I’m not sure that is relevant Jimmy.
That’s probably how they came up with the EBR, though.
Mike
That’s probably how they came up with the EBR, though.
Mike
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100 Yard Benchrest - Luck or Skill?
- Thread starter Centercut
- Start date
First cards on test target. Scored with .350 plug. 9-10 West wind...but not too bad to shoot in. The tighter rings keep the score reigned in despite hitting more 10s. X counts are high...but I’m not sure that is a bad thing.
Mike
Mike
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Interesting to say the least. The x ring just seems to big? I'm game to try it once this swampy summer is over. Wooohoooo, more money spent on card stock! LOL I'll need a .35 plug too!
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Nah! Stevie Wonder riding by on a fast horse could see that this new target is not gonna fly!
I’m fine with old target. I don’t buy into the theory that it’s mostly luck. Let’s keep progressing.
I’m fine with old target. I don’t buy into the theory that it’s mostly luck. Let’s keep progressing.
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It could be too big, Jimmy. I’m not sure that it hurts anything though. It seems like an oddly high x count...but that’s probably just because we are used to it being lower.
Hopefully some others will try it out too.
ZX 10....could you kindly point me to where I said the current target is mostly luck. I would like to see that. That must be why everybody keeps saying that. I think you probably just read the title that mike cleverly made to sound like I said it was luck.
Like there is a chance in hell Robert would change the target because someone else though it needed to be changed? Please
Its a 100% mathematical fact that hitting a 1/2” 10 ring requires an element of luck with a gun that can only group 1.25” reliably at 100. So it really doesn’t matter if you buy it or not.
Mike
Hopefully some others will try it out too.
ZX 10....could you kindly point me to where I said the current target is mostly luck. I would like to see that. That must be why everybody keeps saying that. I think you probably just read the title that mike cleverly made to sound like I said it was luck.
Like there is a chance in hell Robert would change the target because someone else though it needed to be changed? Please
Its a 100% mathematical fact that hitting a 1/2” 10 ring requires an element of luck with a gun that can only group 1.25” reliably at 100. So it really doesn’t matter if you buy it or not.
Mike
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And when did I say that you, Mike N., said it was luck? I kindly did not. No reason to get puffed up amigo.
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Uhm, there’s been quite a few others besides you that have expressed their opinion that luck plays too big a role.
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Cc your the maths expert. Is the following correct?
If you work out the % of the area the 10 ring (scoring area) occupies within the scoring area of the 9 ring (scoring area)
Then have 25 pellets land randomly within the scoring area of the 9 ring what would be the average score?
If consistently you could better this average score then there is a degree of skill. But if the score is only ever the average or worse then the odd high score must be luck.
This would mathematical show the element of luck in perfect conditions. If this is true in perfect conditions and there is already an element of luck what’s the point of complicating things further by adding wind?
My point is I’m sure you could work out if a gun can consistently shoot 11/4inch (or 1inch) groups the hypothetical average score with the current targets in perfect conditions. You could work out the probability of hitting the ten. If you can’t hit it more than the mathematical probability indicates what’s the point?
If you work out the % of the area the 10 ring (scoring area) occupies within the scoring area of the 9 ring (scoring area)
Then have 25 pellets land randomly within the scoring area of the 9 ring what would be the average score?
If consistently you could better this average score then there is a degree of skill. But if the score is only ever the average or worse then the odd high score must be luck.
This would mathematical show the element of luck in perfect conditions. If this is true in perfect conditions and there is already an element of luck what’s the point of complicating things further by adding wind?
My point is I’m sure you could work out if a gun can consistently shoot 11/4inch (or 1inch) groups the hypothetical average score with the current targets in perfect conditions. You could work out the probability of hitting the ten. If you can’t hit it more than the mathematical probability indicates what’s the point?
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Well if that is the score of a gun that can put every pellet in the 9 ring randomly then the element of skill should better that score. 231 is random every point higher means you’ve hit the 10 ring more than just the mathematical probability of hitting the 10 ring (skill)
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To me you need to hit the ten ring more than the mathematical probability to justify its size.
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Very well said!
From an average 100 yard non competitive shooter’s standpoint, it is easy to see that there are good arguments that support how both skill and luck combined; or statistical probability and experience are needed when shooting the current official sized EBR targets. Many acknowledge there is some combination of skill and luck with today’s air rifles and technology to shoot top scores at this distance. Objectively speaking I agree with both viewpoints, but do believe it’s a lot more skill than luck that achieves good scores and consistently. I also see the advantage of removing some elements of the “luck“ factor by increasing the 10 ring and other ring diameters. Both statements are true in my mind.
Just to illustrate an example, I have two solid air rifles ( RAW .22 HP and RW .25 Safari) that should be capable of shooting some decent scores at 100 yards. Neither is capable ( in my hands anyway) of “consistently” averaging 1.2” groups with a total shot count of either 25 or 50 shots; shooting 5-shot groups consecutively. Both can shoot really well at 50 yards, and pretty well at 100 yards on some occasions. I’m still working on trying to make sure both guns are at optimum performance for 100 yards and I’m not there yet. However, I strongly believe that in the right experienced hands; and assuming the gun becomes more accurate, a better shooter would shoot higher scores because of their knowledge, experience and skill.
Frank and others have adequately described all the necessary ingredients which affect the skill and luck variables to do so at 100 yards, so I will not repeat.
If the various events ( EBR, PAC, RMAC, etc) did someday adopt a larger 100 yard target, I can see how this would be a win/win for both the top and 2nd tier shooters for reasons already mentioned.
Whether or not you agree with keepIng the target size unchanged, or what % is luck vs. skill; I can see only good things coming as a result of these recent posts.
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I can see only good things coming as a result of these recent posts.
I look at it the same way Tommy !
I look at it the same way Tommy !
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Also...am I understanding this calculation to mean that a 231 is the average score attainable with a 1.25” patten centered over the bull each time?
Mike
Mike
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Just a surface area comparison. Use EBR 10 Ring plus .35 plug size and EBR 9 ring plus .35 plug size. Determine fraction of 9 ring that the 10 ring takes up, this case about 1/4, and about 1/4 of 25 is about 6. So 225 plus 6 equals 231. I did it in my head so I just rounded. Could be 230 to 232 if you used a calculator.
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