Field Target is an arms race.

Franklink said:

I dislike shooting paper, but my field target practice happens on paper. And almost always with a full sheet of 3/8" circles with a dot in the middle so I can see small changes in the impact point.

I'm a huge proponent of shooting from your actual ft position. I agree with Mike that knowing your gun is critical. And will add that being able to shoot it to its best capabilities from the bench is a different animal than being able to do so when supporting it with your body (like in an ft match).

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thomasair said:

I'm going to point out a few things here that I tend to think should be obvious but clearly are not when I hear the comments being made.

If you want to compare accuracy of anything...you don't do it by small sample group size or by shooting at a ft target. You do it by shooting benchrest cards. Lots of guns can shoot well for small sample sizes. Very few can shoot well over large sample sizes and large temperature changes.

If you don't have great wind reading skills...shoot br cards indoors from a rest or bags and obtain an average. Then do it with another gun. It will be very clear which is most accurate.

After you have established a bench average indoors.....now shoot cards indoors from your position. It will be glaringly apparent if you suck at your position. If you suck at your position then you better continue shooting from position indoors until you can at least nearly equal your bench scores.

When you can nearly shoot as well from position indoors in br cards....you're now ready to go outside and add wind on BR cards from position. Shooting at ft targets rather than paper is not going to help you know the wind. You must have 100% correct feedback every time which means seeing a hole in paper. Shooting a ft target that you cannot see where you hit is nowhere near as effective for learning wind as fast as possible. You will learn the wind the fastest by shooting over wind flags. Once you know wind over flags you can start looking at environmental cues that align with your flags so you can learn the wind without the flags.

Another huge factor in FT that most shooters seem completely oblivious to is how a gun shoots over a broad range of temperature. Lots of guns that are accurate in the morning cannot hit anything in the afternoon. Lots of them. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a lane partner hit everything in the morning after sight in and nothing after the temps came up. Most airguns do not maintain speed very well when temperatures change. Some guys learn their temp changes so they can compensate for it.

A properly tuned Thomas with the standard valve and spring will shoot the same speed range over a massive temperature change. Like 60-80 degrees. If you think that isn't significant in the game of FT....you are not very experienced or maybe you never go anywhere with a different climate. 40 degree temp swings are normal where I live. 60 degrees can happen.

Other guns also have mechanical poi changes due to temperature. This meaning that the poi is not changing with speed but because of some other shrinkage or growth of metal or other material. Thomas rifles don't do that.

If you don't know how these individual factors affect your performance....then you are wasting time. If you want to do the absolute best in the shortest amount of time with your given resources....stop practicing ft on metal targets. It will only make you sloppy.

Learning how to manage a gun and keep it in the most accurate zone is a skill that most FT shooters simply do not possess. Learning how to clean, when to clean and even the best pellets to use is not something you are going to do on a metal target with a big hole in it.

Learning to shoot 250s on 25m BR cards from position will take you places that you could never reach otherwise and it will take you there faster.

A 1/2 moa gun that never has a flier and maintains its poi over a massive change in temperature will always score more points than a 90% 1/2 moa gun that loses 40fps when the temp drops or gains when it increases. BR cards will show you this.

Mike

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thomasair said:

I'm going to point out a few things here that I tend to think should be obvious but clearly are not when I hear the comments being made.

If you want to compare accuracy of anything...you don't do it by small sample group size or by shooting at a ft target. You do it by shooting benchrest cards. Lots of guns can shoot well for small sample sizes. Very few can shoot well over large sample sizes and large temperature changes.

If you don't have great wind reading skills...shoot br cards indoors from a rest or bags and obtain an average. Then do it with another gun. It will be very clear which is most accurate.

After you have established a bench average indoors.....now shoot cards indoors from your position. It will be glaringly apparent if you suck at your position. If you suck at your position then you better continue shooting from position indoors until you can at least nearly equal your bench scores.

When you can nearly shoot as well from position indoors in br cards....you're now ready to go outside and add wind on BR cards from position. Shooting at ft targets rather than paper is not going to help you know the wind. You must have 100% correct feedback every time which means seeing a hole in paper. Shooting a ft target that you cannot see where you hit is nowhere near as effective for learning wind as fast as possible. You will learn the wind the fastest by shooting over wind flags. Once you know wind over flags you can start looking at environmental cues that align with your flags so you can learn the wind without the flags.

Another huge factor in FT that most shooters seem completely oblivious to is how a gun shoots over a broad range of temperature. Lots of guns that are accurate in the morning cannot hit anything in the afternoon. Lots of them. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a lane partner hit everything in the morning after sight in and nothing after the temps came up. Most airguns do not maintain speed very well when temperatures change. Some guys learn their temp changes so they can compensate for it.

A properly tuned Thomas with the standard valve and spring will shoot the same speed range over a massive temperature change. Like 60-80 degrees. If you think that isn't significant in the game of FT....you are not very experienced or maybe you never go anywhere with a different climate. 40 degree temp swings are normal where I live. 60 degrees can happen.

Other guns also have mechanical poi changes due to temperature. This meaning that the poi is not changing with speed but because of some other shrinkage or growth of metal or other material. Thomas rifles don't do that.

If you don't know how these individual factors affect your performance....then you are wasting time. If you want to do the absolute best in the shortest amount of time with your given resources....stop practicing ft on metal targets. It will only make you sloppy.

Learning how to manage a gun and keep it in the most accurate zone is a skill that most FT shooters simply do not possess. Learning how to clean, when to clean and even the best pellets to use is not something you are going to do on a metal target with a big hole in it.

Learning to shoot 250s on 25m BR cards from position will take you places that you could never reach otherwise and it will take you there faster.

A 1/2 moa gun that never has a flier and maintains its poi over a massive change in temperature will always score more points than a 90% 1/2 moa gun that loses 40fps when the temp drops or gains when it increases. BR cards will show you this.

Mike

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Iowa Airgunner said:

My HFT-500 is a magic combo that can clear the corse. I decided to go back to my springers for the challenge. I spent two weeks with my Diana 48 and it cleared one lane twice after tweeting and getting used to it. It is a solid HFT rig now. Then my TX 200 I spent all weekend shooting with a new scope. It just about cleared the corse. The only miss was when I used the bullseye instead of the hold over or the trigger was touched and the gun went off. I shoot a lot and i’m starting to think it might not be the gun.
Next week I’m going to spend time with my old Browning Leverage and see how long it takes before it clears the corse. I think the whole gun and scope cost 250 bucks.

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cavedweller said:

I'm still trying to create a particular type of FT target is designed to teach the shooter about wind as per what Mike is describing:
the inserted cards are basically BR cards, when you hit the target a paddle flips up to block a second shot. Retrieval of the card also shows a numerical score AND an indication of how well you hit (or missed) the Bullseye. Not necessarily practical for a match but certainly doable for a couple of shooters at a time or on your own clock at a range.
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Solo1 said:

I believe your faith or belief that your equipment is perfect plays a big part in your score that and your belief in your ability.

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cavedweller said:

I'm still trying to create a particular type of FT target is designed to teach the shooter about wind as per what Mike is describing:
the inserted cards are basically BR cards, when you hit the target a paddle flips up to block a second shot. Retrieval of the card also shows a numerical score AND an indication of how well you hit (or missed) the Bullseye. Not necessarily practical for a match but certainly doable for a couple of shooters at a time or on your own clock at a range.
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JW. said:

@thomasair

Hornady and Brian Litz have been doing a lot of podcasts and other media about shooting statistics and how a five shot group is essentially worthless.

I think to get a statistically significant group you need to shoot a minimum of 32 shots, something like that. I tend to shoot a lot of pellets as my testing 'groups', I figure I need around 60 shots without a 'flyer', because there are no real fliers, just bad pellets, barrels and shooters and a match is around 60 shots...

I may have to put a few 25m benchrest targets up in the shop and give it a go.

For some reason my original post needs moderation so I deleted it and posted without the quote. Weird.

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cavedweller said:

I may regret this but, I have some stats. As yall might know I have plenty of expensive FT guns and Scopes. Even so, Prior to this weekend my highest percentage of KZ hits on a 64 shot known course was 58%.
This weekend was my first chance to run the course with - A) my new Thomas carbine and - B) my new NX8 sitting on top. I am comparing my new HFT rifle and scope to my Redwolf with a Sightron S3 (not a slouch by any means).

Although looking into the afternoon sun was problematic, West facing course, and I really needed to turn on my illuminating reticle, I didn’t, here are the results - note yards to target ranged to the right of score. One shot per target on a fairly still day.
71.8% or approx a 13% plus improvement.

For the safety of the shooter no standers or kneelers were involved.


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Bramezy said:

Im kind of surprised of any improvement unless it was just conditions or whatever. The Thomas setup is not much more accurate than a RW. Not sure how you can really improve on 1/2 MOA or better at 50y from a RW. Its so minute at the difference that I dont see anyones score going up from it. Benchrest, possibly a tad but thats it. I shoot with too many of each. Its more the person understanding how to use their tools and have the dope and ranging setup right and handling the conditions properly. I beat many RWs and Thomas with my Marauder. You can buy accuracy to a point.

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dgeesaman said:

I’ve seen a score boost from using a good batch of pellets that the gun likes.

That said, my Thomas seems to shoot everything a little better. But it’s only an advantage when it’s shooting a good tin of it’s favorite pellets.

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Motorhead said:

As one who competes in FT with a .20 cal, that leaves a single pellet being the JSB exact 13.73g, so making sure each and every pellet at least has a round skirt profile is done before any big GP event.
Thank goodness the QC on this pellet has been excellent over many years !!! Having a stash of over 40 tins of 500 makes sure if QC of current production falters I'm not effected

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