22. vs 25. for long range accuracy

[WyoAirguns]

In Matts new videos which i’m sure many of you saw, towards the beginning he briefly explains why he thinks the 22. is the best long range caliber out of all the other small bore calibers such as 25. and 30. To me, I wanted to purchase a 25. cal for long range because of the extra power and potential of having to shoot a coyote every once in awhile. But watching the video made me realize that in 22. with 34-40 grain slugs he was achieving around 80 foot pounds of energy, which is more than most 25. produce stock and even tuned up a little bit. Obviously 25. can be tuned to create more power, but do you really need any more than 80 foot pounds when hunting pest and small game? I’d feel pretty comfortable taking a coyote out to 50 yards with a headshot if I knew my gun was creating 80 fpe. He also briefly covered how the ballistics of the 22 caliber is better and how that’s another reason he prefers that caliber for long range. Before watching this I was 100% set on buying a 25. for my long range set up but after this am leaning towards a 22. Curious as to what others have to say on the topic.

Thanks.

 

[theotherpursuit]

The world spins on it’s axis; what has become old will become new again.

In the heyday of pellet guns, the .25 was deemed the new .22 , and .30 was considered the new .25 especially when considering long distances.

Then, not all that long ago, came a newcomer to the scene. This fancy fishing weight turned the world upside down. Various tribes consisting of Newbies, Tweakers, and Power Mongers started to ditch the old-world technology with eyes set on these new projectiles. A war was waged across the land, and after the long endured fighting ended a victor emerged from the dust and ashes.

Behold the slug!

Today a knight was crowned King of the land. King Slug .22 became respected and loathed by his clan of ancestors, the pellets..

top

ps - Buy the .22 and don’t look back with regret. Then save some more and add other calibers to your clan.

 

[Solo1]

Its not really possible to argue the math the only thing left to contemplate is the damage and if you’re talking strictly head shots get the 22

 

[nervoustrig]

Anything that can be achieved in .22 cal can be duplicated at higher energy in a larger caliber, and the result will be a bigger hole and more tissue damage at the expense of more air consumption. So it seems we can boil it down to something quite like your question...is .22 cal good enough for your purposes? Sounds to me like it is. Certainly plenty for any reasonable shot placement on small game and pests, or for a brain shot on a larger critter like a coyote. Personally I wouldn’t be willing to use it for a vitals shot on something that large, or for something like a raccoon. I know from experience that a pellet leaving with as little as 25fpe will vanquish raccoons at 50 yards with proper placement. Crank that number to 80fpe with a slug that bucks the wind much better and you have a very effective setup with some margin for error.

 

[FrankinFairfield]

A .22lr has more energy than what you speak.

I do not think any ethical hunter would shoot a coyote with a .22lr.

They do bite back.

.223 Remington is the minimum in my book.

 

[idoc]

I am interested in this topic also, as I just ordered a .25 Maverick for long range shooting. I saw what Matt said and it had me questioning my choice. I don't hunt, so for me the question is not the down range energy, but which is more accurate and better able to buck the wind at long ranges (100+yds)? Would love to hear opinions.

 

[bubblerboy64]

Fellows it’s shot placement first then terminal ballistics. I hunt pigeons and I’ve had some fly off using everything . FOR ME the 217 diameter knock out slug (22) caliber works best by a small margin just because it’s the gun and ammo that I can shoot most accurately.

 

[Raden1942]

@Frankenfairfield with all due respect 22lr has probably taken more yote than any other Caliber down through history. Headshots are preferred but with a well constructed bullet or even just a lead non expanding so as to get good penetration you can take heart lung shots. I won't argue the 223 as a great improvement in ballistics but saying no ethical hunter would use one is wrong. Now I know my limits. I would not shoot a yote on the run with a 22lr like I would with a 223. From a good shooting position aiming for head a 22lr or a 22 pellet with enough energy and bullet construction is fine. Personally I won't aim for heart lung shots unless I have a powerful 25 cal pellet gun but if it's really close and your a good shot why not? Ethical hunting isn't about Caliber its about knowing your gun and your personal limitations. I'm not giving you a hard time here I understand you think that way for a reason but literally thousands of coyote are taken perfectly ethically using airguns and 22lr.

 

[bandg]

A .22lr has more energy than what you speak.

I do not think any ethical hunter would shoot a coyote with a .22lr.

They do bite back.

.223 Remington is the minimum in my book.

Different opinions certainly exist, but knowing what coyotes do to small game, pets, and even yearling fawns, I shoot them with whatever I have in my hand. Your view of "ethical" ends with you.

 

[boscoebrea]

I was going to ask this very question.First off shoot to kill or do not shoot;If that is the case bigger is better,always has been, always will be=for the average shot.shot placement is always critical.nothing new there either...

I am finding out with a lot of new air gunners they "think" the equipment is where it is at,Wrong again wrong..it is your what is in your head ,your experience, training and practice is where it is at....

Matt can do what he does because of what he has learned,most of us do not have his experience....

That question is a good one,I will make it easier for you,get the .25,bigger holes are better holes and in good hands either caliber will work.

Oh no,I see I may become hypocritical,ok then with your good logic the .22 will do what the .25 will do,Yes choices are a great thing and the .22 will do what you want.....did I just "circle the wagon".LOL....OK I answered my own question,I am getting the .22 ....

 

[Centercut]

I am interested in this topic also, as I just ordered a .25 Maverick for long range shooting. I saw what Matt said and it had me questioning my choice. I don't hunt, so for me the question is not the down range energy, but which is more accurate and better able to buck the wind at long ranges (100+yds)? Would love to hear opinions.

I think Matt said in one of the notes that the max BC for .22 at max magazine length is about 0.130, and the .25 is 0.110 under the same conditions. In a 10 MPH cross wind, this equates to about 1/2 inch better performance at 100 yards for the .22 compared to the .25. Or 3.7 MOA to 3.1 MOA. At 200 yards the difference would be approx. two inches. Better, but significant? Up to you to decide...

 

[theotherpursuit]

A .22lr has more energy than what you speak.

I do not think any ethical hunter would shoot a coyote with a .22lr.

They do bite back.

.223 Remington is the minimum in my book.

Different opinions certainly exist, but knowing what coyotes do to small game, pets, and even yearling fawns, I shoot them with whatever I have in my hand. Your view of "ethical" ends with you.

So I see that you have convinced yourself that you are the savior of pets and yearling fawns. Save all the poor animals which man has created and/or placed in peril. Yet, destroy the villainous coyote doing just what they do.

You are correct, you prescribe to a different flavor of the ethical icepop.

top

 

[dizzums]

hmm .. to me the problem with 'swugs' is the speed and trajectory if we're talking hunting .. things are dynamic theyre not the measured off known distance .. so if i wanted .22 to shoot slugs the same weight as a .25 more or less then it needs to shoot them at the same speed so the trajectory isnt to sharp .. in other words, it needs to shoot flat so theres less guess work .. its a long ways to 100 with a pellet .. if your hunting .25 is the way to go with 'most' guns anyway theyre tuned for it, less shot count etc .. sure you could do it with .22 but why, the .25 has more frontal impact area lol .. 

 

[bandg]

A .22lr has more energy than what you speak.

I do not think any ethical hunter would shoot a coyote with a .22lr.

They do bite back.

.223 Remington is the minimum in my book.

Different opinions certainly exist, but knowing what coyotes do to small game, pets, and even yearling fawns, I shoot them with whatever I have in my hand. Your view of "ethical" ends with you.

So I see that you have convinced yourself that you are the savior of pets and yearling fawns. Save all the poor animals which man has created and/or placed in peril. Yet, destroy the villainous coyote doing just what they do.

You are correct, you prescribe to a different flavor of the ethical icepop.

top

"Savior" of nothing. Your term, not mine. But I definitely have a different view of it than you seem to. And always will.

 

[TNT19]

In my short 46 years where 41 of them have been hunting everything from tiny rats to elk, I have learned "to know thy gun is to know thyself." I use a 129gr bthp bullet in my 6.5 grendel powder burner and have taken full grown bull elk at 500 yards. Most would shirk at that say you need more lead, but I know my abilities and my guns so no ish there. In airgunnig it's much the same principle. If you know your airgun and you know yourself then you will know what can and can not be done. I have taken yotes out to 75 yards with 33 gr in 25 caliber pushing over 60 ft lbs with one shot to the head. So yes Matt is absolutely a space above most ad he is on the ground floor helping to develop the guns he shoots which puts him in the knowing his gun 100 so if you feel you are on the same level then go with the 22.

 

[dc8cappie]

Remember, Mats conclusion is based on the length of the longest slug that fits an FX Impact/Maverick magizine.The scenario changes if you are looking at something like an AirForce air rifle, does it not.

 

[Corvid_hunter]

Matt is limited to a .22cal as the max size in Africa. Would he shoot a larger caliber if possible?

 

[Leatherman]

I look at it like this. I have hunted with muzzleloaders most of my life taking all kinds of large and medium game with round soft lead ball In calibers from 40 to 62. I don’t use more than 100 grains of black powder in any of those in fact usually around 45 grains in the smaller calibers to 90 grains in the largest. This means most of the velocities are in the 1400 to 1600 FPS. Remember these are round soft lead bullets going relatively slow when compaired to centerfire ammo which are going twice the speed but in much smaller diameter and weight bullets and three times the foot pounds. There were very few times the round balls did not fully penetrate deer size game but usually was under the skin on the opposite side. Expansion was decent at those velocities say about twice the original size but tissue damage is relatively small compared to centerfire ammo. If you consider the size of the bullet to the size of the animal. , I would say a .22 or .25 pellet or slug on a coon or coyote is about proportional to using 45 or 50 or even 60 caliber round ball on a deer. I don’t expect deer or larger game to drop on the spot with a lug heart shot with my muzzleloaders but some do, and some take some tracking to find. So does this mean using a 50 caliber muzzleloader for large game is unethical?? Should we take head shots on deer with muzzloaders? I think a heart lung shot on a coyote is appropriate as long a good expanding slug is use at a velocity that will provide acceptable penetration regardless of caliber. There have been numerous tests shown on this forum on expansion on various pellets and slugs . Dome pellets do not expand so shouldn’t be used on medium prey body shots. Some of the hollow point slugs have poor expansion especially in the larger calibers which makes since as the larger calibers like 30 caliber have thicker walls around the hole and have slower velocities so they don’t expand as much as the .22. FX Hybrids for example, the .22 expands more than the 30 does in ballistic jell at the same speed. Some brands of slugs use harder alloys than others and some have thinner walled hollow point designs and Polly balls embedded in the slug to promote better expansion. Over the years I have come to realize that size does matter in muzzleloader round balls. Large balls leave large holes which produce more blood lose and easier blood trails to follow. And they have dropped more deer on the spot so I now hunt with a 60 caliber muzzleloader. When hunting extremely large game like elk or moose with powder burners I choose a bonded core bullet that is designed to expand but retain most of its weight for best penetration. So now I am trying to do the same with my airgun slugs . Trying to Pick the correct bullet for the job regardless of caliber even if it doesn’t give that 3/4” group at 100 yards. How many deer rifles are there out there that can do 3/4” groups at 100 yds? It’s not needed for deer size game . It isn’t needed for coyote size game either. But foot pounds is for penetration and expansion. 

 

[Long_Gun_Dallas]

Hmmm has anyone seen an actual wound channel of a standard diabolo pellet in ballistic gel? It's actually quite nasty and would be devestating on internal organs. Larger caliber the better. I think for yote, I would want a .25 or larger. Slug with not a ton of expansion. Penetration drops very quickly the larger the projectile. But of course thats just how I feel about the matter. Not really grounded in what will or will not work. 

 

[luxurycat]

This is a good topic for discussion. The science is the science. And than there is practical application. If you are only going to shoot mid sized game .25 is better. If you want to hunt 140 yards .25 is necessary by velocity at impact. I love love my .22 and, I can hunt squirrel out to 160 yards. But, the impact at 140 is dramaticlly different than an impact at 120. In .25 in the same conditions the impact is barely a noticeable difference even out to 160. Then the weather conditions come to play and its .25 at 75 yards for accuracy alone. I am lucky to have a platform that lets me be practical up to .35. I use the science but always think practical. I KNOW we are talking 50 yards, I KNOW we are talking Coyote but, who has 200 Coyote hunts to speak of? Do not ask me what I would shoot a Coyote with.