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scotton

scotton

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Nov 2, 2016
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TX, United States
I'm so far down the PRS airgun rabbit hole that I can no longer see daylight. I decided to mock up the major airguns that are designed for PRS/NRL shooting so I could get a feel for the differences (see edit below). The main metric I'm looking at is the fore end depth, as well as the fore end depth compared to the top of the scope. I found images of everything except the Air Maks Katran N, so I'm using the Katran X HP (just imagine it has a nicer buttstock and a longer M-Lok rail).

(Edit: I know there are other differences between these guns. The main thing I'm comparing here is the physical dimensions of the fore ends. This doesn't need to be a discussion about barrels, regulators, price, customer support, country of origin, etc. Just looking at how small of a space you can stick these guns and still see through the scope.)

I tried my best to size all of the images so that they are comparable. I used the grip height to do this. I also used the grip height as my reference box for the fore end depth for top of barrel to bottom of fore end (black box). The red box is the top of pic rail to bottom of trigger guard (the box is black for the RAW because the gun is red). The green box is a 56ish diameter scope objective. This allows me to use the orange box to show a reference for the top of the scope to the bottom of the rail. I used the dimension of the Panthera as my baseline for this. My vertical grips on various guns measure 4.25" to 4.5", so we can act like the black box is 4.25 ish inches tall.

To be clear, all of the black boxes, red boxes and orange boxes are the same size. I didn't adjust for MOA in the pic rails but I don't think it would make too much difference.

So here are some things I've observed:
  • The FX DRS Pro has the best (shortest) fore end depth. However, the Panthera is pretty close, and the scope top to rail bottom is much better on the Panthera. No point in having a short fore end depth if you still can't see through the scope.
  • Other than the pic rail to trigger guard measurement, the Karma Red Panda is very similar to the Panthera.
  • The RAW in the MPA chassis has some problems with fore end depth. Switching to a tube instead of the bottle wouldn't help because the chassis would still be the chassis.
  • The Katran came out better than I thought it would. Just needs some low rings and I think it would work fine. (Comparing the Katran to the Panthera was the main reason for me doing all of this).
  • I didn't show this, but I made a box that was 5 inches tall and checked each gun to see if the arca rail was sitting in a 5 inch slot, how much of the scope was usable. The FXes and Red Panda were fine. The Katran had about 3/4 of the scope usable (which I can live with on the rare occasions where I need to shoot from a 5 inch slot). The RAW was not usable. You would have to rest the gun on the bipod spigot in this situation.
  • I never noticed how high the pic rail is on the DRS Pro until now. I don't think I like that.
  • The MPA chassis is pretty sick. For $1,300, it better be. (That's just the chassis, you still have to buy a RAW to put in it).
  • MPA makes a chassis for the FX Crown as well, but the fore end is even deeper than the RAW so I didn't use it.

Here is the image. It's not perfect, but it's what I have to work with for now.

airgun_comp.png
 
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tibor said:
your first sentence has passion.. I dig it as well..I think their is a copy cat thing going on in both industries.
View attachment 447973View attachment 447974
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I think the main thing holding air guns back right now is the barrels. They should have a better twist rate, more like rimfire barrels. But you can't just use a rimfire barrel because the slugs are too small for the rimfire barrel diameter. I suspect some time this year one of the custom rimfire barrel makers will start producing air rifle barrels designed to shoot slugs at high velocities out to 350 yards. But it's nice that more manufacturers air catching on to what makes a good PRS rifle: balance and the ability to shoot in tight spaces (without a big air bottle hanging off the front of the gun). Now, if they could make a competitive PRS air gun that doesn't cost the same as a Vudoo, that would be great.
 
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scotton said:
I think the main thing holding air guns back right now is the barrels. They should have a better twist rate, more like rimfire barrels. But you can't just use a rimfire barrel because the slugs are too small for the rimfire barrel diameter. I suspect some time this year one of the custom rimfire barrel makers will start producing air rifle barrels designed to shoot slugs at high velocities out to 350 yards. But it's nice that more manufacturers air catching on to what makes a good PRS rifle: balance and the ability to shoot in tight spaces (without a big air bottle hanging off the front of the gun). Now, if they could make a competitive PRS air gun that doesn't cost the same as a Vudoo, that would be great.
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from what I see the red panda has that barrel and has the weight needed for bench rest at 16 pounds..their other model for prs is lighter.
 
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Nice work Scotton! Great info for us to ponder.

The guy in the photo/Rob has been shooting the tactical match scene for about as long as when these started. We've competed in the past a few times however we weren't squaded together. He's a good shot finishing higher up the roster or winning matches, is a nice person, and very knowledgeable about anything PRS or NRL.

I think I heard on a Red Panda video that the barrel is a bull barrel so I wonder what the diameter is and what system is used to attach the barrel to the receiver.
Also wonder if the Red Panda chassis is strong enough to allow extra weights mounted farther down the forend for perfectly balancing on a bag without stressing out the chassis and action. That as compared to the DRX Pro with that thick heavy duty chassis system. It looks like there is a lot of weight on the back of the Red Panda which isn't ideally where one would want the weight.
 
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tibor said:
from what I see the red panda has that barrel and has the weight needed for bench rest at 16 pounds..their other model for prs is lighter. I will be shooting my first precision match in April with my m3 35cal..excited to give it a try.
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That's great, you'll have a blast. You might want to check the rules for the match to make sure that .35 is allowed. For example, NRL22 allows .35 up to 85 grains, slugs or pellets. PRS Rimfire only allows slugs in .22 and .25, pellets up to .30, nothing bigger than .30.
 
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steve123 said:
Nice work Scotton! Great info for us to ponder.

The guy in the photo/Rob has been shooting the tactical match scene for about as long as when these started. We've competed in the past a few times however we weren't squaded together. He's a good shot finishing higher up the roster or winning matches, is a nice person, and very knowledgeable about anything PRS or NRL.

I think I heard on a Red Panda video that the barrel is a bull barrel so I wonder what the diameter is and what system is used to attach the barrel to the receiver.
Also wonder if the Red Panda chassis is strong enough to allow extra weights mounted farther down the forend for perfectly balancing on a bag without stressing out the chassis and action. That as compared to the DRX Pro with that thick heavy duty chassis system. It looks like there is a lot of weight on the back of the Red Panda which isn't ideally where one would want the weight.
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Yeah, seeing that double (or triple?) tank on the back of the Red Panda made me feel a certain way. Honestly, all of these guns have something I like and something I don't like. If I had to pick a rifle today, it would probably be the Panthera 700 just based on the track record of current competitors. But luckily I can be patient (ish), so I'm going to wait for the Red Panda and Katran N to come out. I want the Katran N to be good because I like the CZ barrel and Huma reg, but if it's priced the same as the Panthera, that will be a tough call. It's easy to talk myself out of the DRS Pro and Red Panda just based on price.
 
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trlrman said:
Dang you Cotton ! Ya called my gun a light weight . So I poured 2 4lb weights and added them . Now I look like Popeye 's more handsome fat brother from carrying that thing around .
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Be careful that the Panthera doesn't tip you over. There might be a rule that your feet have to touch the ground if shooting prone, that would be an issue for my favorite weeble wobble.
 
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I'll see what I can do, but it's not going to be pretty. The arca rail on the Panthera bisects the middle of the top gauge. On the King, it looks to be at least an inch under the bottom gauge. So essentially if you took a Panthera and added an entire air bottle to the bottom of the arca rail, you would have the King. This is one of the two issues I have with my Delta Wolf: a great shooting rifle that is not appropriate for trying to do things that it isn't designed for. My other issue with the Delta Wolf is I don't want to spend that much money playing the barrel lottery hoping I get a .22 barrel that likes slugs. The third issue is 11 round magazines instead of 12 round magazines.

As I told Derrick Wall the other day, I'm not saying someone couldn't use the King for shooting PRS, I'm saying that I couldn't use the King for shooting PRS. (We weren't talking about the King, but the same sentiment applies).
 
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To take this a little farther, I'm going to list Pros and Cons for each rifle that I'm considering for PRS/NRL. These are MY pros and cons and probably won't apply to anyone else, but feel free to list your own and we can get a nice little discussion going. Or a discush, as the kids would say (if the kids were weirdos).

To re-state what I'm looking for, I want a .22 that will shoot 24-40 grain slugs at 900-1,000 fps to 1 MOA accuracy at 100 yards. It needs to be able to be weighted to balance a few inches forward of the chamber. It should be able to be shot in a 5 inch barricade slot and still be able to see through the scope. In short, it should be 90-100% competitive with a Vudoo, RimX or custom CZ or Bergara. Easy, right?

RAW HM1000x
Pros
Known for accuracy
Air Force is local to me
Jeff Cloud would finally stop telling me to buy a RAW

Cons
Front bottle makes high fore end depth, even in MPA chassis, no option for tank instead of bottle
Price ($2000 + $1300 for chassis)
Little bit anemic, listed .22 power max is 50 fpe.
Reg is a pain to adjust

FX Panthera 700
Pros
Purpose built for PRS
Great power
Great magazine round count
Available now
Lots of tuning and customization info/options

Cons
Regulator is rumored to be an issue (don't know how true this is)
Rumored to need to be stiffer in the front end (I assume this is true or companies wouldn't be selling new chassis that look the same as the factory)
Warranty/service - the FX-USA thing has me a little nervous about buying an FX. This may be unfair, but so is life.

FX DRS Pro
Pros
Shinier and newer than the Panthera
No rear bottle
MDT Chassis

Cons
Same as Panthera cons plus:
Price (compared to Panthera)
Less powerful than Panthera
Lower shot count than Panthera
Untested, not sure about the tank over barrel thing

Karma Red Panda PRS
Pros
Innovative
Rear tank design - good round count
Heavy
Good power

Cons
Untested, not out yet
Balance? - How much weight will the front end need to balance the rear tanks?
Price - $2350 isn't terrible, but it's also not great
What if it doesn't make me shoot like Thayne?
Service?

Air Maks Katran N
Pros
CZ Barrel
Huma reg
Price (assuming it is around $1,300 similar to the Katran X HP)

Cons
Not out yet (although the Katran platform has been out for a while, so more of an issue of convenience rather than uncertainty about the gun itself)
Shot count (same tank size as DRS Pro, should be enough for 2 stages before refilling)
Weight - the Katran X HP is only 7 pounds. This isn't too big of a deal, it's pretty easy to add weight with the long M-Lok rail.

Just for grins, I'll list my Delta Wolf (currently in .30)
Pros
I already have one
Good shot count
Great power
Easy adjustability
Onboard chronograph
Easy caliber changes

Cons
Slug accuracy? I don't know if the Daystate barrels are good for shooting slugs at 350 yards, but at $800 (without magazines) I would want to find out
Magazine round count (and cost)
Same (or worse) fore end issues as the RAW. Adding a K&L Drake with the front bottle spigot would help but is not ideal
Rear heavy (fixable with the drake rail)
Price (for the cost of a .22 barrel, magazine, Drake rail and weights, I could buy a Katran or most of a Panthera)

Based on my pros and cons, I'm going to wait for the Katran N to come out and see if it is what I'm looking for. If it's not, I'll probably get a Panthera (new or used). I don't see enough upside to the DRS to justify the price jump, and I want some people to test the "barrel through the tank" thing. I'm not interested in paying full price to be a guinea pig. Same with the Red Panda, but more so. I had thought about getting a Katran X HP and replace the rail and butt stock when the N comes out, but UA isn't sure if the parts will be interchangeable, so I'll just wait. The new NRL season starts in July, so I have time to ponder.
 
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tibor said:
panthers in 30 700 barrel is my new choice..thanks for making post .
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What is your intended use? The reason I ask is because slugs are allowed in .30 for NRL but not PRS Rimfire. If you don't plan to shoot PRS this shouldn't be an issue. If I was planning to just shoot NRL, I would probably stick with the Delta Wolf and find out which slugs it likes. In fact, I might do that anyway and use the Delta Wolf to shoot NRL while I wait for some of these other guns to come out. The 8 round mag is still an issue for the Delta Wolf but if I find slugs that work well I can always get a Charlie mag.
 
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Or how about one of these instead. C'mon man only $6300 😬
Admittedly that 1727F AI is my fantasy PRS/NRL 22rf rig! The Ultimate, that is after installing a thumb push tab off to the right of the back of the bolt. Man oh man I want one!
1711389597846.jpeg


I have my decade old 1827F but it just doesn't cut it against the "all out" PRS guns.

The AI chassis thread and it gets most interesting the last 2-3 pages. https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/ai-chassis-for-anschutz.7107649/
 
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Scott,

you are from MY TRIBE!! 😊

➧ I have seen these to-scale gun images before.
➧ I have seen specs comparisons before.
➧ I have seen endless elaborations of pro's and con's before.


Just did that last year again — endlessly for several months — until I finally made my purchase.... 😉


🔶 Hope you find what you're after. As this area is at the cutting edge of airgunning, waiting a bit will give you more and better choices.


I'm also looking for a 350 yard gun, though not for formal competitions.
But I'll hold off for another year or two — when the choices are better. 😊

Cheers,

Matthias
 
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scotton said:
To take this a little farther, I'm going to list Pros and Cons for each rifle that I'm considering for PRS/NRL. These are MY pros and cons and probably won't apply to anyone else, but feel free to list your own and we can get a nice little discussion going. Or a discush, as the kids would say (if the kids were weirdos).

To re-state what I'm looking for, I want a .22 that will shoot 24-40 grain slugs at 900-1,000 fps to 1 MOA accuracy at 100 yards. It needs to be able to be weighted to balance a few inches forward of the chamber. It should be able to be shot in a 5 inch barricade slot and still be able to see through the scope. In short, it should be 90-100% competitive with a Vudoo, RimX or custom CZ or Bergara. Easy, right?

RAW HM1000x
Pros
Known for accuracy
Air Force is local to me
Jeff Cloud would finally stop telling me to buy a RAW

Cons
Front bottle makes high fore end depth, even in MPA chassis, no option for tank instead of bottle
Price ($2000 + $1300 for chassis)
Little bit anemic, listed .22 power max is 50 fpe.
Reg is a pain to adjust

FX Panthera 700
Pros
Purpose built for PRS
Great power
Great magazine round count
Available now
Lots of tuning and customization info/options

Cons
Regulator is rumored to be an issue (don't know how true this is)
Rumored to need to be stiffer in the front end (I assume this is true or companies wouldn't be selling new chassis that look the same as the factory)
Warranty/service - the FX-USA thing has me a little nervous about buying an FX. This may be unfair, but so is life.

FX DRS Pro
Pros
Shinier and newer than the Panthera
No rear bottle
MDT Chassis

Cons
Same as Panthera cons plus:
Price (compared to Panthera)
Less powerful than Panthera
Lower shot count than Panthera
Untested, not sure about the tank over barrel thing

Karma Red Panda PRS
Pros
Innovative
Rear tank design - good round count
Heavy
Good power

Cons
Untested, not out yet
Balance? - How much weight will the front end need to balance the rear tanks?
Price - $2350 isn't terrible, but it's also not great
What if it doesn't make me shoot like Thayne?
Service?

Air Maks Katran N
Pros
CZ Barrel
Huma reg
Price (assuming it is around $1,300 similar to the Katran X HP)

Cons
Not out yet (although the Katran platform has been out for a while, so more of an issue of convenience rather than uncertainty about the gun itself)
Shot count (same tank size as DRS Pro, should be enough for 2 stages before refilling)
Weight - the Katran X HP is only 7 pounds. This isn't too big of a deal, it's pretty easy to add weight with the long M-Lok rail.

Just for grins, I'll list my Delta Wolf (currently in .30)
Pros
I already have one
Good shot count
Great power
Easy adjustability
Onboard chronograph
Easy caliber changes

Cons
Slug accuracy? I don't know if the Daystate barrels are good for shooting slugs at 350 yards, but at $800 (without magazines) I would want to find out
Magazine round count (and cost)
Same (or worse) fore end issues as the RAW. Adding a K&L Drake with the front bottle spigot would help but is not ideal
Rear heavy (fixable with the drake rail)
Price (for the cost of a .22 barrel, magazine, Drake rail and weights, I could buy a Katran or most of a Panthera)

Based on my pros and cons, I'm going to wait for the Katran N to come out and see if it is what I'm looking for. If it's not, I'll probably get a Panthera (new or used). I don't see enough upside to the DRS to justify the price jump, and I want some people to test the "barrel through the tank" thing. I'm not interested in paying full price to be a guinea pig. Same with the Red Panda, but more so. I had thought about getting a Katran X HP and replace the rail and butt stock when the N comes out, but UA isn't sure if the parts will be interchangeable, so I'll just wait. The new NRL season starts in July, so I have time to ponder.
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I think the panthera wins in my opinion. I have a panthera, or rather a dynamic and I like it a lot. I suggest be open to trying a dynamic instead of the panthera. If you’re lucky like me it’ll fit you perfectly and you’ll have more air capacity without needing the adjustable cheek rest. Its also cheaper. They require med-high rings to accommodate the mag and that brings the scope to just the right height for me.
 
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