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What lead removing solvent gave you the best success?

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Gerry52 said:
You must be referring to firearms, propelled by powder explosion, NOT airguns. Different animal entirely. Airguns DO require a certain amount of beneficiary leading. Sorry if you weren't aware of that.
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Nope, they do not. None of my perhaps 20 airguns have "beneficiary leading" and I highly doubt a barrel that has been properly lapped/polished and waxed would need a whole second barrel liner laid down either.

The whole thing sounds like the ham pan story....
 
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I found some stuff, that's mostly used in the automotive world. Been used to protect bare metal chassis from rust for years.
I've had a Viton o-ring soaking in some for the last three weeks to see if it does any harm (swelling or softening)...so far...so good.

It's called "Gibbs Brand". I cleans and protects bare metal much better/longer than WD40. It seems to clean barrels at least as well as Ballistol. There's no silicone in it.

Mike
 
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Firewalker said:
Nope, they do not. None of my perhaps 20 airguns have "beneficiary leading" and I highly doubt a barrel that has been properly lapped/polished and waxed would need a whole second barrel liner laid down either.

The whole thing sounds like the ham pan story....
Click to expand...
OK, you're right. I guess I neglected to take "alternative facts" into the equation :ROFLMAO: Keep doing what you're doing if it works for you. I'll do the same. Funny how no one has addressed what the benefits/results are to deep cleaning vs those of us who see the benefit of NOT doing it. I only have 3 airguns so I guess I'm not an expert but I DO know how THEY behave.
 
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The fastest way I've found to remove lead in a firearm, especially for combat pistols, is to wrap "copper" charbroil strands around the appropriate sized brush to the appropriate tighter fit to the bore (Warning, don't use brass or stainless steel charbroils)
Also only go from breech to muzzle.

THAT being mentioned I haven't ever had a airgun barrel lead up anywhere close to that of those pistols. But if one had to get the lead totally out this would do it easily and the lead comes out in flakes which were cut out from the sharp edges of the strands. Most of the airguns barrels I've had were good quality but some were polished and the leading has been minor, even using slugs, and really almost nil when using a good lube.

One of my airguns was left in a case and forgotten about then half a year later was rusted up pretty bad. The bore was rusted too so I thought it was ruined and besides that I hadn't cleaned it in years so I gave the charbroil method a try. I removed the barrel and oring, ran a few patches of Boretech, then ran the charbroil as described a half dozen times, then polished the barrel with various grits, then a different cleaner/lube on patches, then one dry patch. Fortunately it still shot great and it doesn't lead up enough to worry about. Only pellets out of this barrel, no slugs.
 
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Gerry52 said:
OK, you're right. I guess I neglected to take "alternative facts" into the equation :ROFLMAO: Keep doing what you're doing if it works for you. I'll do the same. Funny how no one has addressed what the benefits/results are to deep cleaning vs those of us who see the benefit of NOT doing it. I only have 3 airguns so I guess I'm not an expert but I DO know how THEY behave.
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I just don't get it is all.
 
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Firewalker said:
I'm not picking on you Ron, I just don't get the concept of leading up a barrel so much that it shoots better.

My whole life, I've been taught to keep them clean.
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Ok if that's the case I'll explain further. I don't care for arguing. Barrel fouling is important for accuracy. Whether its powder burners or airguns, projectiles usually slide more smoothly on like metal surfaces. The smoother the trip down the barrel the better the accuracy is. When a barrel is stripped to bare steel it takes some shots to lay down the lead or copper to smooth the barrel's bore. Some call this seasoning and others call it proper fouling. The amount of shots depends on the individual barrel and the projectile being used.

Likewise when changing ammo with different metal alloys it can require a few shots before the new ammo prints true. At lower rimfire and airgun velocities regular soft lead is continually cleared and replaced by the following round. Only with rough poor quality barrels would soft lead build up to detrimental levels at subsonic levels. Hard lead will strip out soft lead seasoning in very few shots. Problem is soft lead takes forever to clear the hard lead and reseason the barrel. Its usually quicker to broom out the hard lead and start from scratch. It's even easier not to use hard lead pellets.

BTW centerfire rifles with copper jacketed bullets need some fouling rounds too. My wife's 243 Tikka was sub MOA with $16 Federal blue box ammo and most other cartridges. I bought her some high dollar Barnes TSX bullets for deer hunting and the gun opened up to 3 MOA. I was totally puzzled so I called Barnes. Turns out that copper jackets on regular centerfire ammo are actually a copper alloy and the Barnes bullets are solid pure copper. Since the gun was seasoned with those jacketed alloy bullets accuracy was dismal with pure copper bullets. Only after running a box and a half of very expensive Barnes down the pipe did the gun return to sub MOA. That's a drastic example but it's proved to me the importance of proper fouling. She'll never shoot anything but the Barnes now to save the headaches.

Fouling is not as important if you shoot with $1000 aftermarket hand lapped competition barrels. I don't have any of them so I've learned to pay attention to results and patterns that improve the accuracy of the equipment I can afford.

As far as cleaning barrels and guns goes. I totally understand being taught the importance of cleaning. The military has pounded the importance of gun maintenance into millions of men forever. It's life or death that it functions, so it's done to ensure function. Accuracy takes a back seat to function when you're being shot at. My dad served in the army and was taught to always keep his weapon clean. In turn he taught me to clean a rifle after every shooting. I religiously did this well into adulthood. I found at the range my guns would shoot lousy for the first part of the day. By the end of the day they'd shoot great. Then I'd go home and clean them as taught. Then they'd shoot lousy at the beginning of the next range trip and great by the end of the day. Initially I though it was me. Then I stopped cleaning them thoroughly after each outing and now they shoot great first shot right out of bag. I wasted so much time and money in ammo having to reseason every gun on every range trip.

Typically powder burners need to be occasionally cleaned to remove carbon deposits and other residues. This is can be done less often than most people think. If you were to store the gun for sometime a final oiled patch is in order.

Airguns don't have any significant combustion deposits to clean. If a barrel is polished, of decent quality, and you stay with soft lead pellets you should never have to clean an airgun barrel. An oiled patch is still a good idea before storing for long periods of time.

I hope this all makes sense.
 
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Mycapt65 said:
Ok if that's the case I'll explain further. I don't care for arguing. Barrel fouling is important for accuracy. Whether its powder burners or airguns, projectiles usually slide more smoothly on like metal surfaces. The smoother the trip down the barrel the better the accuracy is. When a barrel is stripped to bare steel it takes some shots to lay down the lead or copper to smooth the barrel's bore. Some call this seasoning and others call it proper fouling. The amount of shots depends on the individual barrel and the projectile being used.

Likewise when changing ammo with different metal alloys it can require a few shots before the new ammo prints true. At lower rimfire and airgun velocities regular soft lead is continually cleared and replaced by the following round. Only with rough poor quality barrels would soft lead build up to detrimental levels at subsonic levels. Hard lead will strip out soft lead seasoning in very few shots. Problem is soft lead takes forever to clear the hard lead and reseason the barrel. Its usually quicker to broom out the hard lead and start from scratch. It's even easier not to use hard lead pellets.

BTW centerfire rifles with copper jacketed bullets need some fouling rounds too. My wife's 243 Tikka was sub MOA with $16 Federal blue box ammo and most other cartridges. I bought her some high dollar Barnes TSX bullets for deer hunting and the gun opened up to 3 MOA. I was totally puzzled so I called Barnes. Turns out that copper jackets on regular centerfire ammo are actually a copper alloy and the Barnes bullets are solid pure copper. Since the gun was seasoned with those jacketed alloy bullets accuracy was dismal with pure copper bullets. Only after running a box and a half of very expensive Barnes down the pipe did the gun return to sub MOA. That's a drastic example but it's proved to me the importance of proper fouling. She'll never shoot anything but the Barnes now to save the headaches.

Fouling is not as important if you shoot with $1000 aftermarket hand lapped competition barrels. I don't have any of them so I've learned to pay attention to results and patterns that improve the accuracy of the equipment I can afford.

As far as cleaning barrels and guns goes. I totally understand being taught the importance of cleaning. The military has pounded the importance of gun maintenance into millions of men forever. It's life or death that it functions, so it's done to ensure function. Accuracy takes a back seat to function when you're being shot at. My dad served in the army and was taught to always keep his weapon clean. In turn he taught me to clean a rifle after every shooting. I religiously did this well into adulthood. I found at the range my guns would shoot lousy for the first part of the day. By the end of the day they'd shoot great. Then I'd go home and clean them as taught. Then they'd shoot lousy at the beginning of the next range trip and great by the end of the day. Initially I though it was me. Then I stopped cleaning them thoroughly after each outing and now they shoot great first shot right out of bag. I wasted so much time and money in ammo having to reseason every gun on every range trip.

Typically powder burners need to be occasionally cleaned to remove carbon deposits and other residues. This is can be done less often than most people think. If you were to store the gun for sometime a final oiled patch is in order.

Airguns don't have any significant combustion deposits to clean. If a barrel is polished, of decent quality, and you stay with soft lead pellets you should never have to clean an airgun barrel. An oiled patch is still a good idea before storing for long periods of time.

I hope this all makes sense.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the reply.

My Apparition and my Maverick don't need fouling shots from a clean/cold barrel but the Maverick does need a dry fire shot to reset the first regulator.

I'll see what the m60b's do once it gets warmer out.
 
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I have shot handguns for many years and can attest to the fouled barrels shooting spot on after non-cleaning. Like Ron, I would initially spend time cleaning after each range trip, only to find that I had to shoot it in again. I would adjust my sights only to return to the original setting once my barrel was adequately seasoned again.
I clean my revolver barrel perhaps once every two years, this without a hiccup in accuracy.
My friend asked me why, my answer is: "Why clean your barrel after you just got it sighted in once fouled? Seems redundant to me to do so."
Even benchrest shooters foul their barrels after cleaning, so that makes sense to me to just leave my barrel fouled from the last outing.
But I also understand the mindset from being told to clean after every outing from many experts.
Everyone it seems has a theory on what/how to clean. I have learned from my experience shooting handguns and will continue to do what I do.

Mike
 
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In my air guns I've been using Thompson Center T17 Black Powder Bore Cleaner. I originally bought this cleaner for use in my black powder guns.
Like any black powder cleaning solvent this stuff is non petroleum based so it can be used in spring piston air guns.
It cleans the bore very well and I've had no dieseling issues.

1710784646459-947113097.jpg
 
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Gerry52 said:
OK, you're right. I guess I neglected to take "alternative facts" into the equation :ROFLMAO: Keep doing what you're doing if it works for you. I'll do the same. Funny how no one has addressed what the benefits/results are to deep cleaning vs those of us who see the benefit of NOT doing it. I only have 3 airguns so I guess I'm not an expert but I DO know how THEY behave.
Click to expand...
Guys, you may both be correct. Before transitioning almost exclusively to air guns, I shot a bunch of CF and RF rifles in numerous disciplines. I'll offer a couple of thoughts based on those 50+ years. First, at the highest level of BR competition, where the demand for precision accuracy is highest, I've never shot anything that did not perform best when clean (some needed 2 or 3 "fouling" shots to eliminate any solvent residue). That includes both firearm and air gun. That assumes a high quality barrel that has been sufficiently lapped, either by firing or manually. So, what's with the theory that barrels shoot better with a layer of lead? Three thoughts on that. First, I believe some barrels have small machining burrs, and the effects are alleviated by some leading. Next, (and especially with the original Smooth Twist barrels), they don't actually shoot better fouled, they simply don't get fouled. They have only a short section of rifling near the muzzle, and it collects very little lead. Lastly, a lot of air rifles are used in activities that do not require precision accuracy, or, the shooter is unable to perform at that level. In either instance (since we don't know what we don't know), the shooter doesn't know the barrel capability, and doesn't need any better performance.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, but those are my opinions. And my wife says I'm always wrong.
 
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elh0102 said:
Guys, you may both be correct. Before transitioning almost exclusively to air guns, I shot a bunch of CF and RF rifles in numerous disciplines. I'll offer a couple of thoughts based on those 50+ years. First, at the highest level of BR competition, where the demand for precision accuracy is highest, I've never shot anything that did not perform best when clean (some needed 2 or 3 "fouling" shots to eliminate any solvent residue). That includes both firearm and air gun. That assumes a high quality barrel that has been sufficiently lapped, either by firing or manually. So, what's with the theory that barrels shoot better with a layer of lead? Three thoughts on that. First, I believe some barrels have small machining burrs, and the effects are alleviated by some leading. Next, (and especially with the original Smooth Twist barrels), they don't actually shoot better fouled, they simply don't get fouled. They have only a short section of rifling near the muzzle, and it collects very little lead. Lastly, a lot of air rifles are used in activities that do not require precision accuracy, or, the shooter is unable to perform at that level. In either instance (since we don't know what we don't know), the shooter doesn't know the barrel capability, and doesn't need any better performance.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, but those are my opinions. And my wife says I'm always wrong.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say you're wrong but hand lapped competition barrels are different than production barrels. I've shot thousands of pellets from different manufacturers into groups over a chronograph. You can see the changes in average velocity before and after scrubbing a barrel or changes of pellet metallurgy. You can clearly see how many shots it takes to recover the lost velocity. You can also see changes in average group size throughout the process. Its a measurable amount, sometimes the groups and or velocity actually improve immediately after a switch, but usually they degrade initially. Either way the groups usually don't stabilize until the velocity does. Anytime switching between brands with different metal alloys it's best to ignore the first few groups because it will take X amount of shots to stabilize depending on the pellet and that particular barrel.

Most of my extensive chronographed testing experiences are with Weihrauch springers which I'm sure could be more fussy than PCPs. Springers have a lot going on as the pellet travels the barrel. Years ago I charted average velocities from hundreds groups sizes vs pellet brand changes and barrel cleaning. It's measurable and certainly not a figment of my imagination. Solid testing in controlled conditions


For the record my RF/CF experience while not competitive I do shoot several times a week. Originally at a range in NY where I got to shoot and chat with many BR competitors. Now I shoot pistols and rifles from my porch in AR almost daily. None of my rifles shoot well after a barrel cleaning. That's 14 or 15 rifles that all take a few to a dozen rounds to shoot their norm. I have also seen weird stuff like my 22LR Tikka shoots lead SK Pistol Match SV ammo very well. But for only so long. When it goes bad I shoot four or five CCI copper clad HV rounds through it and the SK goes right back to shooting very well. If I clean the barrel instead the same SK ammo will easily take 15-20 rounds to stabilize after a barrel cleaning. For the life of me I can't figure it out but it happens and the targets prove it. I'm not making this up. If you're ever in Northern AR you're welcome to swing by and see for yourself.

image.jpg


image.jpg
 
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elh0102 said:
Guys, you may both be correct. Before transitioning almost exclusively to air guns, I shot a bunch of CF and RF rifles in numerous disciplines. I'll offer a couple of thoughts based on those 50+ years. First, at the highest level of BR competition, where the demand for precision accuracy is highest, I've never shot anything that did not perform best when clean (some needed 2 or 3 "fouling" shots to eliminate any solvent residue). That includes both firearm and air gun. That assumes a high quality barrel that has been sufficiently lapped, either by firing or manually. So, what's with the theory that barrels shoot better with a layer of lead? Three thoughts on that. First, I believe some barrels have small machining burrs, and the effects are alleviated by some leading. Next, (and especially with the original Smooth Twist barrels), they don't actually shoot better fouled, they simply don't get fouled. They have only a short section of rifling near the muzzle, and it collects very little lead. Lastly, a lot of air rifles are used in activities that do not require precision accuracy, or, the shooter is unable to perform at that level. In either instance (since we don't know what we don't know), the shooter doesn't know the barrel capability, and doesn't need any better performance.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, but those are my opinions. And my wife says I'm always wrong.
Click to expand...
No, Ed your WIFE is wrong (but don't tell her I said that! :ROFLMAO: ). I think you're right on point with your response (but MY wife says I'M wrong). All I have are OST barrels & those truly are different from most so my opinion may be skewed. Leave it to you to be the "voice of reason". Thanks!
 
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I know how accurate my guns are and I only clean the barrel if the groups open up slightly. While I am at it I take the opportunity to replace the o rings and give the gun a clean (dirt and grease can migrate into the action causing inconsistencies)

I use a pull through a patch with wd 40 followed by 3 or 4 dry to clean. Normally it takes about 10-20 shots to settle back down

Bb
 
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Mycapt65 said:
I wouldn't say you're wrong but hand lapped competition barrels are different than production barrels. I've shot thousands of pellets from different manufacturers into groups over a chronograph. You can see the changes in average velocity before and after scrubbing a barrel or changes of pellet metallurgy. You can clearly see how many shots it takes to recover the lost velocity. You can also see changes in average group size throughout the process. Its a measurable amount, sometimes the groups and or velocity actually improve immediately after a switch, but usually they degrade initially. Either way the groups usually don't stabilize until the velocity does. Anytime switching between brands with different metal alloys it's best to ignore the first few groups because it will take X amount of shots to stabilize depending on the pellet and that particular barrel.

Most of my extensive chronographed testing experiences are with Weihrauch springers which I'm sure could be more fussy than PCPs. Springers have a lot going on as the pellet travels the barrel. Years ago I charted average velocities from hundreds groups sizes vs pellet brand changes and barrel cleaning. It's measurable and certainly not a figment of my imagination. Solid testing in controlled conditions


For the record my RF/CF experience while not competitive I do shoot several times a week. Originally at a range in NY where I got to shoot and chat with many BR competitors. Now I shoot pistols and rifles from my porch in AR almost daily. None of my rifles shoot well after a barrel cleaning. That's 14 or 15 rifles that all take a few to a dozen rounds to shoot their norm. I have also seen weird stuff like my 22LR Tikka shoots lead SK Pistol Match SV ammo very well. But for only so long. When it goes bad I shoot four or five CCI copper clad HV rounds through it and the SK goes right back to shooting very well. If I clean the barrel instead the same SK ammo will easily take 15-20 rounds to stabilize after a barrel cleaning. For the life of me I can't figure it out but it happens and the targets prove it. I'm not making this up. If you're ever in Northern AR you're welcome to swing by and see for yourself.

View attachment 446724

View attachment 446725
Click to expand...
Regarding your RF experience, I think that the firing of a few HV rounds is, in effect, a form of cleaning out some leading from the SV ammo. After a traditional cleaning, it takes more rounds to get all of the cleaning agent out. My guess, if you used only the HV method of "cleaning", you might find your "accuracy" window gets smaller, until you have to really clean it.
 
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elh0102 said:
Regarding your RF experience, I think that the firing of a few HV rounds is, in effect, a form of cleaning out some leading from the SV ammo. After a traditional cleaning, it takes more rounds to get all of the cleaning agent out. My guess, if you used only the HV method of "cleaning", you might find your "accuracy" window gets smaller, until you have to really clean it.
Click to expand...
Definitely sounds plausible.
 
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