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Sound Meters and Measuring Noise

Question was something like, "What do you think of decibel meter X compared to decibel meter Y?"
Second question was something like, "Why is your method different/better than using a decibel meter?"

This is the long answer. You will need to understand what I did in THIS THREAD to follow the logic here.

The first point we need to make here is that YOU CAN NOT TRUST YOUR EARS. The response curve of the human ear is non-linear with respect to frequency. This means that you can hear two different frequencies which are exactly the same average power level and they will NOT sound like they are equally loud. You literally can not trust your ears. That said, if you trust your ears you are likely to come to a reasonable approximation of what "Billy Bob next door" does and does not hear. That is good enough for anyone who is only concerned about what his neighbors hear because their ears are as bad as your ears anyway. It is NOT good enough if you are wanting to prevent game from detecting your presence because game animals all have a different "hearing curve" from each other and from humans. Here are some interesting links about that. Dogs Hear, Cats Hear, Rabbits Hear, Squirrels Hear, Deer Hear, Pigeons are the most interesting of the lot...

Well clearly we are barely scratching the surface with recording equipment which is only intended to capture that which mere humans can hear. So there is your first take away, there is no simple way to study this problem scientifically. The only way to get absolute truth is to spend A LOT of money building a facility dedicated to the purpose and populated by equipment costing far more than the average person makes in a year. So we can either throw our hands up in disgust and declare that you can't measure it and you can't hear it so why bother, or we can endeavor to persevere:cool:? Fair enough. One man's opinion is as good as another's and you can certainly do it that way, it just can't be duplicated but it has "sort of" worked for a long time.

Having detailed the futility of this work we can now blissfully ignore reality and declare that we ONLY CARE ABOUT HUMANS :rolleyes: :sneaky:😁 ... problem solved. We don't care that deer, even squirrels can hear frequencies we can't even measure without a lab full of equipment. Now we can get to our trivial undertaking.

Lets talk about sound power. Specifically lets talk about RMS power level. RMS stands for Root Mean Square, it is the average power level over a finite time period. Maybe you want to know how much noise exposure you are getting from an airport. That is a continuous noise, perhaps it is busier during the day and less busy at night, but you can hear it continuously at your house. The average of that noise level (the RMS power) will vary based upon the "window" you look at when you average the sound. If you select a five minute window at 9am when the airport is very busy you might get an average level of 80 dBs RMS. That's pretty loud. If you select a five minute window at 11pm you might get 68 dBs because no plane landed during your five minute window. By the same token, you might use a one hour window and find that the RMS power at 9am is only 74 dB because you are averaging in more "quiet" time than you did with your 5 minute window. This same idea applies to our problem but in a very compressed way.

We want to measure a very high intensity, very short duration noise. If our "window" is too large, or our noise is not centered in the window we will get a different RMS power reading each time we measure it. If our window is too small and sampling doesn't index to the same start point we will get a different RMS power reading each time also. So before we can measure accurately we need to know when to start measuring and when to stop measuring. Enter the lowly "decibel meter" from Amazon. Most of them have a "slow" and a "fast" window. The less expensive ones have a "fast" window which is 125ms (that is 1/8 second). The duration of the event we are interested in measuring is about 1/10 (one tenth) of that. That means with the decibel meter we are averaging in 9 times more "data" than we want and it is "data" which is not "signal" but "noise". We only want about half the data contained in the "Just this part" shown on the inset (top left) below. The rest is noise. That entire sample is about 1/5 (one fifth) of the window on a low end "decibel meter" in fast mode.

just-this-part.jpg

The windowing function on a decibel meter works like this. It samples (at some unknown rate suppose 40kHz for convenience). As it samples it checks the absolute power level of the pulse it collects at that moment. It records that pulse and stores it in a bin which has a finite number of samples. For a 125ms window at 40kHz it would hold 5000 samples. Each time is samples it adds that data to the bin until the bin is full. (Remember this is a meter we can afford) At this point it checks the RMS value for that "window" and if it is larger than any measured thus far it displays it. It then empties the window and starts again checking every eighth of a second to see if that period was louder than the last period. A more expensive meter would have a "sliding window" and a very fast very expensive meter would run the RMS averaging process for every single sample. We are not talking about those measuring devices.

So the difference between recording the audio and analyzing the signal to identify the portion you want to measure and then isolating that portion and calculating the RMS power for that specific time period and using a $50.00 decibel meter to give you a "peak" value over a 125ms window is like the difference between a man with eyesight searching a room for a golf ball and a blind man searching the same room for that ball. Both men can do the job but one gets it done more quickly and with a whole lot less searching. Yes you CAN do it with a decibel meter.

So lets talk about that a moment. If you want to do it with a decibel meter, you have to take a LOT of samples, average them and take the standard deviation. That is you need to look at the collected data statistically. You do this already with muzzle velocities and chronographs and they are vastly more accurate than a dB meter. If you want to be fairly confident in your conclusions, I suggest you take a minimum of ten samples with each moderator then calculate the standard deviation and ES for that data in the same way that you do for muzzle velocities. You would do better to take thirty samples but ten is atleast more reliable than three or four samples averaged.

HOPE THAT HELPS
 
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Great post. Just a comment on going by ear only - while we may all be "bad" references, we are not all "equally bad" . . .

If you are a lifetime shooter/hunter and have probably been exposed to at least some PB shots without hearing protection over your life, don't be surprised if your non-shooting neighbor has issues with the airgun that you feel is extremely quiet. They probably can still hear much better than we can . . .
 
Due to exposure to noise at work I developed hearing loss at one particular frequency, this was partly rectified by me wearing hearing aids in both ears.

Some time later I was making a new moderator for one of my guns, when I tested it it sounded very, very quiet.now I have made some really good moderators in the past but this was on a whole new level🙂

Pleased with myself I went inside to make a cup of tea. I shouted upstairs to my wife to see if she would also like a drink, no reply! I shouted one more, still no reply so I went upstairs to ask again “would you like a cup of tea” she shouted back “yes, you would have heard me the first time if you had taken your ear plugs out”

It turned out that in a senior moment I hade inadvertently put ear plugs in rather than my hearing aids🤪

For a short period I honestly thought I had made the quietest moderator on the planet 😁😁😁

Bb
 
Most sound meters are inferior to using a suitable microphone, PC with software like Audicity to capture and post process the data. Sound meters throw away information whereas the audio waveform capture do not. e.g. if you gun has a 120db loud noise peak at 1000 Hz lasting for only 1ms I doubt that a sound meter would even include that one wave of noise in its reading. At best it would be average out to be meaningless. However it would stick out in a Audicity trace.

Of course what is suitable depends on what you are interested in and at what level of precision. All mics have some level of non-linear frequency and amplitude responses which will effect your sound measurements. Believe me all sound meters have the same issues! Also the ADC convertors of most PC as not the best. I have been lazy and used Audicity to measure sound levels using a old laptop with its built in microphone. IMO works well enough to compare the effectiveness between different LDCs and better than my ears and any sound meter I'm willing to pay for! In the future I think I will try using my UMIK-1 USB microphone. This eliminates the ADC problem and the mic's calibration files will reduce the non-linearity errors.
 
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As a lifelong shooter, you have to measure four distinct events when launching a projectile through the air:

1. Discharge of projectile
2. Noise level of action
3. Noise level of impact at target
4. Noise level of target falling to ground.


How are you going to accurately measure and suppress line items 2-4?
You can't do that with a suppressor. I thought I suggested that in my post HERE. You CAN accurately measure all of that, though.
 
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sonnysan,

Points 2 to 4 only matter, after you have done a good job suppressing number 1. The latter is what we are trying to do here.

While number 3 can be quite loud, number four does not seem like much of a concern, unless you are shooting a heavy raccoon in a tree, high above your neighbor's tin roof. Which sounds like something you should avoid doing.
 
sonnysan,

Points 2 to 4 only matter, after you have done a good job suppressing number 1. The latter is what we are trying to do here.

While number 3 can be quite loud, number four does not seem like much of a concern, unless you are shooting a heavy raccoon in a tree, high above your neighbor's tin roof. Which sounds like something you should avoid doing.
In this day and age, point 1 and 2 are the least concern. Point 3 is the loudest, followed by point 4. You can even hear the thud when they hit the ground with point 4. If you are going to get caught it will be on the receiving end of whatever you launched, that is certain. I can easily hear the impact of a slug hitting soft tissue 70 yards away. If any of you don't have experience with slugs, check out the report when this guy smashes Dussies from 3:30 - 5:00. Very similar to my experience with a 50FPE daystate air ranger using 25gr. H&N slugs. As you can see, point 3 is where you need suppression. Let me know when you can figure that out.

 
As a lifelong shooter, you have to measure four distinct events when launching a projectile through the air:

1. Discharge of projectile
2. Noise level of action
3. Noise level of impact at target
4. Noise level of target falling to ground.


How are you going to accurately measure and suppress line items 2-4?
Donny is right about the noise level of various actions (#2) but he doesn't go far enough into it to make it clear that the noise of the action (with PCPs) is much less than the noise of the muzzle blast even in a well tuned, moderately powered (for it's caliber) rifle.

EXAMPLE of #2 and #3 If you listen really closely you can just hear the sound of the muzzle blast. On that Talon the sound of the bottle ringing seems to be quite loud when you have your ear stuck to it. But it is undetectable down range, at least it was in that clip. That pretty much addresses the "noise of the action" problem. Let me explain this with a question. How loud IS a mouse fart, anyway?

Regarding #3, that sound is created by the creature we are trying to keep from detecting our presence (or did you think I was studying moderators to keep people from jumping the shot?). But I suppose if you have difficult neighbors you might want to build a quiet backstop. Or are you worried about shooting critters in your yard and trying to keep the neighbors from hearing that? Now if that is the case, and you are legally removing pests or hunting, then you are legal and the occasional event noise of you shooting said critter will most likely not be noticed by anyone, but you are legal so you really don't care, right? Now we come to the only case which matters, you want to keep the neighbors from hearing you shoot illegally in your back yard or from hearing you illegally remove a pest or hunt in an area where you aren't legally allowed. If THAT is the point of number three, I can't help you.

Regarding #4, I wont bother to explain that the critter you have just shot could care less about the noise of it's body hitting the ground, ONLY the animals near him and your neighbors near you will be bothered by this noise. That said, if you manage to build a moderator so quiet that #4 is an issue for you, you should seek a government contract. :ninja:
In this day and age, point 1 and 2 are the least concern. Point 3 is the loudest, followed by point 4. You can even hear the thud when they hit the ground with point 4.
In this day and age, when you study the design and construction of moderators #1 is your first priority. How do I build a moderator which can eliminate muzzle blast. That is the essence of the study. Since it is impossible it is an interesting problem. Items #2, #3, and #4 are utterly beyond the scope of that study.

That is NOT to say we should not build mechanically quieter rifles. We should but that is a DIFFERENT problem.
If you are going to get caught
This is problematic. You don't get caught doing what is legal.
it will be on the receiving end of whatever you launched, that is certain. I can easily hear the impact of a slug hitting soft tissue 70 yards away. If any of you don't have experience with slugs, check out the report when this guy smashes Dussies from 3:30 - 5:00. Very similar to my experience with a 50FPE daystate air ranger using 25gr. H&N slugs. As you can see, point 3 is where you need suppression.
Why? I hunt squirrels, ground hogs, the occasional racoon, or other pest. Why do I care if the animal I am trying to take "hears" the impact? For that matter, if the moderator is doing it's primary function well enough, the nearby animals will not panic, rather they will often become confused long enough for you to get that second shot. This again begs the question, "Why are you afraid of getting caught?"
Let me know when you can figure that out.
I think I have it figured out, "Don't do anything illegal and you will be fine on points #3 and #4"
 
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In this day and age, point 1 and 2 are the least concern. Point 3 is the loudest, followed by point 4. You can even hear the thud when they hit the ground with point 4. If you are going to get caught it will be on the receiving end of whatever you launched, that is certain. I can easily hear the impact of a slug hitting soft tissue 70 yards away. If any of you don't have experience with slugs, check out the report when this guy smashes Dussies from 3:30 - 5:00. Very similar to my experience with a 50FPE daystate air ranger using 25gr. H&N slugs. As you can see, point 3 is where you need suppression. Let me know when you can figure that out.

The suppression for point #3 involves using 10grain .177 slugs. Just as dead, just not “smashed”, but they don’t need to be “smashed” when you’re not fishing for likes on YT.
 
The suppression for point #3 involves using 10grain .177 slugs. Just as dead, just not “smashed”, but they don’t need to be “smashed” when you’re not fishing for likes on YT.
Not true. I can hear a .177 12.5gr. NSA slug impact at 65 yards (I metered the shot) using a 18.5FPE Logun Solo from my own personal experience.
 
If you are going to get caught it will be on the receiving end of whatever you launched, that is certain.
Caught by who? This sounds like you are implying people want quiet rifles to break the law. I have nothing to catch me except the prey I am taking the shot at if I some how mess my shot up. I could care less if a neighbor or passer by hears me shooting and killing something since it is a legal shot and kill. If they call the local authorities so what they will stop in ask me a couple questions and think my airgun is cool and leave. In fact I killed about 6 of my neighbors peacocks and about a dozen guinea fowl after they came on to my property getting on my vehicles. The sheriff showed up and laughed as he walked up to the dead birds laying in my driveway. So who are you worried about catching you?
 
Caught by who? This sounds like you are implying people want quiet rifles to break the law. I have nothing to catch me except the prey I am taking the shot at if I some how mess my shot up. I could care less if a neighbor or passer by hears me shooting and killing something since it is a legal shot and kill. If they call the local authorities so what they will stop in ask me a couple questions and think my airgun is cool and leave. In fact I killed about 6 of my neighbors peacocks and about a dozen guinea fowl after they came on to my property getting on my vehicles. The sheriff showed up and laughed as he walked up to the dead birds laying in my driveway. So who are you worried about catching you?
I don't want anyone to know what I'm doing with airguns, legally, worldwide. Where I live, even receiving and shipping an optic raises eyebrows. Possessing "ammo" such as pellets is a problem. Having an LDC? Don't even mention it. The wife, who is educated with a masters, thinks I'm up to nefarious deeds - even thinking it's illegal - every time I bullet cast. Even family on both sides don't support "guns" in anyway, so the lower the profile the better. Don't want PD to show up either - even for a friendly visit.
 
If you want to keep truly a low profile I would suggest not posting on public forums. Anything on the internet cell phone text messages even voicemails or voice calls I assume some agency has access to them. So the mere fact that you are mentioning these things may draw unwanted attention towards you. Even more so than the ACT itself!
 
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I don't want anyone to know what I'm doing with airguns, legally, worldwide. Where I live, even receiving and shipping an optic raises eyebrows. Possessing "ammo" such as pellets is a problem. Having an LDC? Don't even mention it. The wife, who is educated with a masters, thinks I'm up to nefarious deeds - even thinking it's illegal - every time I bullet cast. Even family on both sides don't support "guns" in anyway, so the lower the profile the better. Don't want PD to show up either - even for a friendly visit.
You work for/with the government so what is the problem?

It's unfortunate about your family. Maybe you should embrace them with the technology and show them how much fun it can be rather than hide things. When you are hiding things it makes you look guilty even when you are not guilty. Preempt that problem by greeting them at the door and inviting them out back to shoot. Don't start them off with the 50 BMG or shooting that racoon that has been in the garbage the last five nights in a row, just hand them a nice HW30 with a good optic on it and watch them smile. After all every male among them had a BB gun when they were 12 (if they are as old as I am, anyway) and every female wanted one but wasn't allowed to ask.

There are things you can change and there are things you can not change. Know the difference. You will be a lot happier man.

If you are wanting a silencer for a big bore AG and you want to have a piece of paper to satisfy your spouse and your inlaws you can always just go get a stamp to build one (IIRC that is $200) or simply buy a PB silencer, get the ticket (IIRC that is $200) and be done with it. Anyone says anything at all you can hold up that "stamp" and say "The Agency Which May Not Be Named Approves now shut up and leave me alone." Worst case but problem solved.

You are a grown man. You are allowed to do you until they make a law which says you are not. If the rest of the family doesn't understand that. The rest of the family has a problem, not you.
 
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