200 plus yrds?

[Flintsack]

When I was a young man I rented a cabin in Michigan on a lake to live in. It was awesome. One of the requests of the owner, was that I thin out the muskrat population because they’re horrible on shore retention.

My response, “Oh gosh, OK, can I use my 124”? Anyways enough with the background. I was shooting silver jets, the kind that beeman claimed were turned on a lathe…

One night it was absolutely dead calm. I was out on the deck enjoying the night. When I saw the water rat at 300 or so. Water like glass.


so I guessed on my holdover. Held dead for dead wind. I missed by a long ways. Probably 6 feet. He went under. He came back up, approximately the same distance. I shot again, missed by less than a foot.. He went under. Then he came back up. He was at least 200+ yards from shore, he can’t just go under and get away. I shot again, another very near miss. You could see the water splash right next to him. He went under again. I shot again. No splash. Loud whack. Well not real loud but I can hear it. He sinks. He doesn’t come back up. This is a 14 foot pound feinwerkbau springer, built in 1979.

I’m guessing I’ll never do that again. And I absolutely walked my shots, The water was the perfect pallet. The water rat, was the perfect target. I hit him in the head because there was no splash.

I tend to dislike absolutes. Like if you see a MOA group... Or, you can’t do this or that consistently….What is the definition of consistently?


There are really no goal posts around this thread. Which is why we would tend to disagree, There is no common thread to calibrate the discussion. 


That said, it was a good discussion.


mike

 

[bandg]

"I tend to dislike absolutes"

Same here. Saying one "can" do something indicates to me that he "can" do it. Not do it sometimes, not do it under ideal conditions.

"Or, you can’t do this or that consistently….What is the definition of consistently?"

Seems exactly the same as saying you CAN "do that" consistently.

 

[RM.510bigbore]

My vote to for the Texan tethered. My stock 50 tx2 valve pushes 650 sPire point boat tails at 750 fps with a b.c of around .5. It has plenty of energy at 200 plus. The real question with long range air guns how are you getting the adjustment to shoot real long range. I went with the heritage arms cold shot adjustable base with 166 mils my Texan will shoot further than I can currently find a safe place to shoot farther. Not a bad problem for a little air gun.

 

[qball]

reading and finding the right condition to shoot IS part of the skill require to be able to make very long shots. Knowing when to take a shot and when not take take a shot IS a skill set essential to long distance precision shooting. 


there are people can hit a 12 oz water bottle at 1000 yards or 6 inch plate repeatedly with 223 at 1000 yards. They certainly didn’t find the windiest day to to that. 

 

[bandg]

 "finding the right condition to shoot"

Illustrates the weakness. 

 

[Flintsack]

Bandg,

I don’t understand your comment above. Illustrates the weakness of what?

mike

 

[bandg]

Bandg,

I don’t understand your comment above. Illustrates the weakness of what?

mike

"Even at 200 yards the right slug and gun combo can definitely take down a small game IF the shooter is very skilled. Personally I have never tried hunting anything beyond 110 yards but with the right equipment and understanding of ballistic first shot hit is absolutely possible."

"Can definitely" and "but with the right equipment and understanding of ballistic first shot hit is absolutely possible". The weakness of that view. Sounded like someone stating shooter skill could overcome those pesky conditions, and I believe you recently noted the difficulty those conditions can cause in making a hit. Needing to "find the right condition" doesn't seem to relate that closely to "taking small game".

Shooting at a target at long range with anything can be successful, given enough sighters over a short period of time (or under "ideal conditions"). And that success can instantly disappear with a slight change in conditions. Or if the small game doesn't cooperate.

 

[qball]

@bandg: as I stated, if someone is skillful enough then that person can wait for the right condition and take the shot. At some point no one can overcome the condition. It still takes a lot of skills to make that call and even make that shot in calm condition. With modern tools and good skills 200 yard shot is certain possible. This is why we have this sub forum, honing skills to do what wasn’t possible. If we have your view then we all would still be talking about 50 yard shots. 

 

[bandg]

Seems like an evolution of an opinion (from "can definitely" to "wait for"), but maybe that's just me.

 

[qball]

Seems like an evolution of an opinion (from "can definitely" to "wait for"), but maybe that's just me.

back in the days we need to wait for 100% still/calm condition to make any sort of shots at distance but with modern tools as long as the condition is moderator and not shifting then long shots are still possible/can vs waiting for very calm condition. With skills and tools we are able make shots that we use to wait forever. however everyone’s system, gun/ammo combo and capability are different so there is no definitive answer, the typical engineer answer…..it depends! 


Yes, this is science together with skills which are absolutely evolving for the better. The condition we have to wait for is evolving just like Airguns and ammo so we now can take/make shots in the wind as long as it’s fairly constant. No, there is no absolute as @flintsack has stated. We humans would still be on all fours if we didn’t evolve like we did. 




edit: if you don’t know right away what you are looking at in this picture then you definitely haven’t been following the evolution of ballistics and long range shooting. What once was the stuff of legends CAN be achieve by determined hobbyists. 

 

[bandg]

"back in the days we need to wait for 100% still/calm condition to make any sort of shots at distance"

What happened to that "shooter skill" thing?

You have an opinion. It's worth exactly what it cost you to put it here. Mine is worth the same, and I don't agree with yours. I cannot know what your experience level is but I've been shooting long range firearms since the 70's, so I have a bit of "practical" knowledge on the subject. Although airgun long range shooting is not something I pursue with any regularity, many of the same primary issues must be dealt with, just on a different scale. No amount of "technology" will eliminate the issue of windage.

 

[Flintsack]

I’ve been thinking about this since last night. The conditions I’m shooting in drive everything. They drive which rifle I pick, how far I will consider taking a shot, when I pull the trigger, if I will take a shot at all…

Real life example. I mule deer hunted out west for years. If you’ve read a few of my posts, you can imagine I spent a bit of time on my rifles, getting ready for this pursuit. The very best long range rifle I ever put together was a 6.5 x 284, it was a single shot Cooper with a heavy barrel. I prepped all my brass, and did meticulous hand loads, with extremely long high BC bullets. The second best long range rifle was a factory Weatherby Mark five, in 257 magnum. It’s shot one factory load well under MOA. Both of them were extremely heavy, both of them had big huge sniper scopes on them. I do a lot of walking when I hunt. They became a burden to carry as I aged. So then I built a long range carry rifle…Custom Remington model seven in 260, with a stock I made, Shilen barrel. Unfortunately, it did not live up to its accuracy potential. And was one MOA at best with handloads. It was probably more difficult to shoot accurately out in the field also, because it was so much lighter. Best case scenario it was a 350 yard rifle. I passed on the buck of a lifetime at 450 yards on a reasonably calm day (10 mph wind steady), When carrying the light rifle. I sat there and watched him mount a doe right at daybreak with my cross hairs hovering a couple feet above his back. I can still see it. He even had a name. He was 200+, easy. I didn’t shoot. Equipment plus conditions didn’t add up to a good shot. I could’ve just as easily hit the doe as hit him. If I would’ve had either of my long range rigs, he would have been dead. Now that, is almost an absolute…

guess which rig I carried if I knew it was going to be windy that day? Quite often out west the winds are 20 to 30 mph. All day long you just have wind howling in your face and in your ears. There is no reason to carry the big rig. I wasn’t going out past 300 in those conditions. 350 maybe if it was a perfect set up. But I’m not going to decide that until I’m looking through the scope at the animal. So the conditions actually drove which rifle I brought out to the field. Which further drove the distance at which I could cleanly kill an animal.

Then on top of that, you have the position of the animal you’re trying to shoot at, in this case a deer.

here is an example. I’m going to air my dirty laundry. Sometimes I miss…Neither of these are trophy mule deer, they are both nice. My point is I’m not trying to brag about these mule deer, I think it just adds credence to the story, plus makes it a little more interesting.

The one below I shot at twice. He was 437 yards out, and standing still, quartering towards me. Wind was minimal 5 to 8 mph. I was on my bum bag with my sticks, The same position I had shot baseball size groups at 400 yards prior to coming on the hunt. It was the last day, final evening of our hunt. He just walked right out in the open out of nowhere, probably 10 minutes before dusk. I pulled the first shot and missed him completely. This was very humbling to put it mildly. He didn’t run. The next one went right through the boiler room. First off just being transparent, because everyone misses shots. But second, I was extremely confident of the shot that day, with the rifle that I had in my hand, at that distance, in those conditions. That’s why I shot. Yet I had two completely different outcomes…Certainly no absolutes to apply there. I was well within my comfort zone of making the shot. I’m confident I could sit down with the same rifle in the same conditions and make the shot nine out of ten times…I not only would take the shot again, I did.

Deer  number two below. He was 525 yards away. I was all strapped in and was trying to decide whether I would pull the trigger. It wasn’t about the conditions , I knew I could hit him. It was dead calm and I knew the drop. He was standing perfectly sideways for me. I was looking at his rack wondering if I should pull the trigger because I was looking for a big Mulie…He had so many points. I decided to shoot. Started to actually tighten my finger on the trigger, and he spun around and looked off to his right, Then took off running straight away. Mule deer run either very straight, only their legs move, or else they pogo hop. Just like in the old cartoons when we were kids. I was already all lined up on him, he was running straight away from me, I put the appropriate crosshair on his neck and squeezed the trigger. I can still picture his body going completely slack while still in the air, and then flopping to the ground. I had no time to consider how difficult that shot was. I took it, and I executed perfectly. My shot hit within an inch of where I was intending to hit, the junction of the neck and the body.

Would I have taken that shot if conditions were not perfect? Heck no. Would I have been all lined up to shoot him when he started running, absolutely not. If someone asked me if I would shoot at a running mule deer at 535 yards, I would reply absolutely not, that’s crazy. But he ran straight away, and there was no wind and I was ready. All kinds of conditions dictate everything.

I’m not going to repeat all of what Q ball said above, because he said it very succinctly. 


If you look at this from a target shooting aspect, again conditions dictate everything. I’m watching the flags continuously. while I’m looking through the scope, I’m also watching all the foliage all around me, and I’m feeling the wind on my body. I am also educated in the conditions because I’ve been shooting. I know there’s an approximately X inch wind. But listen to the tomcat talking about his EBR win  . To shoot little tiny groups, you need to judge the wind and pick the perfect time to pull the trigger. (sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t). There’s no doubt that practicing in all kinds of conditions makes it work more often. But Tom cat didn’t pull the trigger when conditions weren’t right, when his hair on his neck was standing up on end, he knew to wait.

Shooting is fun, that’s why I do it. Shooting at long distance is challenging…when I know I’ve shot a little tiny group, and I get to take the walk to go look at it, I smile the entire way. I smile because I’ve beat the odds. The odds of shooting a little tiny group at 190 yards or 240 yards are very low. And totally dependent upon conditions, and more so how I read those conditions.

that’s why people say, in good conditions I can…

And one of the biggest reasons I can do it, is the technology is so much better than it was even three or four years ago.

mike

 

[Flintsack]

Bandg

Although airgun long range shooting is not something I pursue with any regularity,

I would suggest trying it. I also shot long range rifle’s for years. Doing it with air guns is a totally different ballgame. I used the PB examples up above to demonstrate the fact that conditions dictate when and if I pull the trigger, whether I’m shooting at an animal or a piece of paper.

mike

 

[bandg]

"Doing it with air guns is a totally different ballgame."

"Although airgun long range shooting is not something I pursue with any regularity, many of the same primary issues must be dealt with, just on a different scale."

That is exactly what I was saying.

"I would suggest trying it."

Never said I haven't "tried it". Just said it's not something I pursue. I just don't view it as particularly relevant. Others will certainly view it differently. 

 

[Flintsack]

So if you don’t view it as particularly relevant as you put it, why do you have such strong opinions about it? I’m just trying to figure that out. You’ve been a member on here since 2016, obviously a popular guy…

What am I missing?

mike

 

[bandg]

 "obviously a popular guy…"-that's certainly debatable.

I guess I have such strong opinions about it for the same reason you do. I'd say it's because I HAVE tried it that I don't view it as particularly relevant. Can it be enjoyable? Sure. Is it effective? Not particularly, at least IMO. The energy level and windage effects on airguns at "long range" limits their usefulness. There is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying the shooting process, short or long range. But if I need to shoot beyond 100 yards (or even near that range in most cases) I will almost certainly pick up a rimfire. Seems sorta like that "proper conditions for the shot" thing to me. But others certainly view it differently.

Unless I'm mistaken, and based on what I've read here, some of the best shooters around (the recent competitions) had difficulty shooting at 100 yards with the "can do" accuracy many claim for 200 yards. And it seems that possibly the difference in 75 to 100 yards could be significant for airguns. So the jump to 150 or even 200 is pretty extreme. I don't think you're missing anything. We just view it entirely differently.

 

[Flintsack]

One of our members here, just won a rimfire match at a national competition with an air rifle.

In great conditions my red wolf will outshoot my model 54 17HRM at a target. Conversely if it’s windy, I could certainly out shoot the slugs with the 17 HRM.

i’ve shot raccoons and one coyote well beyond 100 yards with a airguns, all one shot kills. And that was with pellets. Slugs are WAY better than pellets.

The hundred yard competitions are shot with pellets at 100 yards. It’s not transferable to this discussion. Shooting pellets consistently beyond 100 yards is almost impossible other than to see what they will do…I actually used to do it fairly often…

But now there’s a better projectile. It’s a slug. If you haven’t tried shooting at Long Range beyond 100 yards with a good slug gun, you have no idea what they’re capable of.

I understand, and I appreciate your answer. You have just as much right to answer the OP’s question than anyone else.

I wonder what the OP thinks of all this?

very quiet…

mike

 

[qball]

"back in the days we need to wait for 100% still/calm condition to make any sort of shots at distance"

What happened to that "shooter skill" thing?

You have an opinion. It's worth exactly what it cost you to put it here. Mine is worth the same, and I don't agree with yours. I cannot know what your experience level is but I've been shooting long range firearms since the 70's, so I have a bit of "practical" knowledge on the subject. Although airgun long range shooting is not something I pursue with any regularity, many of the same primary issues must be dealt with, just on a different scale. No amount of "technology" will eliminate the issue of windage.

LOL! So you don't shoot long range, you bad mouth/troll thread on long range topic which you DON'T do with any ernest, you question people's skills in areas you have NO expertise in. And having technologies/tools isn't skill because if I handed you my gun and ballistic system it would be a no brainer for you to setup it up and make that 100+ yard first shot hit! Because even a caveman can do it! 

Congratulations! Because you just won yourself the ignore member award! 

 

[bandg]

"back in the days we need to wait for 100% still/calm condition to make any sort of shots at distance"

What happened to that "shooter skill" thing?

You have an opinion. It's worth exactly what it cost you to put it here. Mine is worth the same, and I don't agree with yours. I cannot know what your experience level is but I've been shooting long range firearms since the 70's, so I have a bit of "practical" knowledge on the subject. Although airgun long range shooting is not something I pursue with any regularity, many of the same primary issues must be dealt with, just on a different scale. No amount of "technology" will eliminate the issue of windage.

LOL! So you don't shoot long range, you bad mouth/troll thread on long range topic which you DON'T do with any ernest, you question people's skills in areas you have NO expertise in. And having technologies/tools isn't skill because if I handed you my gun and ballistic system it would be a no brainer for you to setup it up and make that 100+ yard first shot hit!



Congratulations! Because you just won yourself the ignore member award!

Back at ya, hot dog. And I don't believe you can do it.

 

[bandg]

One of our members here, just won a rimfire match at a national competition with an air rifle.

In great conditions my red wolf will outshoot my model 54 17HRM at a target. Conversely if it’s windy, I could certainly out shoot the slugs with the 17 HRM.

i’ve shot raccoons and one coyote well beyond 100 yards with a airguns, all one shot kills. And that was with pellets. Slugs are WAY better than pellets.

The hundred yard competitions are shot with pellets at 100 yards. It’s not transferable to this discussion. Shooting pellets consistently beyond 100 yards is almost impossible other than to see what they will do…I actually used to do it fairly often…

But now there’s a better projectile. It’s a slug. If you haven’t tried shooting at Long Range beyond 100 yards with a good slug gun, you have no idea what they’re capable of.

I understand, and I appreciate your answer. You have just as much right to answer the OP’s question than anyone else.

I wonder what the OP thinks of all this?

very quiet…

mike

Too bad qball isn't that adult.