pump's hard down stroke and the handle raising up when I let go. O ring on the check valve was chewed a bit. It's supposed to be a 4 stage pump so I knew I had something wrong when it was hard to pump even at 1,500psi. Lol


I read your points on the time frame of when things are most open during the shot cycle, and decided that because I'm using 2 regulators that it may help me out to open up the hole even if your advice says the benefits will be miniscule since refill should be quick.


I didn't measure the hole before, but it was smaller than 1/16", just seemed too small to leave as is. I used that size as a step to get the final size of 5/64" since there is that reg pin depressor in the center so I couldn't go bigger and keep the pin. It's aluminum so enlarging the hole was an easy procedure. Photo is enlarged hole.

I really appreciate you breaking down how to get the Belleville washers polished for me here! I went ahead and did both of my regulators. The paintball one had washers that looked like they skipped any QC at the factory… they were very thick and it took a bit to get any sort of bevel on them. Maybe because this one is supposed to be set to 3k psi, but I kept sanding and now it seems to be set to roughly 2.6k psi where before it was 2.8k. Not a problem for me as I'll probably set the other reg at 2k. Also sanded flat the delrin on the end while I had it out. Photo is after I was done. OD didn't look great but they stacked better per your advice on how to sand. New o ring on piston since I broke the old one taking it off to get the washers off.

The stock Avenger regulator was a whole different story… it was a huge pain to get open. I definitely need better quality snap ring pliers than what I had. It didn't help that the factory assembler put a whole tube of loctite in mine and the holes stripped out. I even tried using a lighter to get some heat on the reg body but even with it very warm to the touch I couldn't open it. Then I decided to use a small file to make some flat spots (12:30 & 6:30 in photo) so I could use a wrench. It opened! Chewed up brass:

These washers were much nicer and seemed to have a coating which made it easy for me to figure out when I was done putting a bevel on. I used the diver silicone grease on the o rings while I had it apart, and I used some Umarex air chamber oil on the shaft (after polishing that with 3k grit paper) because I didn't have anything else that I knew was okay for the o rings if it got on them. Polished washers:

I had to write down what order and orientation the washers went in. This was half way through. You can see the unpolished washers and my arrow markings showing if convex/concave is up towards the big side. Down arrow is concave up.

The results so far are good. I can hear the gun breathing and refilling! I haven't shot it at a target yet but I'd guess with it being more stable I'd see my groups tighten up. I have about 500 rounds through my Avenger so I know things are getting settled in naturally, but working on these regs should help speed it up and make it more stable moving forward.


Thank you so much for the advice, it is much appreciated!!