.25 & .30 the science and cost

[Floris]

Hey all,



Thanks for reading this and maybe help me on my way.

.25 & .30 the science and cost



Im an FX Impact shooter from Europe and shoot .22 18gr mostly. Now im looking at a higher caliber to counter wind and be accurate at 100M paper target shooting.

Ive been looking at this from a scientific and cost perspective. Also ive been reading on the forums and looking at the calibers are being shot at competitions like EBR. Lastly I look at shot count, don’t want to fill my bottle every.



*prices in euros and at my local stores



Science:

I looked at some BC of a few popular set of pellets and 0.25 33gr seems to be the best out of my selection. Yes the 30 50gr is slightly higher, but this will take a lot more air and is not cost effective (for me).

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/what-is-ballistic-coefficient/



Speed:

Pellets seem to be best around 880 ft/s but I see a trend of more and more people who want to shoot them as fast as they can sometimes over 1000ft/s. Also if you look at BC and how speed affects it. The BC of a pellet is goes down over speeds around 850 ft/s. So shooting slower can tighten up your group when affected by wind and can drift less (left and right).



Cost:

The price of an individual pellet in .25 is almost half the price of a .30. For the same price of a .30 pellet I can shoot a .22 slug that has better BC and a much farther reach.



Forums:

When I read on some different forums I feel that if you go over .22 most folks shoot .30. This might be due to my selection of topics.



Completions:

I looked at the last EBR results and most lists are led by .30 caliber.



Air consumption:

Clearly the .25 will beat the .30 if you want to shoot a pellet with a similar BC. I have not read up on the comparison of .22 slugs compared to .25&.30 pellets.





If I look at all of the above:

If I want to shoot 100 and over or in high winds pick a .22 slug and shoot at 900-1000 ft/s

If you want to shoot 100 in low wind and back stop might be an issue pick a .25 33gr pellet shoot at 880 ft/s



Question: Why do folks want to shoot .30 even when the science is telling us that .25 33gr pellets are better (unless you shoot .30 50gr), cheaper and more air efficient? And why are so many competition shooters at EBR shooting .30.



Am i confused, or is there something I am missing?

 

[DanielL]

I think it comes down to what shoots the best under wind conditions. All things being equal the larger caliber will always have the advantage. The key is the all things being equal part. In your comparison you are using better .20 and .25 pellets vs. what is available for .30.

 

[Raden1942]

Some guns don't shoot slugs well?, I don't really know the answer to the question as I don't do ebr. I have wondered the same thing but if 22 slug has a better bc wouldn't a 25 have even more so? Are you allowed to use 25 or 30 cal slugs at ebr? Also I've always heard the pellet skirt makes for very accurate shots maybe more accurate than slugs and finnaly most guns are built for diabolo pellets and shooters don't just pick the bullet science tells them is best. Each gun has its favorite pellet or pellets it shoots best. That's what I came up with when I asked a similar question. 

 

[broekzwans]

What you're missing is an actual user perspective and experiences

With the .30 JSB pellets I can use more than 90% of my pellets after weighing (within +- 1%) for competition, with the .25 34 grains I could barely make it to 50% of the pellets... So this equalizes the price already

The BC values you're stating are not quite what I've seen, the 0.046 is pretty optimistic for the 34 grains and the 0.037 might be a bit low for the .30 pellets. BCs I got were pretty much on par and both above 0.04, the .30 even got slightly above the 34 grains in my case.

The .30 calibers are way easier to tune than the .25 34 grains are and therefore small groups were way easier to achieve. .25 will be able to do the same thing, but I was done bothering with all the sorting of pellets to get max results while with the .30 I only look at bended skirts during training and aside from maybe 5 fliers during a 3 hour session I barely notice a difference in weight and sizing.

This added into the comparison, what would you choose now? 

 

[brink]

I think that you should look at the JSB .22 JUMBO MONSTERS 1,645 g as that is what actually won the last two years.

 

[PiterM]

Hmmm... interesting. For me reason was easy... to go through all paperwork required for a high power airguns in my homeland I just wanted really big bore, something more substantial than .25. On paper the difference in diameter is not big, but when you place .30 cal pellet next to .25, well, no comparison. And I can tell you that I simply enjoy the process of placing that chunk of lead into breech of my R5 Matador, and than sending it at more than 100 Joule of energy. I just enjoy it, it's the only reason. And 15mm c-t-c at 100m is good enough for me

 

[Arzrover]

I'm with Brink.

The 22 cal 25.4 grain is meant to shoot 980ish and has similar bc to the 25 cal 33 gn. In my testing here at home, the bc's I've come up with are similar to what you have in your chart, so your analysis seems valid except for the exclusion of the 25.4s. There have been 3 standout pellets... 177 - 16.1s ,... 22 - 25.4s,... 25 -33.4s, and 30 - 50.1s. The 177 and 22 cals seem meant to go fast. The 25 and 30 cals just seem to do well in the wind IF the rifle likes them. As was mentioned above , though , the best consistency of weight and size that I've personally tested was the 50.1 gn 30 cals. Maybe they are just easier to make... not sure. For my own shooting, I can use any and have barrels for my Red Wolf that will do justice to any of the choices but find the best economy and performance combo w the 22 - 25.4s.

A very big factor is what your rifle likes though and FX generally are better in the larger cals. Maybe it's because Fx is pushing the 30, but it didn't seem like many 25s were at EBR this year. Not sure about RMAC. I do have a Crown in 25 and it's very good but do not have any other FXs for comparison.

Bob

 

[Exitpupil]

My observation as a non long range BR competitor: If you are in a timed windy 100 yd competition, averaging 4 sighter shots per every record shot, being able to see the pellet hole in a shot up sighter bull then quickly swing to a record bull and see which bulls have already been shot without raising your head off the stock is an advantage for the larger calibers. 

 

[Raden1942]

This is why I love agn. You can save alot of money and effort by learning from people that have already screamed all the profanities and shed all the tears. I'm going to save this thread for when I do ebr. I will also chime in and say that it looks like you need an excuse to shoot 30 cal. I'll give it to you. You deserve to shoot watermelons and pumpkins and watch them fly all over the yard. Plus if you ever shoot a bird that's been eating out of your garden you can literally hear the satisfying pop of victory only 30 cal can provide. If you dont want to do it for yourself please think of your children. 

 

[Emu]

Is always cheaper to hit once with an expensive pellet that miss three times with a cheaper one. 

When hunting and when you have to shoot to an expensive game, the wind is not at your disposition and orders. You have to have on hand what provides you with the best chances to make a good placed shot and with enough power to humanely dispatch your animal. The 30 Cal, for me, is the one that more confidence grant for lesser than deer size game. For deer size game I feel much more confident with 357 Cal, notwithstanding is less accurate, the shot should be closer and that the pellet is more expensive.

For hunting birds, doves and ducks I would not recommend using the 30 Cal... A 30 and above Cal pellet should not be flying without precisely know where the pellet will stop. Other way you can cause serious damage.

When hunting, having in your hand a 30 Cal with 80 foot pounds, provides you with the confidence that a good placed shot will make the work at must of the game that could show up from rabbit to deer, in an extreme.

I have taken a coyote and jabalina with 22 (Evanix Rainstorm and AR6 both with barracuda) and with 25 (Evanix Windy City with barracuda), but with the 30 you go to the sure. 

 

[Centercut]

I agree with Bob @arzrover and wanted to add something I've observed with .30 caliber pellets. 

When I was preparing for EBR, I really wanted to shoot the 50.1 vice the 44.75 JSB, since the difference in BC in noticeable - probably 0.050 to 0.042, or at least that's what I get for BC using the drop method at 110 yards. Also, I shot many groups with both, first at 50 yards, then at 100 or more yards. And the difference in accuracy is minimal in my .30 FX Bobcat Mk2 (both shoot better than MOA at 100 yards). The wind drift was measurably less with the 50.1, not huge, but if the 44.75 was drifting about 2 inches, the 50.1 would drift about 1/2 inch less. 

So why did I successfully shoot the 44.75 at EBR you may ask? And the answer is CONSISTENCY. For me, I could better predict the drift with the 44.75 than with the 50.1. If I was shooting, and shot a sighter or two, then went up to the target, I had more confidence that the 44.75 would go where I wanted. With the 50.1, I had more times that doing the same scenario resulted in a pellet being off a half inch or so from what I thought would happen. And as anyone that shoots competition knows, without confidence in your equipment and ammo, you have nothing...

I determined this with ME shooting MY GUN, and am not saying that would be true for everyone. I determined this shooting thousands of rounds in practice in varying conditions. I probably shot at least 4000 rounds in .30 caliber this past Summer preparing for EBR. Funny thing is, I'm still not 100% convinced the 44.75 is better for me than the 50.1, so I'm going to do some more testing in preparation for RMAC. That $20K check has my name all over it...

 

[JungleShooter]

Talking about the cost....

The prices that your local dealers are selling pellets to you is overpriced. I'm sorry they have taken advantage of you.

An alternative that I found while I was home in Germany:



Olga Kimla sells JSB and H&N – both pellets and slugs.
https://www.jsb-diabolos.de

She ships all over Europe, and reasonably priced.

For comparison: OP ≠ Olga Kimla
JSB .22cal | 18gr | 13.95€ ≠ 10.20€
JSB .25cal | 25gr | 12.95€ ≠ 10.40€
JSB .25cal | 33gr | 12.95€ ≠ 10.40€
JSB .30cal | 44gr | 11.40€ ≠ 8.90€


You get another 0.20 to 0.40€ discount when you buy 10 or 50 cans.



Now this way your .30 caliber shooting won’t get as expensive as have calculated.
There.
I gave you another excuse to buy the 30cal...!

Matthias

 

[Dairyboy]

I would have to agree with others. Most consistent pellets I've shot are JSB .30 pellets. While I don't shoot competition at all mainly pest I won't even shoot .30 pellets anymore just going with NSAs. Even the lighter 43.8gr and 47.2gr slugs have BC of 0.105-0.11 which is definitely better than the .22s that work well in my gun. And over double the .30 pellets. Cost between the slugs and pellets are minimal for those.

 

[Floris]

Hey,

so i guess there are a few things

1) .30 cal seems to perform consistently and results are more predicable

2) appartenly JSB's are expensive in my country

3) .30 pellets have less defects then smaler caliber

4) .22 25gr can perform really well. I tried a tin, but the groups were horrible, might be that i was under powering them. I forgot my chrony so i could not measure the speed. I shot them at the same setting that sends my .22 18gr at 920 ft/s. Yesterday I have re tuned my impact so that i can send .22 18gr at 900 at power setting 1, this gives me some room to play at the top end. At max it shoots .22 18gr at 1030 ft/s. So ill give the .25 another try.