GX CS4 dry air modification

Although the few silica beads I put inside a small filter is still blue after I filled 2 guns, one 210cc from 120 to 200 the other a 320cc from 150 to 300. The purge valve didn't let out even one drop of water. Since I'm a man of science and believe in conversation of mass. All the water molecules in the air I pumped into the guns have to be accounted for. Because I didn't see any water from the purge and the silica beads are still orange, I only can conclude that the water must be inside the guns! The only rational solution if to install a pre or post water filter or both. I chose a pre-filter because I mostly fill guns and don't want to waste time filling a large post filter. My setup is the front end of what I was using to source the air into my motorized hand pump.

Oil less air compressor -> regulator 80 PSI -> oil dirt filter -> large silica bead filter (> 1QT) -> regulator 1/2 PSI -> input port of the CS4.

Pressurizing the air before the very large silica filter helps trap the water faster and more completely, then regulating it to only 1/2 will not significantly stress the CS4. If may swap out my 0-15 PSI gauge to a gauge that reads vacuum to low pressure like +-5 psi if I can find one cheap.

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First, congratulations on choosing to be a man of science, and concluding that your small amount of beads (IIRC, it was about 5 grams or so) could not have captured all the water vapor. They probably got some of it, but not all - but they may have captured more than you think. Based on what you wrote, you pumped about 65 liters of air, and a rough guess has that bringing about 0.75 grams of water vapor into the system. 5 grams of silica could probably hold that without turning color completely, but they would probably be "less blue" since that would put them at about 15% saturated if they did get it all, but the dwell time would need to be high enough to capture it, and it probably is not high enough with the size of that small filter. But all that is just approximate as I don't know the temp and RH of the input air . . . .

Second, I think your drying technique is awesome - that will last a LONG time before it turns color - I know because that is how I feed my Shoebox compressor, and with ~1.75 pounds of sillica in the drier mine barely starts to turn at even ~300 cubic meters of pumped air, or about 5000 times as much as your small test (mine gets to about 7% water weight at that point - still a long way from saturation but I dry it anyways as it is still only once every 4 years or so).

If I am reading what you wrote correctly, you are regulating the filtered air back down to 0.5 psi? Given that you are in Iowa, that won't even be back to full atmospheric pressure at sea level, so you could go a bit higher with no problem, and that would reduce your fill times further. The main thing though is to make sure that the regulator is keeping up with the pump so you don't actually draw less air than you otherwise would. A bit of "buffer space" in the system after the regulator would certainly help with that, even if it was just from a long line feeding the compressor.

Nice set up!
 
I'm using a higher flow regulator that vents air even if the input is blocked to maintain the pressure within a narrow band. I don't see the gauge needle moving at all unlike normal regulators that have a pressure drop dependent on flow.

FYI for other feeling comfortable about their water filtration. There is a reason that SCUBA compressors have multiple water traps on the compressor followed by a large filter before the air enters the tank. Each level removes some water. Relying on the small condensing water trap on the final stage of the CS4 and just adding a small filter with only a tampon inside doesn't do much IMO. But it your guns and tanks , your choice.

There are 1000 liters in a cubic meter. So if you have a 9L tank and fill it to 300 bar that would take 9*300/1000=2.7 cubic meters of air. For those that think is is OK it fill tanks inside (assuming AC) or live in the dry dessert. Assuming even a low 10% relative humidity you still have to filter out 8.81*2.7=23.8 grams of water which is about 24cc of water or 24 cc * (1 teaspoon / 4.92892 cc) ≈ 4.87 teaspoons.

It doesn't matter if you only pump when it is dry, never let the compressor get hot, don't have any water when you bleed the compressor. Don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about your setup unless you can account for how you captured those 4.87 teaspoons of water! That example is only if you have a 10% relative humidity level. A more realistic number would be 30% or more so where is the 14.6 teaspoons, or 2.4 oz of water.


Relative Humidity (%)Grams of Water per Cubic Meter
108.81
2017.62
3026.43
4035.25
5044.06
6052.87
7061.68
8070.49
9079.31
10088.12
These values were calculated using the formula for calculating water vapor pressure and then converted to grams per cubic meter using ideal gas law principles at the given temperature (70°F).
 
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Oh wow I live in SC & we are a 58 & higher all year
I used to live in logsden Oregon and except for summer it must have been 80% humidity.. no idea what summer was but doing hay every night the top of the wind rows looked like a light rain and under the wind rows was wet from ground moisture.. so I always had to wait until 11 or so to start turning over the wind rows to dry the rest out..
all metal equipment sweated in the barn and I actually had to tarp the top of the high quality hay to keep the condensation dripping off the roof to not ruin the hay.. people have no idea how much water is in the air.. we actually ran a dehumidifier 24 hours a day in the house.. 5 gallons of water every day..
I remember there emptying the moisture trap twice every fill.. and that was inside..
draining the big 220 shop compressor would run a stream out the door of the shop.. probably around 5 gallon on a good work day..
I like your idea about using the shop compressor to take out the majority of moisture.. but I have a couple questions..
so what happens if you put lets just say 100 PSI into the airgun compressor? id like to think it would be ok since it is rated much higher pressure.. plus it seems like it might be slightly less work for the airgun compressor..
second question is, well I am a welder so I have a purging gas bottle.. nitrogen.. I know that it's compatible with airguns.. for that matter my argon might be although I don't know if argon affects seals.. anyway I remember seeing awhile back and I think it was a booster, so once your bottle is lower than the fill pressure, it would use out the the bottle and then boost it's pressure up.. I don't remember how they worked or where to get them.. does anyone know anything about it??
for those of you who either don't have a compressor or have a hard time finding a fill station.. I have a fireman tank and airgun archery fun in Canada sells the fill station that fits those tanks.. so I just thought I'd put this out there.. the fitting that screws onto the fireman tanks is the identical one as the nitrogen tank from the welding supply.. so a person can easily switch to nitrogen, also the welding supply has high compressed air tanks for those of us who use plasma cutter or a 3 hose oxy/acetylene torch out in the field.. so if you find it difficult to get air, go to the welding supply and get either compressed air or nitrogen.. if you go through airgas, you can either rent the bottle or buy it and they just exchange, so no recertify or anything.. just exchange and pay for the gas.. hopefully it will help someone..
I also have a spare regulator for oxygen and it screws on the fireman tanks, so I plan on putting a shop air fitting on the end because occasionally I need to use the air nail gun and just for a few shots who wants to move the shop compressor..
Mark
 
Although the few silica beads I put inside a small filter is still blue after I filled 2 guns, one 210cc from 120 to 200 the other a 320cc from 150 to 300. The purge valve didn't let out even one drop of water. Since I'm a man of science and believe in conversation of mass. All the water molecules in the air I pumped into the guns have to be accounted for. Because I didn't see any water from the purge and the silica beads are still orange, I only can conclude that the water must be inside the guns! The only rational solution if to install a pre or post water filter or both. I chose a pre-filter because I mostly fill guns and don't want to waste time filling a large post filter. My setup is the front end of what I was using to source the air into my motorized hand pump.

Oil less air compressor -> regulator 80 PSI -> oil dirt filter -> large silica bead filter (> 1QT) -> regulator 1/2 PSI -> input port of the CS4.

Pressurizing the air before the very large silica filter helps trap the water faster and more completely, then regulating it to only 1/2 will not significantly stress the CS4. If may swap out my 0-15 PSI gauge to a gauge that reads vacuum to low pressure like +-5 psi if I can find one cheap.

View attachment 437068

View attachment 437071
View attachment 437072
your compressor looks just like my Omega trail charger except the trail charger is black..
do you ever use it to fill a bottle.. just recently got a 30 minute fireman tank and I am hoping to fill it with the compressor.. figured it was taken several times with rest in between.. don't figure I'd want to run more than a half hour max.. it fills up my 480cc bottle on my rifle and doesn't even get warm..
Mark
 
I wouldn't recommend boosting the air input to the compressor. As my other posting shows there is only a 25% reduction from full rated motor load when the output pressure is very low. So they is little to be gain unless you want to exceed the rated power your motor will draw, leading to failure or a shortened lifespan.

Argon is one of the inert gases so I wouldn't expect any problems with material compatibility. I don't know if it leaks more than nitrogen as helium does.
 
I'll admit I don't have a CS4, but given that the pump is rated to 400 bar, I would not have any issues in feeding one a few psi of air on the input side for filling tanks to ~300 bar. Here is why . . .

This compressor is a 2 stage unit, and a rating of 400 bar implies that it has a compression ratio of ~20:1 on each cylinder, which I will admit is high. But all these air compressors use some form of check valve on each cylinder - meaning the air flows through the valve when pressure is below the upstream pressure past the valve, but can't flow back. That makes them somewhat "self balancing" in terms of load - neither stage will operate anywhere near "full pressure" when the peak output is well below the rated output.

Now if we shift our thinking from "gauge pressure" to "absolute pressure", we realize that when we turn it on at sea level we are feeding it 1 bar of air pressure (or ~14.5 psi), and to get to max pressure it is compressing that 1 bar of air ~20:1 in each stage. If we feed it air under pressure, for example 2 bar absolute (or 1 bar / 14.5 psi on a gauge), that absolutely would overload it if we ran it to max because we actually would be running it twice as high as designed - of course the motor would possibly stall, or more likely the burst disc would pop. But if we are not running it that high then the compressor really does not notice the difference in most regards because the pressure and load self balances - the power needed to pump to a given level below rated capacity would be the same. Of course this has limits - there clearly would be a level of boosting that would "lock up" the pump as there would not be enough volume for compressed air after the first stage check valve to accommodate the amount of compression occurring - but small amounts of boost would not be a problem.

Of course the big issue is heat - the compressor would be doing twice as much work on each stroke, thus generating twice the heat. That in itself is bad, but if we operate well below rated capacity then the heat load is still far below the max design constraint anyways - we probably would not generate more heat pumping 2 bar absolute (one bar of boosted) air to 3000 psi than we would pumping one bar gauge (base operation) to 5800 psi.

So I think it is all about striking the right balance with it. Personally, If I had the set up that @BlackICE has I'd give a a try of boosting the input air maybe 4 psi or so and see how it performed - but only for filling no higher than 310 bar/4500 psi. If it worked well and I was filling to only ~200 bar I'd consider maybe up to about 7 psi (1/2 bar). Doing so would cut the fill times by ~25% and ~50% respectively.

I can say that while I don't have one of these pumps, I did once accidentally make a big mistake with my Shoebox compressor (those use a shop compressor as the first stage, and then two more stages internally to get to 4500 psi). I was testing theories out and had disabled the original mechanical pressure switch to see how that impacted controlled fill times (since the way it worked resulted in a loss of compression stroke distance) and I did not have the fill valve on the 45 min tank opened properly. The compressor ran fine with no signs of stress, and the only way I noticed the error was when the burst disc blew at about 7500 psi (517 bar). Scared the crap out of me, but all was fine with the compressor - swapped out the disc and the unit was no worse for it. That same compressor now has over 300 hours on it and still runs like new . . . .
 
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I'll admit I don't have a CS4, but given that the pump is rated to 400 bar, I would not have any issues in feeding one a few psi of air on the input side for filling tanks to ~300 bar. Here is why . . .

This compressor is a 2 stage unit, and a rating of 400 bar implies that it has a compression ratio of ~20:1 on each cylinder, which I will admit is high. But all these air compressors use some form of check valve on each cylinder - meaning the air flows through the valve when pressure is below the upstream pressure past the valve, but can't flow back. That makes them somewhat "self balancing" in terms of load - neither stage will operate anywhere near "full pressure" when the peak output is well below the rated output.

Now if we shift our thinking from "gauge pressure" to "absolute pressure", we realize that when we turn it on at sea level we are feeding it 1 bar of air pressure (or ~14.5 psi), and to get to max pressure it is compressing that 1 bar of air ~20:1 in each stage. If we feed it air under pressure, for example 2 bar absolute (or 1 bar / 14.5 psi on a gauge), that absolutely would overload it if we ran it to max because we actually would be running it twice as high as designed - of course the motor would possibly stall, or more likely the burst disc would pop. But if we are not running it that high then the compressor really does not notice the difference in most regards because the pressure and load self balances - the power needed to pump to a given level below rated capacity would be the same. Of course this has limits - there clearly would be a level of boosting that would "lock up" the pump as there would not be enough volume for compressed air after the first stage check valve to accommodate the amount of compression occurring - but small amounts of boost would not be a problem.

Of course the big issue is heat - the compressor would be doing twice as much work on each stroke, thus generating twice the heat. That in itself is bad, but if we operate well below rated capacity then the heat load is still far below the max design constraint anyways - we probably would not generate more heat pumping 2 bar absolute (one bar of boosted) air to 3000 psi than we would pumping one bar gauge (base operation) to 5800 psi.

So I think it is all about striking the right balance with it. Personally, If I had the set up that @BlackICE has I'd give a a try of boosting the input air maybe 4 psi or so and see how it performed - but only for filling no higher than 310 bar/4500 psi. If it worked well and I was filling to only ~200 bar I'd consider maybe up to about 7 psi (1/2 bar). Doing so would cut the fill times by ~25% and ~50% respectively.

I can say that while I don't have one of these pumps, I did once accidentally make a big mistake with my Shoebox compressor (those use a shop compressor as the first stage, and then two more stages internally to get to 4500 psi). I was testing theories out and had disabled the original mechanical pressure switch to see how that impacted controlled fill times (since the way it worked resulted in a loss of compression stroke distance) and I did not have the fill valve on the 45 min tank opened properly. The compressor ran fine with no signs of stress, and the only way I noticed the error was when the burst disc blew at about 7500 psi (517 bar). Scared the crap out of me, but all was fine with the compressor - swapped out the disc and the unit was no worse for it. That same compressor now has over 300 hours on it and still runs like new . . . .
I believe the CS4 is a 4-stage unit. And it seems to only have small, flexible metal (reed) valves, not a true (spring-loaded) check valve.
 
I'll admit I don't have a CS4, but given that the pump is rated to 400 bar, I would not have any issues in feeding one a few psi of air on the input side for filling tanks to ~300 bar. Here is why . . .

This compressor is a 2 stage unit, and a rating of 400 bar implies that it has a compression ratio of ~20:1 on each cylinder, which I will admit is high. But all these air compressors use some form of check valve on each cylinder - meaning the air flows through the valve when pressure is below the upstream pressure past the valve, but can't flow back. That makes them somewhat "self balancing" in terms of load - neither stage will operate anywhere near "full pressure" when the peak output is well below the rated output.

Now if we shift our thinking from "gauge pressure" to "absolute pressure", we realize that when we turn it on at sea level we are feeding it 1 bar of air pressure (or ~14.5 psi), and to get to max pressure it is compressing that 1 bar of air ~20:1 in each stage. If we feed it air under pressure, for example 2 bar absolute (or 1 bar / 14.5 psi on a gauge), that absolutely would overload it if we ran it to max because we actually would be running it twice as high as designed - of course the motor would possibly stall, or more likely the burst disc would pop. But if we are not running it that high then the compressor really does not notice the difference in most regards because the pressure and load self balances - the power needed to pump to a given level below rated capacity would be the same. Of course this has limits - there clearly would be a level of boosting that would "lock up" the pump as there would not be enough volume for compressed air after the first stage check valve to accommodate the amount of compression occurring - but small amounts of boost would not be a problem.

Of course the big issue is heat - the compressor would be doing twice as much work on each stroke, thus generating twice the heat. That in itself is bad, but if we operate well below rated capacity then the heat load is still far below the max design constraint anyways - we probably would not generate more heat pumping 2 bar absolute (one bar of boosted) air to 3000 psi than we would pumping one bar gauge (base operation) to 5800 psi.

So I think it is all about striking the right balance with it. Personally, If I had the set up that @BlackICE has I'd give a a try of boosting the input air maybe 4 psi or so and see how it performed - but only for filling no higher than 310 bar/4500 psi. If it worked well and I was filling to only ~200 bar I'd consider maybe up to about 7 psi (1/2 bar). Doing so would cut the fill times by ~25% and ~50% respectively.

I can say that while I don't have one of these pumps, I did once accidentally make a big mistake with my Shoebox compressor (those use a shop compressor as the first stage, and then two more stages internally to get to 4500 psi). I was testing theories out and had disabled the original mechanical pressure switch to see how that impacted controlled fill times (since the way it worked resulted in a loss of compression stroke distance) and I did not have the fill valve on the 45 min tank opened properly. The compressor ran fine with no signs of stress, and the only way I noticed the error was when the burst disc blew at about 7500 psi (517 bar). Scared the crap out of me, but all was fine with the compressor - swapped out the disc and the unit was no worse for it. That same compressor now has over 300 hours on it and still runs like new . . . .
Review the power consumption table and video evidence. https://www.airgunnation.com/thread...sumption-at-various-output-pressures.1306998/

Assuming you want to stay within the 350w motor rating, I'm estimating a best case 12.5% better throughput filling from empty to 300 bar.

I gave automated boost input control a lot of thought when I was running a motorized hand pump. In that case the output could be doubled if you optimize the input pressure. The mode of failure if the input pressure was too high was a stalled motor. Very bad! With the hand pump any input pressures under 100 psi wouldn't increase the maximum force on the handle on the downstroke. It only increased the work done on the downstroke as the maximum force has a longer stroke length. This is true because once the force on the handle increases the pressure on the final stage to match the gun or tank's pressure the handle moves downward without any increase in force. However converting the rotation motion of the motor to a linear stroke motion using a crankarm creates a variable "gear ratio" cam action having the most mechanical leverage at TDC and BDC and the worst in between those points. So as you increase the input pressure you move the location of where the maximum force is needed up from BDC towards TDC until the leverage isn't enough for the motor's output torque and the motor stalls. If you do this to failure on the CS4 it will stress the power supply and motor windings. Not something I willing to risk for a best case 12.5% gain.
 
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Review the power consumption table and video evidence. https://www.airgunnation.com/thread...sumption-at-various-output-pressures.1306998/

Assuming you want to stay within the 350w motor rating, I'm estimating a best case 12.5% better throughput filling from empty to 300 bar.

I gave automated boost input control a lot of thought when I was running a motorized hand pump. In that case the output could be doubled if you optimize the input pressure. The mode of failure if the input pressure was too high was a stalled motor. Very bad! With the hand pump any input pressures under 100 psi wouldn't increase the maximum force on the handle on the downstroke. It only increased the work done on the downstroke as the maximum force has a longer stroke length. This is true because once the force on the handle increases the pressure on the final stage to match the gun or tank's pressure the handle moves downward without any increase in force. However converting the rotation motion of the motor to a linear stroke motion using a crankarm creates a variable "gear ratio" cam action having the most mechanical leverage at TDC and BDC and the worst in between those points. So as you increase the input pressure you move the location of where the maximum force is needed up from BDC towards TDC until the leverage isn't enough for the motor's output torque and the motor stalls. If you do this to failure on the CS4 it will stress the power supply and motor windings. Not something I willing to risk for a best case 12.5% gain.
Having taken my compressor apart on day 1, and trying to move the crank arm by hand with the motor off (had to use a screwdriver as a pry bar), as well as trying to stop the crank while the motor was turning (impossible!) leads me to believe there will be no issues with "too much" air being pumped in.

I also inadvertently stopped the pump and re-started it twice with 250bar in the system. Oops, my bad! But it started up just fine, like it was no big deal. (Not a practice I will continue, however!)
 
That's not unexpected. The reduction gearbox probably has a ratio of over 50:1 and the maximum force on the end of crank is over 150 lbs at TDC and BDT given my est of the final stage piston diameter. Low cost Chinese compressors are not known to be over engineered with great quality control. So running the motor at more than the rated current would likely over stress many parts leading to an early death!

If you hook up a peak current meter to the motor lead you would be shocked that the current draw when you power up with 250 bar on the output compared to starting with 0 bar at the output.
 
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I ran some more tests and the measurements were a little different from the 1st time.

At 0 PSI boost the CS4's power supply used 435 watts at 400 bar and took 29 secs to reach 300 bar.
At 3 PSI boost the CS4's power supply used 435 watts at 300 bar and took 25 secs.
At 4 PSI boost the CS4's power supply used 435 watts at only 230 bar and that took 18 sec.

So if I only fill to 300 bar then boosting the input pressure to 3 psi will load the motor about the same as going all the way to 400 bar. To be conservative I think I will set the boost pressure to 2 psi and I only fill to 300 bar.

So Alan is right you can boost the input pressure if you only fill to 300 bar but the gains are about 16% faster.
 
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